David Remnick: In years past, we grew accustomed to the state of Florida playing a decisive role in presidential elections. Then, for a while, Ohio was one of the Bellwethers, but by 2024, all eyes have become focused on Pennsylvania. With 19 electoral votes, which ranks fifth in the nation, Pennsylvania is going to be critical for winning the White House. For decades, Pennsylvania trended slightly blue, but it's now deeply purple, with a divided state house and a history of razor-thin margins in general elections.

A notable exception here, though, was the governor's race. Democrat Josh Shapiro won in 2022 by nearly 15 points, a landslide by any accounting. As governor, Shapiro's approval ratings in Pennsylvania remain sky-high.

Governor Josh Shapiro: I want you to know, every single day I go to work for you, I put my shoulder to the wheel, and I focus on three simple letters in our Alphabet. G, S, D. I focus on getting shit done for all of you.

David Remnick: Perhaps that's why Donald Trump has chosen to single out Shapiro for attack, calling him "an overrated Jewish governor." Lovely. I sat down with Shapiro the other day to talk about how a Democrat can win Pennsylvania. I've been looking at the Pennsylvania vote over the course of time, and right now, you are governor with a very big margin of victory. You did spectacularly well in that state. As we sit here, the margin between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump is negligible. It's essentially even. Maybe it's one point in her favor, but we all know about the margin of error. Why is it so tight?

Governor Josh Shapiro: Every presidential race in Pennsylvania is tight. Go back and look at 2016 when Trump was first on the ballot. That race came down to 44,000 votes. Trump won that race, and then four years later, Joe Biden beat him but beat him by 80,000 votes. We're a commonwealth of 13 million people, about 9 million registered voters. You're talking about a percentage point or less. It's not shocking to me that the race is, as you say, effectively tied at this point.

Now, what Kamala Harris has done, I think, really effectively is put her coalition back together because we were struggling there for a number of months. To win in Pennsylvania, you're not winning with only Democrats. You've got to get like-minded independents and Republicans. I feel real confident we'll get there, but we have a lot of work to do.

David Remnick: What are her biggest challenges in convincing Pennsylvania voters? Is fracking an issue where she has, in the words of the Trump campaign, flipped? She's changed her mind.

Governor Josh Shapiro: I'm happy to speak about fracking, but if I can answer your question maybe a little bit more broadly.

David Remnick: Please.

Governor Josh Shapiro: You can certainly push me on a particular issue or not. I think a big part of it is folks want to get to know her. We're a big state, but we're still a retail state, meaning you got to show up. You got to let folks kick the tires. You got to let them ask you some questions. The thing that I have seen that offers great encouragement from the Harris/Walz campaign is they're not just showing up in Philly and Pittsburgh. I love Philly and Pittsburgh, but before they went to the convention, they were in Beaver County, Pennsylvania. That's a rural corner of our state over by Ohio and West Virginia.

I think Tim Walz, within the last few days, has been in rural Lancaster County, rural Fayette County, in Erie County, showing up in communities that oftentimes are forgotten. I camped out in those areas when I was running for governor and many of those areas--

David Remnick: Was that rough campaigning for you at first?

Governor Josh Shapiro: No. Look, Pennsylvanians are really kind and generous and decent folks. Even if they're not going to vote for you, they want to hear from you. They want to know what you're going to do for them. I pledged throughout my campaign, and obviously have done this as governor, to be a governor for all Pennsylvanians. You got to show up in these areas. Just two days ago, I was in rural Tioga County. That's the northern part of our state along the New York state border.

They suffered horrible flooding. We lost one person in that flooding. This is a community that certainly a majority of voters did not vote for me, but I made clear I'm their governor, and I'm there to help, there to make sure they've got the resources that they need, get them back up on their feet. Pennsylvanians appreciate that. [crosstalk]

David Remnick: The fracking issue is where she's vulnerable in Pennsylvania. She was anti-fracking before. She's now pro-fracking. Sometimes political audiences are forgiving when you change your mind, sometimes not.

Governor Josh Shapiro: Yes. I think you may have used the word-- The word flip flop's been thrown around, or people try and spin it, that when you change your position in politics, that that is a sign of weakness. I actually think in her case, it's a sign of strength. Let me explain why. She listened to a lot of people across this country and in Pennsylvania since she made the comment about fracking back in 2019. She could speak for herself, but this is my assessment, she learned just how important energy is the economy of this country, and certainly to Pennsylvania. We are a net energy exporter.

