David Remnick: Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Democrats in Washington have seemed almost paralyzed by the onslaught of far-right-wing appointments to the Trump Cabinet and the wrecking ball that he's unleashed on his own government agencies. The Democrats register their opposition, but they seem lost in any attempt to organize themselves against the administration's fire hose. Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader in the House, offered a baseball analogy recently, saying they're waiting for the right pitch.

Last week on our program, Senator John Fetterman of Pennsylvania said, "How many years can you jump on cable and yell and scream that the world's on fire?" In the states, though, Democratic governors seem much more determined. They seem to have more leverage to oppose the federal government. Governor Tim Walz tweeted this in January, "President Trump just shut off funding for law enforcement, farmers, schools, veterans, and health care. Minnesota needs answers. We'll see Trump in court." That's one of the many reasons that. I wanted to speak with Tim Walz. That, of course, and the election that brought Donald Trump back to the White House.

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I hear all the time from non-Trump voters two reactions to what's going on in the last month. One is, I don't want to watch the news. I want to shut it all out. It's too much. The other thing is, where is the Democratic Party? Let's start with the inclination to shut things out. You nodded when I said that, you hear the same thing.

Governor Tim Walz: Yes. I think it's human nature. Look, I'm with them on that, too. It does feel like and We know this, you don't cover the planes that land. Almost literally, you cover the planes that crash, which we've seen. so people, I think, have tendency to want to move on with it. People are just trying to take a breath, seeing what the impacts were, but they're out there, is what I would say. There hasn't been a disengagement.

I'll make the case on this. I use this, David, that President Obama, I talked to him and he said, look, when I came in in 2009, we had a 70% approval rating. We had the House, we had the Senate. There was no charismatic Republican. It was John Boehner and Mitch McConnell. There wasn't somebody on the scene. What evolved out of that was, was the grassroots Tea Party movement. Then the Republican leadership followed in, lifted that up, and started to move forward. I'm not so certain, and I would--

The real resistance here is the pushback towards these policies that aren't improving people's lives, and they're showing up. If I were Republicans, I would be really, really worried about these town halls. In my opinion, that was the real start that led into the 2016 election. That Tea Party movement did not lose its-- it just morphed into mega, in my opinion. Look, it wasn't totally organic. I know that.

David Remnick: You're suggesting a parallel opposition, a center-left Tea Party movement, in a way.

Governor Tim Walz: What I'm saying is, is that I think for whatever reason, we've got to show them that our policies work. I'll take responsibility for the-- I needed to do my job and win this election. I knew what was coming if we didn't. Here we are. With that being said, Democ--

David Remnick: Did you actually know? Is the storm of the last four weeks exactly what you and Kamala Harris envisioned? Is there nothing that surprised you?

Governor Tim Walz: I thought there would be more massive immigration raids on Inauguration Day. I thought they'd be in the schools, things like that. In that regard, my imagination was pretty good about what they could do, because I heard it out there. We need to deliver the policies. I'm way more popular than Trump is in Minnesota, not because I'm a popular guy necessarily. It's because the policies we were able to put in place resonate with people. For whatever reason, we've lost that with people. They voted for billionaires who gutted programs that many of these people who supported him are going to pay a price for.

We can't just write that off to, well, these people just didn't figure it out or whatever. We didn't give them an alternative that was strong enough for them to come. [unintelligible 00:04:23] [crosstalk]

David Remnick: I think there's a lot of people that feel the Democratic leadership in Washington is too hesitant. For example, Hakeem Jeffries, who's the leader of the Democrats in the House, said that he's like Aaron Judge. Aaron Judge is a great hitter because he doesn't swing at every pitch. Hakeem Jeffrey says, "I'm not going to swing at every pitch. There's a lot of things to swing at." To many people, this seems exceedingly complacent.

Governor Tim Walz: First, I wouldn't underestimate the skill set that Leader Jeffries has. I certainly just candidly, my staff pulls me back because I am swinging at every pitch, if you will. I think the audacity of the Trump administration and especially what Musk is doing I think some of our folks are operating in a world that doesn't exist anymore and we need to have better imagination that-- Look, I'm not talking. I heard people say, you didn't give the message that you should have. Look, I'm not going to give a message to demonize people. I'm not going to demonize people for using a bathroom and things but I know that we need to do a better job of what does motivate people.

