TOBIN: Have you ever had the experience of watching a movie as a child and really liking it, but then going back as an adult and being like, “Oh my god. I missed, like, half of this.”

KATHY: Yes, yes. Absolutely.

TOBIN: So my experience with that was being a kid and watching When Harry Met Sally with my brother and sister, who are much older —

KATHY: Mhm.

TOBIN: — and being like, “This movie’s so funny. I love it!” [PAUSE] But then, there was that one scene where Meg Ryan is in the deli and she … starts, in my mind, just screaming out of nowhere.

[THEME BACKGROUND HORN FLOURISHES START]

KATHY [BABYINGLY]: Tobin!

TOBIN: Like, baby Tobin was like, “Huh. She’s just kind of yelling, for no reason. [KATHY LAUGHS] I don’t get it. And then they just eat their sandwiches afterward like nothing happened. [KATHY LAUGHS MORE] But, okay, I guess that’s funny. I guess that’s what adults do. They just yell out of nowhere.” And then as an adult I went back and was like —

[BACKGROUND HORNS STOP]

TOBIN: — “Oh, fake orgasm! Ha ha ha ha ha!” [BOTH LAUGH]

[THEME MUSIC PLAYS]

VOX 1: From WNYC Studios, you’re listening to “Nancy.”

VOX 2: With your hosts, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS, WHISTLE]

TOBIN: So, Kath, we are super excited because today we’re sharing audio from some of our recent “Nancy” live shows!

KATHY: Yes! Otherwise known as “Kathy Takes a Beta Blocker!”

TOBIN: [CHUCKLES] Yes. So this is gonna be a mix of stuff from two different shows we’ve done over the past couple months, and we’re gonna start with a show at the Bell House in Brooklyn that was part of WNYC’s “Werk It Festival.”

KATHY: So, we opened that show with, like, this half-competition, half-live experiment in front of an audience.

TOBIN: Yeah! We had a hypothesis, we had test subjects, we had audio clips. We even had a slideshow! Which — side note — we’re gonna jump in here and there just to let you know what’s going on with the visuals.

KATHY: And, like every experiment, ours started with an observation —

[AUDIENCE CHEERS AND APPLAUDS]

TOBIN: Many queer people get asked to officiate straight weddings. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

KATHY: It’s true, it’s true.

TOBIN: Yeah.

KATHY: I’ve been asked. Tobin’s been asked.

TOBIN: Right.

KATHY: What’s the deal? [BOTH LAUGH, AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Yeah, perhaps they want that particular umami flavor of oppression [PAUSE, AUDIENCE LAUGHS] at their wedding [PAUSE] just sprinkled lightly over? Um, but Kathy and I have formed a hypothesis. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

KATHY: Why do I think queer people get asked to officiate all the time?

TOBIN: Put simply, we’re better at it. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Every time I've been at a wedding where a person has officiated, they have killed it. Right? They’re, like — they're funny. They're charming. But they also get the gravitas of the day! [KATHY LAUGHS]

KATHY: And we're not, like — well, I guess we’re not weighed down by a lifetime of wedding norms and expectations. There's so many rules, you guys!

TOBIN: Right.

KATHY: There’s so many.

TOBIN: We think of it more as a hilarious experiment. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

KATHY: So we decided to test out our theory. We decided to have two co-workers — one gay, one straight — to officiate a fake ceremony to see who was better. First, gay specimen.  

TOBIN: Who are you and how do you know Kathy and I?

MATT COLLETTE: I’m Matt. I’m your senior producer — and only producer.

TOBIN: And [LONG PAUSE] friend!

MATT COLLETTE: Yeah, sure. [TOBIN LAUGHS WEAKLY]

KATHY: Former producer Matt Collette has a lot of advantages. He has officiated two weddings. And also, he has a lot of opinions about what not to do at a wedding.

[WHIMSICAL BIG BAND MUSIC]

MATT COLLETTE: Some people are like, “We're just going to do the vows.” They walk down, they’re up there for, like, three minutes. I hate that, ‘cause they are too short. Flip side, cannot be too long. I do not really want to go to mass at your wedding. I want, like, two good readings. I generally don't like poetry at weddings. But I also just generally don't like poetry. The garter toss is really boring and at one point you're standing there trying to catch your cousin's underwear.

KATHY: What?! [TOBIN LAUGHS]

MATT COLLETTE: It’s terrible. I once also caught the bouquet by accident.