I think listening is a sign of strength. Listen, I'll tell you about my own journey on an issue. When I ran for attorney general in 2016 and even again in 2020 when I ran for reelection, I ran as a pro-death penalty candidate, but I'll tell you what, as attorney general, every time a case would cross my desk, I could never pursue the death penalty. Then as governor, when the first death warrant came across my desk, I couldn't sign it. I stood up and I spoke from my heart to the people of Pennsylvania to say, "I've changed my mind on this, and here is why."

David Remnick: Why are the Democrats attacking Donald Trump? You can doubt his sincerity from here to kingdom come, and you'll get no argument from me on this, but now is changing his mind on all kinds of things of political convenience for him. He sees that abortion is a terrible issue for him, and suddenly he's for reversing field.

Governor Josh Shapiro: Donald Trump is a pathological liar. He will say something on Monday, say a different thing Tuesday, and a third thing on Wednesday. When you carefully consider an issue and evolve on it, and you have reasons for that and you're able to articulate that as well, I think that shows strength. David, when you go into one room and say you're pro-choice, in the other room, your anti-choice, really, you're just speaking to the crowd. That is what Donald Trump has spent a lifetime doing, lying to different audiences to curry a little bit of favor. That's really different, I think than what the vice president has said about energy.

David Remnick: Governor, Donald Trump calls you an overrated Jewish governor. When he says something like that, who's he talking to, and what does it mean?

Governor Josh Shapiro: What Donald Trump is really doing when he says something like that is trying to divide us and create others in our system. Try and make clear that if you look a certain way, you worship a certain way, you come from a certain place, you love a certain person, then you don't count here in Pennsylvania or in the country.

David Remnick: We've talked on this program a lot about Donald Trump and race. We've talked about Donald Trump and any number of other otherings or racisms, as it were. If he were sitting here, he would say, "My daughter converted to Judaism. I have a Jewish son-in-law." He might even say he has a Jewish lawyer, or God knows.

Governor Josh Shapiro: He probably would say something like that.

David Remnick: He would say something like that. What I'm asking is Donald Trump antisemitic?

Governor Josh Shapiro: What I would say to Donald Trump if he were sitting here and gave me that answer is that, "Donald, you have failed the basic test that I set for my four kids, and I think parents all across this country set for their kids, which is to love thy neighbor. You want to be the leader of the free world. You want to be the president of the United States. You should at least meet that standard we set for our kids. You have failed miserably and--"

David Remnick: I get that, but is he antisemitic?

Governor Josh Shapiro: "-you allow your words to be used by others, misappropriated by others, to foment hate in our society." I don't get upset when he attacks me for being an American Jew. By the way, I am a proud American Jew and proud of my faith, but what breaks my heart is when an American Jew comes over, and particularly a kid, and says, "I'm scared. If Donald Trump can say that about you and not be punished for it, not face consequences for it, I feel less safe here." I think what he is doing is making some Americans feel less safe repeatedly.

David Remnick: I don't mean to harp on this, but I'm asking you, do you think Donald Trump is an antisemite?

Governor Josh Shapiro: I think he peddles antisemitism and antisemitic tropes on a routine, regular basis. I'm not the only target of that.

David Remnick: Why do you think he does it?

Governor Josh Shapiro: I think he is cynical. I think he's a bad human being, and I think he is someone who does this to divide people in a way to benefit himself. I don't think it's going to work this time. I think we're seeing clear political signs every single day that it's not working, but it is dangerous and it is cynical.

David Remnick: Governor, you've been through, I would say, a complicated experience in recent months. You were all set to support Joe Biden for president, and then the world got turned upside down and the vice president suddenly became the nominee. Then the vice president had to consider who she would nominate as her vice presidential running mate. It was very clear to everybody that there were two or three people in consideration, and you certainly were one. In the end, you didn't get it. You had to go through the whole process of being vetted. I hope you can be honest with us and tell us that story.

Governor Josh Shapiro: Sure. I'll certainly be honest with you. I don't think I'm going to share the details of my private conversations with the vice president. I don't think that that is appropriate.