I think what we're seeing now is we're articulating very clearly what they're doing and we're running out programs that we think make a difference. It was clear to me as a middle-class kid that the Democrats were fighting for me. I'll acknowledge this. A large number of people did not believe we were fighting for them in the last election. That's the big disconnect. We were. Our policies are super popular, but they did not believe that. Look, I won a congressional district that Donald Trump won by 18 points. I won that thing by 32 points at one time. I think I squeaked by a point in my last election in that [unintelligible 00:06:06] [crosstalk].

David Remnick: How did you lose them?

Governor Tim Walz: I think Covid broke us in more ways than we have yet analyzed socially, culturally, economically, in a way, and there's angst. These folks, they see an economy that it's impossible to own a house. You got a car payment that's $800. We didn't say-- I think we did. I think the vice president laid out some things. I think we had the $25,000 down payment assistance on a house. That makes a lot more sense than a tax cut for billionaires because we're never going to see that.

My analysis on this is I think we're too cautious to go into media environments that we haven't been. I think we are less likely-- Go back to your earlier question, we have to flood the zone. I'm a shadow government guy. I think we need a shadow Department of Transportation secretary. I think if Pete Buttigieg is out there talking about these plane accidents, he should be there every day. He's articulate, he's smart, he knows it, and he should be. That's true across the spectrum. Governors are starting to do this.

David Remnick: Governor Walz, you mentioned specific services that are not being delivered in your state and elsewhere. Can you boil that down? What are the specific services that have suddenly stalled in Minnesota as a result of what's happening in Washington?

Governor Tim Walz: We saw in our federal workers, not a lot. We're a giver state, not a taker state, but we've got thousands of federal workers. Then today I've got the analysis of what the Medicaid reductions would look like. I think you need to [unintelligible 00:07:28] [crosstalk].

David Remnick: What do they look like?

Governor Tim Walz: I'll just take an example. He's a leader, Tom Emmer. Number three over there in the house or number two wherever he's at. He's got 124,000 Medicaid recipients, 21,000 of them will be cut off. Those are things that are real to people. I think getting these numbers, articulating where it's at, and then saying what we would do differently. I think that's been the gap in this. To be honest with you, David, I don't think we have done a good enough job.

We tried it on the trail, but opportunity, economy, that doesn't really fall where you at. You've got to be specific with people having Medicare pay for in-home healthcare for our seniors. I got it right now. I got a mother in law just had a surgery for a brain tumor. She's going to need to go into rehab or whatever. The ability for Medicare to be able to pay for that rehab in her home rather than that would not only save us money, it would improve quality of life and make a difference. That was a proposal the vice President put out. It didn't get anywhere.

David Remnick: Governor Walz, last week I had the opportunity to speak with Senator John Fetterman who said the following. "I think that the Democratic Party made it increasingly difficult for men, specifically white men, to make that choice," meaning the choice for the Democrats. "I think it's incredibly difficult sometimes." Now, he wouldn't say exactly what made it hard, but the numbers suggest that there really is something to that. What is going on with Democrats and men?

Governor Tim Walz: The economic situation of men has changed in proportion to women. I would argue this, just because women are getting rights and moving up in the workplace, that doesn't mean that men don't have that same opportunity that it's there. I think this idea that when somebody else gains a freedom, you lose one, or somebody else gains an opportunity. Look, [unintelligible 00:09:13] [crosstalk]

David Remnick: That it's a zero-sum game, somehow.

Governor Tim Walz: I have lived straight up the middle of this. I know football, I hunt. You know what they do? They take time to demonize my military career, say, "He's not a real coach. He was the defensive coordinator." "He doesn't really know how to hunt because I say so," or whatever. Anything that was, if that's what define-- I would say it doesn't. If that was to define masculinity, to know football, fix your own car, you're in the army for 25 years, they don't care. They demonize that. They voted for a guy who can't do any of those things. I think I disagree with the senator.

David Remnick: I understand all those things and yet they voted the way they voted. They see you in one way and they see Donald Trump in quite a different way in terms of masculinity.

