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Melissa: You're listening to The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry, and it's great to have you with us. Now, we're just about 30 days away from the final day to cast a vote in the 2022 midterm elections. Just about 100 days ago, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, leaving access to abortion up to state lawmakers. A survey by Pew Research in August found that 56% of voters said that abortion will be very important in their midterm vote, and that's up from 43% in March. Let's talk about it. We've got Alexis McGill Johnson, President and CEO of the Planned Parenthood Action Fund. Alexis, thanks so much for coming back on The Takeaway.

Alexis: Thanks for having me, Melissa.

Melissa: We have Laphonza Butler who is president of Emily's List, which works to elect pro-choice Democratic Women to office. Thanks so much for joining us, Laphonza.

Laphonza: Thanks so much for having me.

Melissa: Alexis, I just want to start with the most core question relative to abortion being on the ballot, or at least A-core question. For decades, the received wisdom of political sciences and political watches has been a majority of Americans support legalized abortion, but the minority who oppose it are simply much more likely to vote on that as their issue. They hold that position more strongly. It's more likely to determine how they vote at the ballot box. Has that changed now?

Alexis: Look, I think that that conventional wisdom has been somewhat true, but I think in large part because we had the constitutional protection that most Americans also believed. Those who supported access to abortion believed that the Roe v. Wade would remain the law of the land. I think that that actually obviously was consistent for 49 years. The fact that the opposition has been so systematic in really consolidating control and power all the way through state houses all the way up to the federal judiciary in the Supreme Court, means that's no longer a reality. I think what you're seeing on the other side of that is an animation and energy coming from voters who support abortion rights who will show up very strongly this November.

Melissa: Laphonza, that same asymmetry was often visible with candidates. You had candidates who opposed abortion rights, really willing to hold that mantle, "I am Pro-Life." Whereas so frequently, again this is all prior to Dobbs, there were so many pro-choice candidates who maybe didn't even use the word abortion while campaigning. Can you talk to me about how this has also affected the strategy of Pro-Choice Democratic candidates?

Laphonza: I think the asymmetry that prior to Dobbs and now in a post-row world, as Alexis plan out, absolutely applies to candidates and parties alike. I think as the Democratic Party, the conversation was more about Pro-Choice than it was what it meant to have reproductive freedom with a full access to abortion services. I think what we now are seeing post the Dobbs decision and now after what everyone thought would forever be a protected freedom in this country, I think that the demand that voters are articulating and candidates are putting forth is that that full spectrum of reproductive healthcare has to be fully accessible to all people across this country and that our freedom to make decisions about our own bodies should not be mandated by state borderlines.

I think that while voters have, poll after poll, said that they are in support of legalized abortion services, candidates and parties are now having to speak directly to that freedom as it is now no longer protected by federal law.

Melissa: Alexis, take us back to August for a moment. Kansas was the first state to actually vote on abortion rights since that June 24th ruling. Let's just take a listen.

Speaker 1: We begin tonight with a resounding victory for abortion rights in Kansas, where voters there rejected a ballot measure that would've eliminated state constitutional protections for the procedure. Voters turned out in droves with numbers on par with a general election.

Melissa: Alexis, now voters in five states, Vermont, California, Michigan, Kentucky, Montana, they're all going to be voting not only on candidates, but directly on abortion through ballot measures. What are you all seeing out there in that world?

Alexis: Look, I think at Kansas was a surprise to us all. I'm sure Laphonza would agree that we had worked incredibly hard to make sure that Kansas would stay competitive, but it is obviously a very conservative state. We were certainly surprised by the margin there. It's a case where access to abortion was literally on the ballot and Kansans came out and droves to protect their reproductive freedom. They did so in a way where they had the opportunity to engage in direct democracy. I think what's really important about these ballot initiatives that we are seeing in states like Michigan and Kentucky is that when you have had, over the last decade and a half, extreme gerrymandering in many of these states that are also banning access to abortion, the only way to assert one's voting power is through direct democracy.

I think that is the energy that we are seeing, that people are feeling the fact that they have an opportunity to really demonstrate that the majority of people in virtually every state believe that that Roe should have been the law of the land, and they're making themselves heard.