[BIG BAND MUSIC ENDS]

KATHY: Challenging Matthew Collette in this competition will be …

TOBIN: Our very sweet co-worker Matthew Larson. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Now, Matthew, has never officiated a wedding before, and he was also really nervous when I went to his desk and said, “You have to do this.” [KATHY LAUGHS, AUDIENCE LAUGHS] But before you count him out, you should know that Matthew has one major advantage.

MATTHEW LARSON: G’day mate.

TOBIN: He’s Australian! [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Australian accents make everything sound so much better.

KATHY: It’s true, it’s true.

TOBIN: We are obsessed. I had so many questions.

TOBIN: Do people in Australia really put shrimps on the barbie?

MATTHEW LARSON: They put prawns on the barbie.

TOBIN: Um, and Kathy, you also just spent the first part of the taping asking him about Australian celebrities.

KATHY: What about Nicole Kidman?

MATTHEW LARSON: I think she’s pretty — pretty big.

KATHY: Yeah, okay.

MATTHEW LARSON: Hugh —

KATHY: Hugh Jackman.

MATTHEW LARSON: Hugh Jackman.

KATHY: Got it.

MATTHEW LARSON: He’s pretty big news.

KATHY:  He’s big news. Got it. The Hemsworth brothers?

MATTHEW LARSON: Big news.

KATHY: Yeah.

KATHY: [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] It felt important.

TOBIN: Big news. Big news.

KATHY: Okay, so now all we needed was a couple for them to officiate. But where, Tobin, to find a couple who’d be willing to get fake married for our mere podcast?

[AUDIENCE SAYS “AWW”]

KATHY: Okay, so I’m gonna jump in here to say that that “aww” you’re hearing in the audience? It’s in response to a photo of Tobin and me standing in a hallway, looking sheepishly at each others’ feet as sunlight floods in through the window! We legit look like we’re in love. But, like, with each other.

TOBIN: Okay. Two things, real quick — Number One, if you listen to the podcast, you know this is never happening.

KATHY: Otherwise you’re very confused. [KATHY CHUCKLES]

TOBIN: Second Thing — we legit took these photos as a promo for the podcast and then we got them back [KATHY LAUGHS] and we're like, “Oh no, it's just an engagement photo! [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] We cannot use these.”

KATHY: Except for now! We found a use for them. Alright, so here are the rules of this competition. Each officiant will get one day to write a short speech for a theoretical wedding. Umm, they can say whatever they want, as long as they have some musing on love and marriage.

TOBIN: Right. And then Kathy and I are going to vote on who we think was better.

KATHY: Yeah.

TOBIN: But before we send them off to write, we gave them five minutes to ask Kathy and I any questions that would help them with their officiating duties. Anything about our relationship, how we met … anything that was going to help.

TOBIN: You can ask us any questions for five minutes, starting now.

MATTHEW LARSON: Like, now?

TOBIN: Yes.

[OLD-TIMEY RADIO MUSIC PLAYS, COMPLETE WITH CRACKLY AUDIO QUALITY]

MATTHEW LARSON: How long have you guys been together?

MATT COLLETTE: Do you guys have an interest in like a higher power? Is there something that brought us together, or is it just you guys?

MATTHEW LARSON: What are some of your common interests?

TOBIN: Not going to parties?

KATHY: Oh my god, I love not doing that. [KATHY AND TOBIN LAUGH]

MATT COLLETTE: Why do you want to get married to each other?

TOBIN:  Kathy and I make good partners because we are very yin and yang in a way that works.

MATTHEW LARSON: What's your favorite memory that you have of spending time together?

KATHY: We took a long trip. And at the end of the trip we didn't kill each other. That’s when I was like, “This is it!”

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

TOBIN: That was so recent. That was when you were like, “This is for real!”? [KATHY LAUGHS] That was, like, this past year.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

MATT COLLETTE: What do you think marriage is? What does it mean to you?

KATHY: It is … some of the hardest work you'll ever do.

MATT COLLETTE: Who told you that?

KATHY: I viewed it from my parents. [KATHY LAUGHS]

MATT COLLETTE: How will your marriage affect me, professionally and personally?

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Oh, it’s gonna make it so much worse.

MATT COLLETTE: Oh no!

[OLD-TIMEY RADIO MUSIC ENDS ABRUPTLY AS AN IPHONE TIMER NOISE GOES OFF]

TOBIN: And time is up! [KATHY LAUGHS]

TOBIN: So with their time up, we sent them off to work on their ceremonies.