Governor Tim Walz: They did in November of 2024. Now, when those promises don't come out, when their station in life doesn't improve, when the ability to take care or support their family doesn't get better, he's going to have to deliver. This goes back to my case on this, if you don't deliver on policies.

The ideal that boggles my mind-- I honest to God thought that it was a good talking point that when the Wall Street Journal said, "Tim Walz is the least wealthy person to ever run for vice president and the first in 40 years, it's not a lawyer." Apparently, wasn't a flex. They went with the guy who's a billionaire and has never been in their situation, someone who-- I'm very proud I pay my bills. I got an 850 credit score. They went with the guy who didn't pay his bills, didn't care about it. Somewhere in there's a disconnect.

I don't think it's as simple as we've lost it. I think there's complexity around it. I will acknowledge this. We did not win white men. Would I change that by saying, you know what, we don't need to hire so many women? No, of course not. I will acknowledge this. They definitely must not have heard my message, which is one, that you should get a fair shake in this, you should have a good job, you should get health insurance. They didn't believe that.

David Remnick: I think what you're telling me is that the rubber is going to meet the road on economics. That the popularity or unpopularity or the opposition or non-opposition to Trump will depend on the price of eggs, as it were, and many other economics.

Governor Tim Walz: Look, I just talked to a labor group, the electricians yesterday, and I said, "I know we don't all agree on everything on this." I said, "You're in here today to talk about policies on misclassification of workers, the ability to organize, the ability to get good jobs in this." I said, "You're going to have to decide whether who's using which restroom is more important than those things.

You need to make that decision. What I'm telling you is the decision that's going to impact your life the most is right in this room on these economic issues." Look, I'm a labor guy and they support me, but, I'm telling you, it was different even since the election, that there was, yes, you're right. If his stuff worked. If tariffs worked, I'll say this. God dang, it worked. People have more money, they're able to buy a house. The middle class is more secure. I don't believe that.

There's I think 30% or whatever of his voters. They'll dismiss all the economic stuff. The others will not. I'll tell you, the biggest change on this was, and it drove me mad during the campaign, Donald Trump was viewed better than Kamala Harris on the economy. Pretty wide gap of all those things. I worried about it the entire campaign that we were not getting out the economic message that was making a difference. Even though the numbers on democracy, women's rights, abortions, things that we care about matter, but that one core issue on the economy, they didn't trust us.

David Remnick: Governor Walz, as a person who started his career as a sports reporter, after a game, to me, the most interesting thing was never to go to the winning locker room, but to go to the losing locker room. On a human level, tell me what it was like to lose that election and what you felt in the days after.

Governor Tim Walz: I never lost an election before, so the thing for me that gives me the most angst to be candid was letting people down. An old white guy who ran for vice president. You'll land on your feet pretty well. I still struggle with it. It was my job to get this one. Now when I see Medicaid cuts happening, when I see LGBTQ folks being demonized, when I see some of this happening, that's what weighs on me personally. I'll serve where I'm asked to serve.

David Remnick: What was the next morning like? Did you feel a sense of desolation or failure?

Governor Tim Walz: No.

David Remnick: Or an inability to understand what had just happened. Did you think you were going to lose going in?

Governor Tim Walz: No. That's the one that surprises me. I have been in elections where I knew it was tough, and there's election nights where I said, "Look, we're going to win by a point or we're going to lose by a point."

David Remnick: On the day before the election, you thought you were going to win.

Governor Tim Walz: I did.

David Remnick: What was telling you that?

Governor Tim Walz: It just felt like the mood of folks. Maybe a bad poll or whatever, the Iowa stuff was coming out. It felt like what happened in New York City the week before was a bridge too far.

David Remnick: The Madison Square Garden, right?

Governor Tim Walz: Yes.

Tony: There's a lot going on. I don't know if you guys know this, but there's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. I think it's called Puerto Rico.

Governor Tim Walz: It just felt like people would choose a calmness and a hopefulness over that. Obviously, Donald Trump knew more about America on November 5th, 2024 than I did.

David Remnick: What do you mean by that? What did he know that you didn't know?

