Tanzina Vega:

I'm Tanzina Vega. And we're back with The Takeaway. And as uprisings spread across the United States, white people are trying to figure out their role in the fight against police brutality and racism. Tim Wise has been thinking a lot about what it means to be an ally in this moment. Tim is an anti-racism educator and author of several books, including White Like Me and the forthcoming Dispatches from the Race War. Tim, thanks so much for joining.

Tim Wise:

Yes. Thanks for having me.

Tanzina Vega:

One of the things I think it's important to have this conversation, is because often when we talk about race and racism, it's people of color, it's black people, it's Latinos, it's Asians being called to explain and express the issues that they're facing. What is the role of white people right now in this conversation?

Tim Wise:

Well, I think first, it's important to note that it should be, I think, black and brown folks, people of color, who are leading this conversation because they are the ones who are principally affected by police misconduct and certainly by institutional racism. And so I think that's perfectly appropriate. Having said that, I do think there's a role for white folks to play, as there always has been, within the anti-racism and equal justice struggle in this country. That role, I think, is to act in solidarity with those persons of color affected by institutional racism. And that means following their lead and really listening to them. White folks have never really been taught or trained to listen to black folks and brown folks, when they talk about their reality, and then to believe that those persons of color actually know what they're talking about.

Tim Wise:

We're so quick to dismiss their concerns. You have Robert O'Brien, the National Security Advisor, saying he doesn't believe there's systemic racism in policing.

Robert O'Brien:

No, I don't think there's systemic racism. I think 99.9% of our law enforcement officers are great Americans, and many of them are African-American, Hispanic, Asian. They're working in the toughest neighborhoods. They've got the hardest shops to do in this country. And I think they're amazing great Americans, and they're my heroes.

Tim Wise:

Aside from the fact that we can actually prove it, pretty easily, quantitatively as a problem, for him to say that and for, I think, most white Americans to believe that, is to dismiss the lived reality of black Americans. That is an incredibly arrogant thing and really sort of underlying sort of racist thing to do. And so I think white Americans' role is to learn to listen, learn to believe, learn to trust that black and brown peoples know their reality better than you do. And then figure out how you are going to leverage your influence, your power, your privilege, even if it's just within your neighborhood, your community, or your family, to engage in these kinds of conversations about the kind of country that we want to be, as opposed to the kind of country that we are right now.

Tanzina Vega:

So Tim, I totally get that point. I think there's also, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, another piece of this, which is talking about race and racism in the United States is often considered exclusively a conversation about people of color, about black people in this country. And that we're the ones that are supposed to have it. We're the ones that have the history of it. White Americans, in many instances, don't even understand the role that they have in creating racism. And when I say that, I mean it on many ends of the scale. There's a scale of racist events and actions, if you can. There's implicit racism, there's explicit, but I just feel like there's a disconnect between the role that white Americans genuinely feel that they play in perpetrating and sustaining racism.

Tim Wise:

Right. Well, first off, we should just be more precise in all of our language. What we're dealing with is not racism. It's white supremacy. That's the particular kind of racism that we have in this country. It doesn't mean that it's the only kind that could ever exist on the planet, but it's certainly the operative kind that exists in this country and this culture. And it was created hundreds of years ago. Obviously, no one alive is responsible for having created it, but we inherit the legacy of that. And as a result, all of us end up in this society being implicated in it, in some way.

Tim Wise:

Number one, we internalize the biases that are handed down throughout the culture. By the way, not only white folks do that. Black and brown folks internalize biases against themselves and against other people of color. And secondly, we take part in institutions that were established for the purpose of maintaining or perpetuating inequality. So whether we're talking about the labor market, whether we're talking about law enforcement, whether we're talking about the educational system, all of these structures were created on the premise of white domination.

Tanzina Vega:

This type of ignorance, it's just seems foundational to American history. How much does the lack of education about this issue in our academic system have anything to do with this?

Tim Wise:

Well, that certainly contributes to it. We are a country that has elevated historical amnesia to the level of a religious sacrament. And so there's a combination of the things that were never really taught, or the things that were taught, but then we selectively choose to forget. But I think there's even something more foundational than that. If you live in a society that elevates you on the basis of your skin color and says that whoever is at the top of the society deserves to be there, because after all, we're a nation of meritocracy and rugged individualism, and anybody can make it if they try, right? That's our foundational mythos. That's our secular gospel. If you tell people that, if you say, wherever you end up is all about your own effort, and then you end up with a profoundly unequal system because of those structures that you've just alluded to, it can't be very surprising, can it, that all throughout your history, you're going to have people who rationalize the inequality that they see because they were led to believe that wherever people end up is all about them.

Tim Wise:

And we have believed that. That is our secular gospel. It's Genesis 1:1 in the Bible of Americanism. And so until we challenge that mentality that was constructed alongside a systemic and institutional structure of deliberate inequality, we're never going to get at the root of this thing, because we're going to keep blaming the victims of racism for their experience of it.

Tanzina Vega:

We are obviously watching this uprising unfold across the United States. It is one of the most visible displays of black pain in the United States that I've ever seen, and that's after covering Ferguson and watching these uprisings happen across the country. White Americans are protesting in these movements. What is their role, Tim? What is it that is expected at this point of white Americans who want to engage in these events?

Tim Wise:

Well, I hope that the white folks who were joining are joining because they understand the importance of black and brown-led struggle. And they want to be part of that in terms of real solidarity, the way that white abolitionists were, the way that white folks in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and others in the civil rights struggle where. I worry that some just sort of see this as this historic moment that they want to be a part of, and they don't really connect, necessarily, to the pain that you're talking about. I hope I'm wrong about that. I think there's a lot of goodwill and a lot of really good intention.

Tim Wise:

The problem is, of course, white good intentions sometimes can get in the way of real movement strategy. I think one of the things that's really important right now, you have groups like Surge that works directly with Black Lives Matter chapters around the country and other black and brown-led organizations around racial justice. And Surge is encouraging white folks to show up, but to do so in a way that that supports the leadership of black and brown folks in this struggle, that in the case of these demonstrations, they've been telling white folks, "Look, come and form a perimeter around black folks to protect them from police. Because we know that, given the chance, police are going to be more brutal towards black protesters than they are white protesters. We saw that in Ferguson, we've seen that in Baltimore, we've seen that around the country."

Tim Wise:

So it is about going and working as soldiers for social justice under the leadership and direction of black folks who run this movement. That, I think, is the role of white folks, is to show up, hold the sign, stare down the officers who really, frankly, in many cases want to tear gas you and may very well do so, and demonstrate that you believe in a different and a new America than the one that we have right now.

Tanzina Vega:

Tim Wise is an anti-racism educator and the author of several books, including the forthcoming Dispatches from the Race War. Tim, thanks for joining us.

Tim Wise:

Oh, you bet. Thank you.

Tanzina Vega:

-We'll be continuing our conversations about the role of white people in anti-racism work in the coming days. If you have thoughts or questions, give us a call at 877-8MY-TAKE.

Tanzina Vega:

And that's our show for today. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Tanzina Vega, and this is The Takeaway.

Speaker 4:

PRX.

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