KATHY: So the next day we pulled, umm, each of them back in the studio for our fake wedding ceremony. And first up is former “Nancy” producer and homosexual [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Matt Collette. Matt walked in extremely cocky, extremely relaxed.

TOBIN: Wait. Okay, so, before we get into your sermon, I just want to ask you — what was your process in putting together your ceremony for today?

MATT COLLETTE: So, uhh, it's 1:42 right now. [TOBIN LAUGHS] About an hour ago —

TOBIN: Uh-huh.

MATT COLLETTE: — I remembered that I had to do this and then I leaned over and asked you what I was supposed to do, and then you told me, and then I did a couple of other things. And then at, like, 1:05 to 1:20, maybe, I wrote on four Post-Its.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Oof. Real cocky. Okay, so let's all get in the mood. I want you to imagine Kathy and I, perhaps in matching suits.

KATHY: Mhm. Umm, definitely there will be a little dog coming down the aisle with a little — little pillow on top, with the rings on top of that.

TOBIN: Right? A droid will fly over our heads and drop matching wedding veils over us. [KATHY LAUGHS, AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Doves are cooing nearby to celebrate our love. And with that, Matt Collette begins his ceremony.

MATT COLLETTE: And now, before you take your vows, I’m gonna give a little speech.

TOBIN: I'm gonna close my eyes for this.

KATHY: Yeah. Me, too.

MATT COLLETTE: Hello everyone. I'm Matt. I'm Tobin and Kathy’s senior producer and — they also said I needed to note — “friend.” The first thing I ever knew about Tobin and Kathy was that they were gay.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

MATT COLLETTE: And then the second thing I ever knew about them was that they were best friends. And that was basically their whole podcast pitch. [KATHY AND TOBIN LAUGH] So I knew that they had this, like, meaningful and deep relationship … professional, personal. But I was really surprised when they were like, “Matt, we want to get married.” [KATHY AND TOBIN LAUGH] I was a little taken aback for a variety of reasons. One — of course, they're both in serious relationships with other people.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

MATT COLLETTE: Two — to the best of my knowledge, this wedding doesn’t align with their sexualities. At all. And third, I guess, just because marriage is bigger than friendship. It's even bigger than maybe a work marriage — work-wife, work-husband. It's bigger than all of that. Because marriage is a promise. It's not one you take lightly. It's a promise you make in public, surrounded by your loved ones. It's something that people have fought hard for, and waited their entire lifetimes for. The vows you’re about to take probably say something about how you're gonna stay together for richer and poorer, sicker and in health, as long as you both shall live. I'm gonna tell you about half of that stuff doesn't matter. You don't need to make a really big promise to stay together when you're richer. You don't need to make [PAUSE] a very big promise to stay together when there's health. You're making a very big promise in front of basically everyone you know, potentially maybe this live show audience if they're hearing this?

[ROMANTIC BLACK-AND-WHITE MOVIE MUSIC PLAYS]

MATT COLLETTE: You’re making this very big promise for the hard parts. For the sicker, for the poorer, for basically all the times it might just be easier for you to go your own way. So that's what you're promising each other today. With everyone here as your witnesses, with everyone here to support you and hold you accountable, you are staying together for the hard stuff, for the stuff that you don't even imagine could happen right now. You don't need to make a promise for the good stuff, but you have to make a promise for the hard stuff. Hopefully it's not too hard. Hopefully that stuff doesn't come for a really long time. That's your promise you’re making today, and that's what your marriage is.

[MUSIC ENDS]

TOBIN: I thought that was nice. I like that his has the quality of, like, Linus talking about the meaning of Christmas. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] You know what I mean? Like, Linus in a solo spotlight saying, like, “That’s what Christmas is about, Charlie Brown.” [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

KATHY: That’s true. It does. It does. Former producer.

TOBIN: Alright. Up next is Matthew Larson, our sweet, sweet Australian coworker.

TOBIN: Real quick, I want you to shake your shoulders out. I'm sensing some nerves. Are you a little nervous?

MATTHEW LARSON: Nah, I mean, who’s on the radio every day, eh? Oi! [KATHY AND TOBIN LAUGHS]

TOBIN: So, again, close your eyes. Suits. Dogs. Doves. Droids. All of that.

KATHY: Yep.

TOBIN: And with that, Matthew Larson starts his ceremony.