Governor Tim Walz: He knew that that message would work. I said I'm guilty of this. They sucked me in on, say, for example, I was just horrified and angry when they were demonizing folks in Springfield, Ohio. There I was talking for almost a week about immigration, right where they wanted us to be. [unintelligible 00:14:58] [crosstalk]

David Remnick: This is, they're eating the dogs and the cats.

Governor Tim Walz: Yes. That bothered me on a real human basis. On that one, I was pretty fired up, pushing back. It wasn't fair. We need to do this. It just struck me, and he was right. For whatever reason, he was right that more people were okay with saying that than they were against. I really think it was a piece of it. I think the immigration piece did play a role.

David Remnick: I'm speaking with Governor Tim Walz of Minnesota. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. More to come.

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This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I'm speaking today with Tim Walz, the governor of Minnesota. When Governor Walz got the nod from Kamala Harris to be her running mate, he seemed to have it all, particularly in the regular guy department. He was bluff, friendly, a Midwesterner, a veteran of the Army National Guard, a history teacher in public high school, a football coach, a longtime congressman, and then governor of Minnesota.

It might have been one little phrase that put Walz in the public eye. He called Trump and JD Vance weird. Weird. for a hot minute, it stuck. You suddenly heard Democrats all over the country trying some variation on the weird theme. It seemed to resonate more strongly than scarier words like authoritarian or fascist. You know the end of the story. The voters spoke in November, and here we are. I'll continue now my conversation with Governor Tim Walz.

It seems that one of the difficulties the Democrats had were on, and this sometimes is a euphemism, is on cultural issues. How did you react to the ad that said this? "Kamala Harris is for they/them. Donald Trump is for you."

Governor Tim Walz: Why react knowing it was probably going to be bad for us,-

David Remnick: Bad for the Democrats.

Governor Tim Walz: -bad for the trans community. They know this, that because this community is so demonized, they pick we're hearing it here. We can't have in women's sports or whatever. Look, if you were really concerned about the safety of women's sports, it's men sexually assaulting female athletes coaches, and things. Let's just be candid about it. There's 10 transgender athletes out of 590,000 in the country.

David Remnick: College athletes, you mean.

Governor Tim Walz: I think my response to this, I have stood for those rights because I believe human rights and trans rights are human rights. I could argue from a moral perspective, which I have, and I will, of why we need to defend these human rights because they'll come after each and every one of us. By the time that ad came and they ran a billion dollars behind it, we were dismissing it without a response to it. I don't think our response had to drag everybody through it. I think it should have been as simple as this. This isn't going to improve your lives and leave these people alone.

David Remnick: You had a debate with JD Vance, standing there next to him. What was your sense of his strengths and weaknesses? Do you have any second thoughts or regrets about that confrontation?

Governor Tim Walz: I think you always do. Look, I said it, David. I am a poor debater in that I think I started at a disadvantage. As a schoolteacher, my inclination is to answer the question, and that puts me at a disadvantage.

David Remnick: How did you react to the rap that you were too nice to him somehow?

Governor Tim Walz: I think it's fair and I think he was well-coached in this. My guess is it came from the Minnesotans that said, "If you're nice to Tim, it is just in his nature, he will be nice to you." We did not prep for that JD Vance because he was nice to me.

David Remnick: You were prepping for the JD Vance that would get right up in your grill?

Governor Tim Walz: I think so. My team took everything in. This is on me. It's 100% on me. It's people who say, "You were over prepped and you did all this." No, I'm the guy standing there. This is 100% on me. I Will argue that I would argue like golf. I am not a scratch golfer. I'm a 90 golfer. I think my team got me to low 80s just by the work they did. That's about the best you're going to get.

David Remnick: You're saying you could have been a lot worse.

Governor Tim Walz: Oh, I think so. Yes. I know I could have been. It's retrospect on this. They maybe should have let me be when I have had really good debates, which I do have those once in a while where I'm just speaking the truth straight to it. The thing that struck me was, the ease that he would say things that somebody that smart knows wasn't true and the ability to say it was really disarming to me because I'm horrible at it. When I get it wrong, people can see it.

David Remnick: For example, what did he say that was markedly untrue?