David Remnick: Why not?

Governor Josh Shapiro: I received a call from the vice--

David Remnick: Why isn't that appropriate? We know you're forthright supporting the nominee. Why should that remain a secret?

Governor Josh Shapiro: I think when you are invited into certain rooms, particularly a room like that with the vice president, and you're having an honest dialogue both ways, I think that there is an implied responsibility toward confidentiality in both directions. The vice president to me and me to the vice president, and I'm going to honor that. I said throughout that process that the vice president had a deeply personal decision to make, who she wanted to campaign with, who she wanted to govern with. In the end, I had a deeply personal decision to make, too, about the direction of service I want to go in,

I think she made a great pick in Tim Walz. Tim's been my friend for a while. Gwen, his wife, and my wife, Lori, are good friends. We've all worked together on a number of issues. We socialize together. I think for what the vice president wants in that role, he's an outstanding pick.

David Remnick: A lot of the conjecture was that you are not only a Jewish American candidate, but had a rich background where that's concerned, when you were in college, right after college, working at the Israeli embassy. You made certain statements of support about Israel after October 7, and all kinds of things, and that in certain camps, mainly on the left of the Democratic party, this was considered a liability.

Governor Josh Shapiro: Let's unpack what you said there.

David Remnick: Please do.

Governor Josh Shapiro: First off, I'm very proud of my faith. My faith calls me to serve. I don't consult with my faith on whether to sign a bill or my views on a policy, but my faith is what has led me to a life of service. We're speaking here on a Friday, and I'm going to end my Friday the way I end pretty much every Friday, which is back home with my family celebrating our Sabbath. I will never back down on my commitment to my faith or my pride in my faith, period. Hard stop. I can tell you that while there were many people on the outside who wanted to make an issue of my faith in a negative way--

David Remnick: Not an issue of your faith. An issue of your politics on Israel. There's a difference.

Governor Josh Shapiro: I want to get to that. I'm not ducking your question at all. I could tell you that for the vice president and I, in our dialogue, antisemitism, and really, the issue of faith, played absolutely no role in that dialogue. If anything, I think she was concerned about the attacks on me because of my faith. I think it is important to separate out faith from your policy views, in this case, on the Middle East. I think it is really important in this nation that there be no nuance when it comes to standing up and speaking out and condemning any forms of hate based on faith, whether it's antisemitism, Islamophobia, you name it. That issue should be black and white and clear.

Where there is a lot of nuance is on policy matters, particularly in Israel. I've been pretty outspoken on these issues for a while. I realize that some people may have not wanted to hear the nuance of my views on policy, or some people assumed certain things about my views because of what I look like or how I worship, but these are my views.

David Remnick: Unpack that.

Governor Josh Shapiro: These are my views.

David Remnick: What were they assuming and what was reality?

David Remnick: I think sometimes in our politics, when someone who looks like me and worships like me, maybe, versus someone who looks and worships like-- I don't want to bring the vice president into this, but someone who doesn't look like me, people presume certain things about you. My views on the Middle East, particularly post-October 7th, have been clearly stated. Number one, Hamas is a terrorist organization that blew across the Israeli border, murdered 1200 people at a music festival, at a kibbutz on the streets of Israel, took over 200 people hostage, including Americans.

They are a terrorist group, and there is absolutely no excuse or justification for that conduct, period. I grieve for those who have died and those families who have an empty seat at the table because their loved one is in a tunnel or somewhere in Gaza being held by this terrorist group, Hamas. I grieve for them. I also grieve for the people of Gaza who have faced destruction and despair and death. I think it is possible to hold both of those emotions at the same time.

I believe those hostages need to be brought home and the war needs to end. As I have believed for many, many, many years, we need to get back into a situation where we can have a real dialogue with all the players in the Middle East to create a viable two-state solution, Palestinians and Israelis living peacefully side by side.

David Remnick: You are in Pennsylvania. The University of Pennsylvania was one of many universities that's had big protests, and you had things to say about those protests. How do you break down the protests in retrospect, or that they may return to the college campuses come this fall? Who were you okay with? What were you angry about?