MATTHEW LARSON: We are gathered today for a solemn event.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

MATTHEW LARSON: Profoundly hopeful, but infinitely difficult. We're here to celebrate the wedding of Kathy and Tobin. A good marriage is not one where troubles are magically absent. It is one where troubles are faced with insight and generosity. Humility is probably the most important emotion for the success of a relationship. Humility starts with an ample, accurate, and sorrowful recognition of all one's failings.

[DRAMATIC BLACK-AND-WHITE MOVIE MUSIC PLAYS]

MATTHEW LARSON: It is filled with an apology — sorry — It is filled with apology and modesty. It doesn't pretend that flaws are charming quirks or excusable oddities. It contains an open admission that we are — that [PAUSE] we are charming quirks —

[MUSIC ABRUPTLY CUTS OUT AT MATTHEW MAKES A MISTAKE]

MATTHEW LARSON: Ahh, damn it!

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

MATTHEW LARSON: I’ll just read that part again.

[MUSIC STARTS BACK UP]

MATTHEW LARSON: It contains an open admission that we're charming quirks or excusable additions —

[MUSIC CUTS OUT AGAIN]

MATTHEW LARSON: Ah, shit. Sorry, I, like, screwed up my typing here [KATHY LAUGHS] and I, like … Hang on. [PAUSE, THEN ABRUPTLY] Tobin, do you admit that you have failed?

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

MATTHEW LARSON: That you are a broken human being? Not in every way, but in some ways so serious that at points you will be — you will be a grave burden to Kathy?

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS UPROARIOUSLY]

TOBIN: Yes. Yes — yes. I mean, yes. [KATHY CHUCKLES]

[DRAMATIC MOVIE MUSIC FADES BACK IN]

MATTHEW LARSON: Yep. This is serious. What about you, Kathy?

KATHY: Yes. Perhaps less so. Just kidding.

TOBIN: No, we both know that’s true. [KATHY AND TOBIN LAUGH]

[MUSIC ENDS]

TOBIN: So.

KATHY: Mhm, yeah. Yeah. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Now we're going to vote on who we like better.  

KATHY: Would you like to reveal your vote?

TOBIN: Matthew Collette.

KATHY: I voted for Matthew Larson because of how sweet he is and also the accent. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

TOBIN: So currently we have a tie, which means, of course, we have to go to audience vote. [KATHY LAUGHS] I would like to hear applause if you think Australian straight co-worker Matthew Larson did better! [AUDIENCE APPLAUDS LIGHTLY AND CHEERS] I appreciate you, Matthew Larson stans.

KATHY: Yeah. We have all failed. We have all failed.

TOBIN: And now, if you think former superstar producer Matt Collette did better, please applaud now! [AUDIENCE APPLAUDS AND CHEERS, LOUDER THIS TIME]

[“NANCY” MIDROLL MUSIC PLAYS]

KATHY: So as you can hear, Matt Collette had the honor of taking the prize for queer people everywhere.

TOBIN: Yes! And a quick note, since we taped this back in November, both Matt and Matthew Larson no longer work at WNYC, but we wanted to say thank you and we love you just the same!

KATHY: Coming up after the break, we talk about rom-coms and Sandra Bullock with actor Daniel K. Isaac!

[MUSIC ENDS, WHISTLE]

[MIDROLL]

[BOUNCY BACKGROUND MUSIC PLAY]

TOBIN: And we’re back!

KATHY: So Tobes, sometimes I feel like we have a psychic connection because I’ll be thinking something, and suddenly I get a text from you saying the exact same thing.

TOBIN: Yup. This happens all the time. I think it’s very creepy! [LAUGHS]

KATHY: Is it creepy? [TOBIN LAUGHS] I dunno if it’s creepy. It’s cute!

TOBIN: It’s cute.

KATHY: Anyway, this is something that happened recently when we were separately watching the show The Other Two —

TOBIN: Which, if you don’t know, is this comedy about a family navigating internet and YouTube culture. But the thing we were reacting to was this scene where one of the main characters falls for this cutie named Jeremy in, like, this adorable gay rom-com scene. And I just immediately texted you to be like, “This is adorable!”

KATHY: Yes, it was so cute! So Jeremy is played by Korean-American actor Daniel K. Isaac — shout-out to Asian excellence! You might also know Daniel for his role on Billions, which is a very serious drama all about legal battles and hedge funds and Wall Street. All things I don’t really understand. So I loved seeing him in this guest star turn on The Other Two, having this little meet-cute that was so sweet!