Governor Tim Walz: Talking about immigrants and housing was one that was really it.

JD Vance: 25 million illegal aliens competing with Americans for scarce homes is one of the most significant drivers of home prices in the country. It's why we have massive increases in home prices that have happened right alongside massive increases in illegal alien populations--

Governor Tim Walz: We know that's not true. That's not why housing is more difficult to find. It's not anything like that. Then he morphed that into the use of federal lands, that the federal lands are too protected. it was a really inside-the-bubble thing that he was talking about is, is that we need the federal government out of this. We can demonize immigrants at the same time. I'm sitting there thinking to myself, we've got a housing shortage in Minneapolis. Not as bad as other cities, but we have it. There's no federal lands here and there's no immigrant could afford a house in Minneapolis. You're making this case.

I'm talking about, it's people like you, JD, the venture capitalists who came in and preyed on these areas, bought up all the houses, jacked them up, gentrified the area, and made it difficult to be there. Then you blame the very people who you kicked out. That part of it of standing side by side. I watched. He was good at it. How are you going to find common ground with someone who is so diametrically opposed to the where things are at?

David Remnick: Did the campaign end up relying too much on the message of defending democracy? Is that possible?

Governor Tim Walz: Yes, I think it's possible. This is where the fourth-grade school teacher in me knows is fear is a good short-term motivator. It doesn't change behavior. People tuned out to it because it seems so unlikely that this would happen. It was over the horizon, housing costs, gasoline, eggs, and all of that. My point was, is just to show no one was asking for this agenda, no one was asking for this stuff. It's just weird to focus on who's using the bathroom.

Like I said, I think we were trying to make an intellectual argument that, let's just all be candid. We were right about right now, as it sure appears to be happening. It wasn't about being right. It was about convincing enough Americans that this was a problem, but doing it in a way that brought it home to them. As a teacher, I teach a lesson and the kids don't get it. It's not because the kids are dumb, it's because you're not teaching it right. Pivot around and teach it a different way.

David Remnick: You just announced that you won't be seeking the open US Senate seat in your home state. First of all, why, and would you ever be open to running for a national race again after what you've just been through?

Governor Tim Walz: My first responsibility is that we win that seat in Minnesota. I think you look at the whole field, including me in that to look at it. Candidly, a couple things. First, I was in Congress for 12 years and someone asked, "Do you miss it?" I said, "I'd rather eat glass than miss it." I recognize that that's a different skill set that people--

David Remnick: Why would you rather eat glass than go back to Washington?

Governor Tim Walz: Because it's so frustrating now. I think when I was there, there was still the ability to work across the aisle. It's something I prized myself on. Agriculture committee, VA committee, Armed Services, working on things together that really mattered. I think that's gone. Now being in this position as executive for the state, it's just different. I think about the impact that I can make, especially now has the ability to push back.

David Remnick: You're saying you can make a greater impact as governor of Minnesota than senator from Minnesota?

Governor Tim Walz: Oh, yes.

David Remnick: In the Trump era?

Governor Tim Walz: Yes. As you gain seniority and it takes a while there, I would argue that might not hold true with Senator Klobuchar. She is an effective national voice. She can change policy but she's earned that over 18 years. You go as a 61-year-old junior senator from Minnesota, it's going to take a while. I think the ability to be able to impact states now as the last firewall against this is more important. To be very candid on this is we've got a deep bench with people who are probably better qualified than me to be able to do that job, and they will.

David Remnick: A blunt question, is Donald Trump corrupt?

Governor Tim Walz: I believe that. I think his career has shown that. I think you disclose and you should own no stocks and you should own no interest in any company if you're an elected office. You should not get wealthier while you're in elected office. I think the inability to do that. Never shown us his tax returns. Look, I don't know for a fact he is, but I have an inclination that there's things in there that should be shown.

David Remnick: What's the inclination? What is the pattern you're seeing whether Trump or Trump family or his relationship to other business people tells you that he's corrupt?