Governor Josh Shapiro: Look, whether it's a student on campus or a community leader in a town square, people have a right to peacefully protest in this country and on our campuses. I am someone as former attorney general, someone who's dedicated to the Constitution, the First Amendment, and now, as governor for all Pennsylvanians, I'm someone who works very hard to protect that right. I want people to be able to speak freely. By the way, whether I agree with them or not is not the point.

David Remnick: Speak freely? Can they say anything?

Governor Josh Shapiro: When you are protesting, you do have a responsibility to the broader society, and you go to follow the rules of that community. When you ask me this specific question about Penn, those students certainly have a right to peacefully protest. Penn establishes what those rules are. Go to have a permit. You can't block traffic, can't block other students. You can't make students unable to get to their classes, their dorms, you name it. Universities, not just in Pennsylvania, but all across the country, have both a moral and a legal responsibility to keep all students safe on campus.

What I think is important is just always maintaining that balance, that ability to give people their First Amendment right to protest, and I think college campuses are an important place for that type of dialogue to take place, but it can't make students feel unsafe. It can't literally block a student who self-identifies as a Zionist from being able to go to the dining hall or being able to go to their classes or back to their dorm room. That's unacceptable.

I think it is important that those students continue to have their voices in protest, should that continue this fall, and that the rules of the campus or the city, or the community be followed at the same time. I do not think they are mutually exclusive.

David Remnick: I want to ask you about the business of being a public person. That has magnified immensely in the recent months for you. I want to know what's pleasing about it. When you take some guff or even kidding, when people look at your speaking style and say, "That sounds to me like karaoke Barack Obama," or something like that, how do you react to that? How does that change your life?

Governor Josh Shapiro: It hasn't changed my life. I'll be honest. I don't--

David Remnick: By the way, did you copy Barack Obama's speaking style?

Governor Josh Shapiro: No, not at all. I actually found that to be so interesting that in the last several weeks, people started saying that, and I guess JD Vance tried to attack me with it. First off, Barack Obama is the greatest orator of my lifetime. It's a weird way to insult someone by invoking Barack Obama. That was a little strange for people to say that. People are entitled to their opinions. What I was going to say before is, notwithstanding the attention, I really don't feel changed by it at all.

I don't get too high from the folks who say, "You're great," and I definitely don't get too low from the folks who criticize me or attack me. I believe in what I do. I'm also big enough to realize if I make a mistake, that I should own it and acknowledge it and change course, change position, you name it, and I'm going to continue to act that way.

David Remnick: There's now less than two months between now and election day, and Pennsylvania is the pivot.

Governor Josh Shapiro: Yes. By the way, that may be the only thing Kamala Harris and Donald Trump agree on.

David Remnick: It seems to be. You're going to be seeing a lot of both of them in the next few weeks. What has to happen for Kamala Harris to have a decisive lead?

Governor Josh Shapiro: I think she needs to just keep doing what she's doing, talk about her economic policies, how it's going to reduce costs.

David Remnick: Is she being specific enough?

Governor Josh Shapiro: I think she's been doing that across Pennsylvania, so has Governor Walz. It's been really important, I think, for Pennsylvanians to hear what their plans are. Look at the contrast with Donald Trump on an issue that is really important to Pennsylvanians, and that is the cost of childcare. Kamala Harris laid out some very specific bills that she's going to try and get to her desk that would reduce the cost of childcare. Donald Trump was asked about it a few days ago, and his answer was, "Childcare is childcare and you need it."

David Remnick: You didn't find that satisfying?

Governor Josh Shapiro: No. Then when his idiot sidekick said, "Maybe grandma can watch the kids extra." Yes, it would be wonderful if everybody had a grandma who could do that, but that's not an answer for reducing the cost of childcare. I think when you speak to issues like that that are on people's minds, particularly the economic anxieties that are very real, and you're showing a clear contrast with Donald Trump, who does not have a plan to address these things, I think that that's a really compelling way to campaign at the end of the day. I think that's where we are in the Harris/Walz campaign.

We have a better hand. We have a better candidate. We have, I think, a clearer vision. I would rather be us than them in Pennsylvania.

David Remnick: Thank you very much, Governor.

Governor Josh Shapiro: Thank you.

[music]

David Remnick: Josh Shapiro was elected governor of Pennsylvania in 2022.

[music]

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.