TOBIN: So, we decided to have Daniel as a guest at our recent live show, again at The Bell House in Brooklyn. And we started by playing a scene from The Other Two where his character is on a first date with the main character, Cary, who is played by Drew Tarver. In this scene, they’ve just left a party and are sitting together in a pizza place. Drew Tarver speaks first.

[START OF CLIP 1 FROM THE OTHER TWO]

CARY: What’s wrong? Not hungry? Or …

JEREMY: No, I — [HESITATINGLY] I just wasn’t eating in case we … and I was the … you know?

CARY: Yeah! I don't know. I wasn't going to eat in case I was the …

JEREMY: [CHUCKLES] Well, one of us can eat the pizza.

CARY: Right?

JEREMY: Right.

CARY: Yes.

JEREMY: Yeah.

CARY: Yeah, I mean, I'd prefer to eat the pizza.

JEREMY: Oh, really?

CARY: Yeah. But if you want to eat …

JEREMY: No, no, you can eat the pizza.

CARY: Okay? I can.

JEREMY: Yeah. For tonight.

CARY: Okay. Cool. [BOTH CHUCKLE]

[END OF CLIP 1 FROM THE OTHER TWO]

KATHY: Yeah. That scene. Completely over my head. [TOBIN, DANIEL, AND AUDIENCE LAUGH]

TOBIN: I had the experience of watching it and being like, “Huh, they're talking a lot about pizza. Oh my god, they’re talking about topping and bottoming!” [DANIEL LAUGHS] And I was like, so excited to see it talked about this way, like, on a show in, like, this very real and sweet interaction.

DANIEL: Yeah.

TOBIN: So I guess my first question is, like, what was it like to film that scene? And when you, like, got this script, especially, did you have a moment of, like, “Oh, we're gonna — we're gonna talk about this, like, on a mainstream television show?”

DANIEL: [LAUGHS] I guess I just surround myself with so many gay people in my life that I didn't think it was a big deal. [KATHY LAUGHS] And so when — when Twitter erupted with these clips, I thought, “Oh, I guess we don't talk about this.” My Twitter followers are really just fans of Billions, which is, like, middle-aged straight white men. [ALL LAUGH] So when I was giving the clip to post to promote the show, a bunch of them were like, “Pizza, so — so what? I don't [ALL LAUGH] — I don't understand?” That is called privilege.  

KATHY: Well, so the — the other thing that happens on the show is that you have a very, like, sweet rom-com-y relationship with Cary.

DANIEL: Yeah.

KATHY: I'm just really curious about what is your stance on rom-coms, generally?

DANIEL: Uhh, I [PAUSE] grew up loving them, and I still love them. And I'm glad that now we are putting different people of color or different bodies and sexualities and gender identities as the focal point or as the the main, um, character. But, uhh, I really loved Sandra Bullock [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] growing up —

KATHY: That’s to be celebrated!

DANIEL: — and all of her rom-coms and and still love her to this day.

KATHY: Yeah, same.

TOBIN: Yeah, you know who’d take a bullet for Sandra Bullock? [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] This one. Right here.

KATHY: My mom once … I love Sandra Bullock so much, my mom once came up to me and said, “Last night, I had a dream that you and Sandra Bullock were talking about something.” [KATHY LAUGHS, AUDIENCE LAUGHS] That's how much I was really into her.

TOBIN: Just — just chattin’.

KATHY: It might be because my walls were covered with Sandra Bullock rom-com posters.

DANIEL: Hmm. And it was a surprise when you came out to her? [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

KATHY: Umm … Short answer, yes.

DANIEL: I mean my posters — my posters were … I was too poor for posters. [KATHY LAUGHS] So I took GQ Magazine, like, rip-outs from the magazine and, like, collaged it.

KATHY: Aww.

DANIEL: But it was for fashion, not the, like, half-naked men [KATHY LAUGHS] but jeans they were wearing [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] that was only an eighth of the page.

TOBIN: Did you also, with a pen, just circle — “PANTS! That's what I'm focused on!”

DANIEL: Yeah, “White denim is really in this year, mom!” No. [TOBIN AND KATHY LAUGH]

TOBIN: Wait, so what were the rom-coms — so you've mentioned Sandra Bullock? What were the rom-coms that like you stanned hard for?