Melissa: I'm wondering about this strategically, and either one of you want to jump in on this. I'm wondering if having abortion rights, the instantiation of them, in some of these states, it's about ensuring that existing provisions that are protecting abortion remain right in law, in Constitution. In others it's about overturning and now becoming consistent with an anti-abortion perspective. I'm wondering if removing abortion from the candidate fight allows folks who, for example, might be Republicans and pro-choice to vote with their left hand to support abortion rights, vote with their right hand to put in Republican candidates, but then those Republican candidates as lawmakers may in fact move in a way that reduces access and does not protect abortion rights.

I'm just wondering about the strategy of separating the policy from the candidates.

Laphonza: I appreciate very much the question and how you are framing it, Melissa. I think the intention strategically is not to separate. At least the work of Emily's List is we are working to ensure that voters know exactly who is standing with them as candidates in terms of the majority will of the people to protect abortion access in this country. I think what Alexis said is also true. The extreme gerrymandering that happens in this country every 10 years is also incredibly problematic. In a district that majority of them feel as if abortion should remain accessible and legal, because of the way those districts are drawn, the likelihood that they are going to be able to elect someone who supports their position or who will not only say that they support their position, but also vote in a way that communicates that.

I think it's a both/and opportunity, and that we've have got to do the work to ensure that women have the access in this country to the reproductive healthcare that they need and make sure that we are doing everything that we can to elect those to public office who stand with the majority of voters in this country. We see it happening right now. You are calling out like where Republican candidates across the country are trying to scrub their websites from past comments or positions they have taken around abortion access. I think our work and the work of the candidates supported by Emily's List is not only to articulate their position of standing with the majority of the American people, but to also continue to call out and get on the record every candidate who is running for office to ensure that the people know exactly who it is that they're voting for and who it is that's standing with them.

I think we've have got to do both in this moment that is such a crisis. We've never experienced a court take away a right in this country. I think what we see happening in this electoral cycle is the urgency of ensuring the healthcare access as well as the governing representation.

Melissa: Let's go down to Arizona for a moment. Jay, do we have that Arizona sound?

Speaker 2: We begin with the big court decision today banning nearly all abortions in Arizona after the judge lifted an injunction this afternoon on a law from before Arizona became a state. It says abortions are only allowed to save the mother's life.

Melissa: Alexis. There is an open-seat gubernatorial race in Arizona. We've been covering that race here. What does this ruling mean?

Alexis: Well, you heard it in the debate last night, right? I think going back to Laphonza's point, that the contrast is so clear in many of these races. You have candidates who have been fervently on record opposing access to abortion run proudly as candidates who are willing to ban abortion outright with no exceptions for rape, for incest, for health of the life of the mothers. Who are willing to jail doctors to provide care. You see this over and over again. Then when the right is actually taken away and the reality sets in and the reality of what patients are experiencing in Arizona, the travel that they are undertaking, everyone knows someone who is facing these challenges or would have to face these challenges.

It becomes really clear that people have a choice and I think you see that with a candidate like Masters, who was out there touting his record and then trying to scrub his website j just days later after the decision on the ban.

Melissa: Laphonza, Let's go to Michigan, one of the most competitive gubernatorial races nationally. Gretchen Whitmer up against her anti-abortion Republican opponent Tudor Dixon, What's going on in Michigan?

Laphonza: Look, what is going on in Michigan is that leaders across the country and organizations have been doing the work, not just for the election, but to ensure that Michiganders continue to have the healthcare access they need, whether it's organizations like Planned Parenthood suing an Attorney general, or the leadership of Governor Whitmer suing to ensure that reproductive health continues to be accessible in the state or coalitions of community groups coming together to get historic numbers of signatures gathered to put this issue directly to the people of Michigan about protecting their constitutional right.

We have on the ballot, on the other side, a Republican candidate by the name of Tudor Dixon, who has not only said once, not twice, but three times that the example of a 10-year-old who was raped as a perfect example of why there should be a national ban. Again, the contrast in this conversation about reproductive freedom in this country could not be more clear, who is standing with the majority of the American people and who is not. There is a lot happening in this space, in the state of Michigan. Governor Whitmer has proven herself to be a champion that is standing with the people of Michigan, and there's a choice to make on November 8th.