Governor Tim Walz: I'll just give you this one. You don't agree with him, he threatens you. Look, I disagreed strongly with George Bush, but I respected him greatly. When we had a flood, George Bush was out here in my congressional district and he did what he needed to do and I would go back to Washington and fight him on his policies on the Iraq war. I never for once questioned that he was corrupt. I never once questioned that he wasn't trying to do the right thing. I just thought he couldn't figure out what the right thing was.

David Remnick: Of all the appointments that Donald Trump has made, which ones trouble you the most?

Governor Tim Walz: Oh, man, that's tough.

David Remnick: You can rank them from 1 to 10 if you like.

Governor Tim Walz: It's tough. I think Pete Hegseth over at DOD really worries me. He couldn't get into elected office in Minnesota. He was thrashed when he tried to run. He came in this door. His policies, especially on women in the military, I find revolting in the antithesis of what this democracy and folks who want to serve. I think that's troublesome. I think it's troublesome because these moves of removing generals, I'm not prone to hyperbole, but a lot of these things, the final stopping point of the generals, you look globally around the world, the final move, if you're trying to move towards an authoritarian government, is the generals.

David Remnick: Meaning to politicize the military.

Governor Tim Walz: Yes.

David Remnick: Let's put this all together. Whether it's the Justice Department or the Pentagon or all the other appointments that have been made and all the other moves that you've seen take shape over the last, what is it, five, six weeks? What is Donald Trump building in the aggregate? How is he changing America in systemic terms?

Governor Tim Walz: Not just that they're not qualified, the thing that's common about those is every one of those people in all of those positions are loyal to Donald Trump first and the American people fall right on the line. I appoint people who challenge me daily. That's how you're supposed to do leadership in this. I think it's clear that he's building an authoritarian government that is to Donald Trump first. He yelled at the governor of Maine, "We are the law. We are the federal law." He is not the federal law. We bend no knee to no man.

David Remnick: This is Janet Mills, who then turned and said, "We'll see you in court."

Governor Tim Walz: Yes. For simply, she's following her law, federal law, and if you don't like it, you go to court.

David Remnick: How far do you think he will go? You're saying he's building an authoritarian government.

Governor Tim Walz: As far as he can.

David Remnick: What does that mean as far as he can?

Governor Tim Walz: I think he'd like to see a change. I think he's already hinted that he'd like to run again. I think the checks and balances of government are off. He said that. He's hinted and the vice president's hinted. [unintelligible 00:27:10] [crosstalk]

David Remnick: The checks and balances are off, meaning?

Governor Tim Walz: We don't have to listen to the courts. If the courts rule against us, we won't do it anyway. Look, it happens to me here. I think sometimes the courts here rule against me. I may disagree, but I fully respect and I will implement exactly what they tell me to do. That is the way it has to be. I would fully expect to be called to the carpet if I didn't. I would argue that the road towards authoritarianism has been paved with people saying, you're overreacting.

I don't think you can underestimate how far he will go. I think you should assume, this is what I would say, a worst-case scenario. If I'm wrong, that's okay. The democracy holds. If I'm right, then we need to be prepared that he'll continue to make these moves. I think as governors, my job is to make sure the firewall is there. My job as governor is make sure that I'm honoring the system where it sets in terms of checks and balances.

David Remnick: I don't say this to further pain you, but it must eat at your guts every day to know that you lost by a point and a half. The difference was between an administration led by Kamala Harris and yourself and this.

Governor Tim Walz: Yes, it does. That's one I'll take with me to the grave, that I knew what my job was. It wasn't to become vice president. It was to protect the most vulnerable. It was to make sure that we balance the budget. To make sure that we keep peace in the world, make sure we tackle climate change, make sure that women make their own reproductive rights. All of those things are at stress right now.

I think, for me is to do the best I can to push back against that, to do the right thing. Look, if there's a place to find common ground with Donald Trump, I would find it. I think we're being very naive here. He's not interested in finding common ground with us. He is not interested in that. He sees us as an impediment and an obstacle. I think he'll continue to move to remove those obstacles the best he can.

David Remnick: Who do you see in the Democratic Party as a possibility for '28? As we know, these dates come at us faster than we sometimes anticipate.