DANIEL: Okay. That's tricky, because I — my mom kept a very religious household. And so we had very few VHS tapes. For those of you who don't know what a VHS is … [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] So the bargain bin at Pik’n’Save had While You Were Sleeping —

TOBIN: Ohh.

KATHY: Love it.

DANIEL: [AUDIENCE CHEERS] — so I -- I watched that on repeat. [KATHY LAUGHS] That, and, like, the Disney movies I was allowed to watch. So my entire romantic aesthetic is Disney princesses pre-Frozen, like, pre-“Disney woke.” In the, like, “Women have agency!”, no, [KATHY LAUGHS] “I’m asleep and a man kissed me unconsensually,” or, like, “I have seven shorter-bodied people, but I'm not going to choose them. It's the other guy.” [AUDIENCE LAUGHS, KATHY LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Right! That is — now that you bring it up, it is super messed up that she doesn't get with one of the dwarves.

DANIEL: They clean for her, they cook for her.

KATHY: They’re there for her.

TOBIN: Yeah, they do everything for her. Doc would be such a caring lover! [PAUSE] I took it to a weird place. I'm sorry. [KATHY LAUGHS] I’m sorry.

KATHY [LAUGHING]: It’s alright.

DANIEL: But yeah, just While You Were Sleeping is the answer to the question.

KATHY: What were the Disney movies that you were allowed to watch?

DANIEL: Oh, I actually think my first gay crush was Gaston in Beauty and the Beast. Which [PAUSE] is a prediction of how much trouble I would have in the gay world after the fact [KATHY AND TOBIN LAUGH] … and what I seek in men. [TOBIN LAUGHS, AUDIENCE LAUGHS] But I liked his muscles. Little Mermaid. If you just block out King Triton's head, he's got a good body. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS, TOBIN LAUGHS] Daddy complex. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Uhh … single mother, you know? It's a textbook case. It’s okay.

TOBIN: That gets to another thing that we've talked about on the show before which is, like, when you're a little gay kid or a little queer kid and, like, all the things that you see or influence you are, like, essentially for straight folks. And you’re, like, trying to find an influence there and then, like, this moment hits in the early 2000s with, like, Will and Grace and Queer as Folk coming out. And, like, I know, for us, we've talked about how those were still very white shows —

DANIEL: Totally.

TOBIN: — and I'm wondering, like … you talked a little bit before — we've talked a little bit before about how, like, those shows came out, and you saw them, and you're like, “Oh, this is not for me.” So, like, what was that moment like?

DANIEL: I watched Will and Grace and Queer as Folk with, um, my high school best friend. We were on water polo together, which is, like, the gayest sport ever. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Yeah.

DANIEL: But we were the only gay guys which we discovered because we saw each other's internet browser history. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS, TOBIN AND KATHY LAUGH] “Oh, you’re gay! I'm gay too.” And so then we would watch — and he was white — and we would watch Will and Grace on the phone together.

TOBIN AND KATHY [IN UNISON]: Aww!

DANIEL: I know! And we'd always be like, “You’re Will!” or “You’re Jack!” Or, umm, like, “No, I want to be Will!” — [AS AN ASIDE] internalized homophobia — [KATHY LAUGHS] like, “I don't want to be Jack. He's flamboyant.” And — and then after a while I just thought, “Oh, all these shows.” I watched, like, Friends and Will and Grace and Charmed. [AUDIENCE WHOOPS] I really like Charmed for some reason. We’re just white protagonists and … I was trying to lend my generosity and see myself in their stories and it wasn't until, like, Sandra Oh popped up in Grey's Anatomy —

KATHY: Oh my god, you guys.

DANIEL: — my senior year of high school and I thought, “Oh, she has — the story is about her.” Like, there are — she has complicated relationships, friendships and — and she's the focal point. And I — I craved something more. Even though I still watched all of Will and Grace and I — I watched all of Queer as Folk, which I remember because I — I — I would always pause it in the most inopportune times. So my mom would borrow my laptop and she'd be like, “You’re looking at gay porn again!” and I’d think, “No, this is actually a tender love moment [AUDIENCE LAUGHS, KATHY LAUGHS] between the twink and the heartless, um, [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] heartthrob! And they're actually connecting! And they're about to part again! And he got gay bashed in high school!” [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Anyway, so I have heavy fatigue still in the idea of lending my generosity to those, um, ciphers and I would — I am grateful for the opportunities that we have now, where people can just see themselves reflected on screen and on stage. Um …

TOBIN: Yeah.

