Tanzina Vega: With criminal justice reform an issue in this election, the voices of incarcerated people are as relevant as ever to the national conversation, but it's often a group that the media talks about but rarely to. The Marshall Project is a nonpartisan, nonprofit news organization focused on the US criminal justice system, and they've been doing just that by conducting surveys of thousands of incarcerated people about their political leanings and beliefs. Their most recent survey was of 2,400 incarcerated people, and it focused on how that population feels about proposed criminal justice reforms, including defunding the police. Joining me now to talk about these surveys is Nicole Lewis, a staff writer for the Marshall Project. Nicole, thanks for joining me.

Nicole Lewis: Very nice to be with you again.

Tanzina: We've been talking-- We just wrapped a segment about efforts to defund the police in Minneapolis, what did your survey find about what incarcerated people thought about that issue? Well, not specifically in Minneapolis but just the broader efforts to defund the police, and also, how is it defined?

Nicole: Sure. We took a pretty narrow definition. We asked people what they thought about defunding the police, which meant taking some money away from the police departments and allocating that funding to services and to programs that could have prevented violence. What we found was that, overall, many of the respondents were supportive of this. Many more Black respondents than white were in favor, but across the board, there was broad support for this definition of defund.

Tanzina: One of the things that really stood out to me was that we often rarely hear-- We rarely, I should say, hear from people who are currently incarcerated. What was the goal in attempting to get these voices, thousands of people that you all have spoken to?

Nicole: Yes, that's right. This is a community that is often talked about on the campaign trail, talked about when we talk, when we're thinking through policy, but we rarely hear directly from them. This was an opportunity for us to say, "Hey, something like defund, something like Black Lives Matters," as we're thinking through these policies. As we're reckoning with the way we think about crime, the way we deal with it, why don't we actually ask people who are potentially most impacted by the solutions that we come up with, and also, who have a direct experience and deeper insight into the kinds of situations, the kinds of circumstances that a person might find themselves in when they turn a corner and go down the wrong path.

When a crime is committed, what was going on in their lives? Can they help us understand if we can work backwards what might have made a difference to prevent that crime from happening? I just think this was a real moment to get their voices and to get some of those ideas out from behind bars and back into the general public while this conversation is going on nationally.

Tanzina: I think it's critical work that you all have done here. I think, often, when we hear about political engagement around, for example, people who were formerly felons, who are attempting to vote, we've talked a lot about what's happening in the state of Florida, it's often people who have already left the criminal justice system. When we think about people who are currently in the criminal justice system, who are currently behind bars, there's sort of an assumption that there is not a lot of political engagement. You found what in your reporting?

Nicole: Yes, this survey is, I should say, the second survey that we conducted. In March, we actually released a broader survey that was 8,000 people between prison and jail. We found a ton of political engagement. This is a place-- Prisons and jails are a place where there still is some access to news, however, limited, people do get, I should say. They are able to listen to the radio. We found a ton of people who listed NPR as their main source. They're still tapped in and they're still engaged.

By and large, they're thinking a lot about how politics on the outside affect their families. They're also-- For the first time, many people seeing very clearly the impact of decisions that have been made of the representatives who are put in place, of the judges who've been voted in, of the prosecutors who are trying their case, and they're coming to a greater understanding of why representation matters because they're going through this system that is headed up by many elected officials.

There's an increased understanding of, "Oh my goodness, my vote really matters. It's really important that I pay attention." For many people who may never see, who may never get out, for folks with longer sentences, we found in fact, that prison had a politicizing effect, that they were even more engaged than people who'd come in and had been in jail or prison for just a few years. A big part of that is that in order to get out, if they have any hope of seeing the real world again, that they're going to need to press for legislative solutions, in many cases, the way that their sentences is tied up in statutes and laws. They have a deep understanding of how this country works and where they can advocate for some hope of relief.

Tanzina: President Trump has made a big deal about how much he's done for criminal justice reform, specifically, referencing his First Step Act, did that resonate with the folks that you interviewed, that you talked to?

Nicole: We were really curious to see if there was any interest or support for First Step Act behind bars. We did ask people, and what we found was that this particular survey, 2,400 folks split between prison and jail, I should say, specifically at the state level, these are not folks incarcerated in federal prisons, and they said, "Oh, it's hard to tell. First Step Act, what difference did it make?"

I think a lot of that is because this is a policy that only targets people held in federal prisons and the majority of our respondents were incarcerated at the state level, but you never know. Sometimes, people, just the perception enough, the perception of being friendly towards incarcerated people, of wanting to make a difference, can have an impact, but we didn't see that in this case.

Tanzina: I'm wondering also, with so much attention focused on getting people who have already left the criminal justice system, the right, reinstating their right to vote, whether or not you heard that people really want to have that right to vote even if they're behind bars.

Nicole: Yes, I'd say, absolutely. Despite all of the many differences that we found in this survey, overwhelmingly, respondents were clear that they felt they should have the right to vote, wanted the right to vote, and this expressed an aspirational sense of if they had it, that they would use it.

Tanzina: To be clear, people who are in jail can, in some instances, vote, correct?

Nicole: That's right. The majority of people-- Part of this package, we released a story about efforts to enfranchise folks in jails. The majority of them are still eligible, not convicted or they've been convicted of misdemeanors, but sheriffs' jail officials do not make it easy for those folks to have access to the ballot. Volunteers are really working overtime right now to try to make sure this population can vote.

Tanzina: It's a very important story, and we're glad that you all are talking to us about it. Nicole Lewis is a staff writer for The Marshall Project, reporting on voting rights, technology, and the privatization of services in prisons and jails. Nicole, thanks so much for joining me.

Nicole: Thanks for having me.

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