Governor Tim Walz: It's deep. I'm going to say it. I'm biased towards the governors, and there's a bunch of them out there doing the work. There's people that I unabashed. I'm a big fan of Pete Buttigieg. I think he talks about it. I don't know what Vice President Harris is going to do, but I think she's got a lot to offer folks. I wish we would have got to see more of that, but I think the bench is deep.

David Remnick: Have you talked to her much yet since the election?

Governor Tim Walz: A couple times.

David Remnick: Just a couple of times?

Governor Tim Walz: Yes. Just a few. I think I'm doing my job and she's doing her job. She's out in California, I believe, living. I'm here in beautiful Minnesota where the weather's always great.

David Remnick: You got a telephone. You can text, you can phone. Really, after that experience, you just talk a couple of times?

Governor Tim Walz: Maybe she doesn't want to talk to me after we get this thing done? No, I think it's just-- There'll be a time and a place, but we left good. My family misses her, I will say that. My daughter, especially. My daughter fond her--

David Remnick: Do you miss her?

Governor Tim Walz: I do.

David Remnick: What was that relationship like as it reached its end?

Governor Tim Walz: It was professional. It was clear that she was the top of the ticket, and my job was there to support her. She inspired me. I think there were a lot of things that America never knew about her. When I found out she was a band kid, I'm like, "Why aren't we running ads on that?" She played in the high school band. My God, that's a common experience for everybody. I have to say this, watching her around her family with Doug, with the girls, with her son, that inspired me the most because I loved that they had that. Our families when we got time to spend together, was really, really fun, and it just felt like the right thing.

David Remnick: Did the results of this last election tell you that a woman, and particularly a woman of color, cannot be president of this country?

Governor Tim Walz: Well, I think it's tough, and I'm ashamed by that. I'm disappointed in our country. We had a supremely qualified leader, woman of color, who we would not be in all this. You wouldn't be having this angst. I'll guarantee you that. Yet we didn't choose that. It bothers me. Yes, it bothers me. Do I think that that's going to make it harder? It probably will, but it'll also, I think forge the steel of that next woman and that next woman of color who's going to rise up, and they will. It's tough. I thought we'd be there. My mom is late 80s, and she's madder than hell not that I won, but she said, she doesn't know if she's going to live long enough to see a woman president, and that bothers her.

David Remnick: Have you had it with national politics for yourself?

Governor Tim Walz: Look, I never had an ambition to be president or vice president. I was honored to be asked. I told the vice president I would go wherever she asked me. If she didn't pick me, and she sent me to Omaha to win one electoral vote, that's what I would do. I've always done this. If I feel like I can serve, I will. If nationally, that's looks like maybe people like, "Dude, we tried you, and look how that worked out." I'm good. With that. I just want the best person who's there and I will support.

David Remnick: I guess what I'm asking you is, would you run for president?

Governor Tim Walz: I had a friend tell me, never turn down a job you haven't been offered. If I think I could offer something or if there's a piece there that would do it, I would certainly consider that. I'm also, though, not arrogant enough to believe there's a lot of people that can do this. By the time we get to 2028, what that skill set to do, it looks like we need to coalesce behind that person, whoever it is. If it would be that might have the skill set, I'll do it, if my people ask.

David Remnick: You might do it?

Governor Tim Walz: If it means that we don't have to put up with what we're doing, I'll do whatever it takes. I certainly wouldn't be arrogant enough to think that it needs to be me. I would just say that.

David Remnick: When you read presidential history, you read American history, there are people that feel they are destined to do this.

Governor Tim Walz: I never felt that. I never feel that. I didn't feel destined to be member of Congress or to be governor. I always said this. I didn't prepare my life to be in these jobs, but my life prepared me well. If this experience I had and what we're going through right now prepares me for that, then I would. I worry about people who have ambition for elected office. I don't think you should have ambition. I think you should have a desire to do it if you're asked to serve. That's where I'm at. If folks aren't asking, I'm with them, then I'm going with the person they're asking for.

David Remnick: Governor Walz, thank you so much for your time.

Governor Tim Walz: Pleasure to be with you.

David Remnick: I really appreciate it. Be well.

Governor Tim Walz: Thank you.

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David Remnick: Tim Walz is the governor of Minnesota. That's The New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.

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