KATHY: Well, speaking of, we have another clip.

TOBIN: Okay, just jumping in here real quick to tell you what’s happening in this clip. It starts with Drew Tarver and Daniel’s characters talking as they chaperone a high school dance.

[START OF CLIP 2 FROM THE OTHER TWO]

[POP MUSIC ECHOING IN THE BACKGROUND]

JEREMY: Not to be too whatever, but it was nice that you were here tonight.

CARY: There’s never any gay guys at these dances?

JEREMY: All the teachers are straight.

CARY: That sucks.

JEREMY: Well, the science teacher’s gay, but he's 82.

CARY: Oh, yeah.

JEREMY: And the sex was terrible.

TOBIN: And they share this really sweet kiss on the dance floor. But then, a high school student who has been obsessing over Drew Tarver’s character sees them and shoots them an evil look.

[END OF CLIP 2 FROM THE OTHER TWO — DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYS]

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

TOBIN [ABRUPTLY]: Okay, in retrospect, that was a weird clip to choose, but … [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

DANIEL: No, no, I got it. It's healing my inner child —

TOBIN: Yeah!

DANIEL: — to see something like that on screen.

TOBIN: I'm curious — so we talked a little bit about growing up and seeing these rom-coms and, like, sort of having to have a generosity to see yourself in these things. And now you have an opportunity to be in romantic storylines and have, like, a shot that pulls away as you kiss the guy.

DANIEL: Yeah.

TOBIN: And that sort of thing. Like, how does that feel? And do you feel, like, the power of that?

DANIEL: I just thought it was so cool to get to audition for the love interest. I think it really is healing some, like, [SEARCHES FOR WORDS] young Daniel, closeted, repressed, and, like, sad, that, like, gets to see this. If I had seen that as a kid, like, I really would have believed the, like, “It Gets Better” slogan and not, like, have done the other self-hating crazy conversion therapy and, like, religious, umm, grapplings that I did instead.

KATHY: Yeah! You get to play, like, a character on the rom-coms you watched growing up.

DANIEL: Totally.

KATHY: What does that do to your personal life? Like, if you can, like, flirt on screen does that translate?

DANIEL: Well, actually, because of Billions I can never tell if a guy is hitting on me or flirting with me anymore ‘cause, you know, the, like, eye contact game you do on the subway or, like, at a restaurant. And it’s — you know — it’s middle-aged white guys and, like, suits. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Now, I can tell fleece vest — like, that's a red flag. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS, KATHY AND TOBIN CRACK UP LAUGHING] But, like, there are — there are metrosexuals and I am like, “Yes, I'm getting hit on by that like hot guy in, you know, the perfectly tailored blue suit!” and, um, and instead they're like, [BRO VOICE] “Yo, Billions! Love that show, man.” And I’m like, “Fuck. [KATHY AND TOBIN LAUGH] Are you bicurious? No?” [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] So, uh, because of this, a lot of — I think a lot of I've gotten a lot of ... What — what do the kids say, “Slipped into my DMs”? A lot of like … [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] Hmm. Is that right?

TOBIN: Slide.

DANIEL: Yeah. Thank you.

TOBIN: Slipped implies that they were like, “Ahh! [AUDIENCE LAUGHS] How did I — how did I get here?” [AUDIENCE LAUGHS, KATHY AND DANIEL LAUGH]

DANIEL: That's more on-brand for me. [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

KATHY: Thank you very much, Daniel, for joining us on stage.

DANIEL: Thank you. [AUDIENCE CHEERS UP]

TOBIN: Yeah! Everyone give it up for Daniel K. Isaac!

[CREDITS MUSIC BEGINS]

KATHY: Alright, another episode done! It’s credits time!

TOBIN: Producer —

KATHY: Zakiya Gibbons!

TOBIN: Production fellow —

KATHY: Temi Fagbenle!

TOBIN: Editor —

KATHY: Stephanie Joyce!

TOBIN: Sound design —

KATHY: Jeremy Bloom!

TOBIN:  Executive producer —

KATHY: Paula Szuchman!

TOBIN: I’m Tobin Low!

KATHY: And I’m Kathy Tu!

TOBIN: And “Nancy” is a production of WNYC Studios.

[CREDITS MUSIC ENDS]

KATHY [TRYING TO PRONOUNCE THE LETTER “W”]: Dubba-you. [CHUCKLES] Dubba-you. Dubba-you. Dubba-you.

 

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