Melissa: Alexis, let's go to Wisconsin. That's where you're going to be heading this weekend. What is happening in that state?

Alexis: Well, again, you have a candidate like Mandela Barnes running for Senate as well as a governor. I think that the strategy on the national level, we have a number of obviously state races that are incredibly important, but on the national level what is so important right now is to protect abortion access, is both to get to 52 in the Senate so that if we preserve the house and the Senate and get to 52, we will be able to essentially codify Roe through federal legislation, which would be incredibly important given the threat of a national abortion ban coming out of the right. It's also incredibly important for us to protect governors.

Governors play an important role in blocking legislation in states that could be important. I will be out there campaigning with candidates like Mandela Barnes and Tony Evers, who support the reproductive freedom, including access to abortion, and ensure that we can hold that state and protect access there.

Melissa: Speaking of governors, Laphonza, you were in the state where I live, North Carolina, last week. Right now, Democratic Governor Roy Cooper has blocked multiple attempts to restrict abortions here in the state. We're basically about the southernmost place in the country, here in North Carolina, where abortion remains relatively in a pre-Dobb circumstance. What's going on in this state for the midterms?

Laphonza: A state like North Carolina could not be more critical. As you noted, for the region North Carolina is it in terms of where women can go to get the reproductive health services that they may need in terms of abortion access. I was glad to be in North Carolina and do events with the governor and with members of the state legislature in North Carolina. Not only do we have a historic opportunity to send Chief Justice Cheri Beasley to be one of the US Senators in the country and the first Black woman from North Carolina to do it. It is also an opportunity where we have to also focus on that state legislature to ensure that Governor Cooper does not lose the numbers that he needs in that legislature so that his veto cannot be overturned.

He has the power of the pen to veto extreme legislation that might come from the state legislature. If the Republicans in the state of North Carolina are able to get the number that they need to have the super majority in that legislature, then the governor's veto will matter not, and the entire region, the southeast region, hundreds of thousands of women will lose access to the services that they need. The activity that we were seeing on the campuses of North Carolina State and North Carolina Central, the engagement that Chief Justice Beasley is doing in all 100 counties of North Carolina, I think is incredibly important.

We were told while I was there by Lillian's List, the local organization of North Carolina who was focusing on electing democratic pro-choice women in the state as well, that there have been more than 30,000 women to register to vote since Dobbs in the state of North Carolina. The opportunity is there, what is at stake could not be more clear, and ensuring that we are voting up and down the ballot in a state, in all of these races this cycle, is going to be incredibly important.

Melissa: Alexis, when Planned Parenthood Action, when they show up and are representing and walking with candidates and saying, "Planned Parenthood is here", given that attacks from the right over the past decade have attempted to reframe Plant Parenthood as an enemy of the people rather than as a healthcare provider, do you ever encounter or run into either candidates' campaigns, communities that are like, "Hey, we want to preserve abortion rights, or we want to extend them, but we don't want Planned Parenthood here because we're worried that Planned Parenthood will somehow be seen as a negative rather than as a benefit?"

Alexis: Very rarely. Now, Melissa, and certainly not post-Dobbs. I think the work of the Planned Parenthood Action Fund over the last decade has really been to help candidates understand that running on access to reproductive freedom, running on access to protecting abortion rights, actually is a winning issue. It is important. I don't want to discount all of the energy that has come from the Dobbs decision is certainly authentic and clear. A lot of work has happened behind the scenes with candidates, with their campaign managers, with committees and parties to help them understand that this is a winning issue.

People care about it and they don't understand how it could be that they have the majority of support access to reproductive rights in their state, and they still can't have what they want, right? They really need candidates who will champion that. We have found a lot of support going with candidates across the country. The reality is people also understand that one in four people has been to a Planned Parenthood in their lifetime. We've been with them at the most intimate parts of their lives. We are a trusted messenger. That translates into how they see our viewpoint on elections. People are actually clamoring quite a bit for access to Planned Parenthood's local CEOs, as well as the national office.

Melissa: Alexis McGill Johnson is president and CEO of the Planned Parenthood Action Fund. Thanks so much for being here today, Alexis.

Alexis: Thank you.

Melissa: You. Laphonza Butler is president of Emily's List. Again, thank you so much for joining us.

Laphonza: Thank you.

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