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Melissa Harris-Perry: You're back with the takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. Economic and political turmoil in Venezuela has led to a record number of Venezuelan migrants making the dangerous trek across Central America to seek refuge in the United States. Since last October, more than 150,000 Venezuelans have arrived at the US-Mexico border, and for the first time on record in August of this year, the number of Venezuelan migrants detained by Mexican authorities exceeded the number of migrants from Central America.

Until very recently, Venezuelan migrants were allowed to stay in the US while they waited to go through immigration court and apply for asylum. Now that the US has cut diplomatic relations with Venezuela, the situation is more complex and the Biden administration announced in mid-October that Venezuelan migrants would start being expelled back to Mexico under the controversial public health order known as Title 42. Joining me now is Ambassador Patrick Duddy. He served as the US Ambassador to Venezuela for both President George W. Bush and President Obama. He's now director of Duke University Center for Latin American and Caribbean studies. Welcome to the show, Ambassador Duddy.

Patrick Duddy: It's good to be with you.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Let's start by understanding some of the causes of this wave of migration. What's happening?

Patrick Duddy: Well, as now several special reports by the United Nations have demonstrated there. The government in Venezuela is fairly unapologetically authoritarian, and the United Nations has documented instances not only of human rights abuses but even of crimes against humanity. This is happening in the context of what is by all accounts a persistent economic disaster. This year some are touting the improvement in the Venezuelan economy, an improvement that sees 100% inflation following a period in which inflation reached nearly a 1000000%.

You have an authoritarian government committing human rights abuses and a disastrous economy. Now, part of what is fueling this movement of people is also that while some parts of the economy have begun to recover in effect as a consequence of the effect of dollarization, large parts of the population have no access to any currency but their own. They therefore really suffer in terms of food and medical shortages, et cetera. It's widely reported that the electrical and water systems have also been increasingly faulty. This is an accelerating problem.

Melissa Harris-Perry: That helps me understand the decision to leave one's country, one's home. How have the severe diplomatic ties between the US and Venezuela made this situation more complicated for those seeking some relief?

Patrick Duddy: The US Embassy in Caracas is closed. The individual Ambassador James Story, who is technically the US Ambassador to Venezuela, sits in Bogota. The US doesn't recognize the government of Nicolás Maduro and has worked over the last several years, in particular, preceding not just the Biden administration, but even the Trump administration to gradually increase sanctions on the government in an effort to convince the Maduro regime to cooperate in the restoration of democracy. Again, the bottom line in terms of your question is that there is no US embassy, individuals wishing to apply for visas to travel to the United States must apply elsewhere.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Talk to me about, in this context also the domestic political challenges the Biden administration is facing. I'm interested in this decision to use Title 42.

Patrick Duddy: As I think any number of American media have reported just in the last couple of days, at the end of last week the customs and immigration authorities of the United States announced that last year there were 2,766,582 undocumented migrants who were stopped, or if you will in one way or another accountable at the US southern border. Supposedly remembering that that number constitutes more than the entire population of at least a dozen American states.

We have in the larger context a huge flood of undocumented migrants. This includes economic migrants, asylum seekers, et cetera trying to cross the southern border. That's if you will metacontext. In terms of Venezuela, very specifically, there was also an escalating problem before the imposition or the adoption of the new policy. In August, if I am not mistaken, there were more than 20,000 Venezuelans trying to cross our southern border.

In September, it was over 30,000, since the adoption of the new rule the daily number has declined by 80% seemingly underscoring the notion that a strong message that people trying to cross on foot on our southern border will be turned back has had some effect. Of course, Title 42 as a statute or as regulation is being challenged by the Biden administration, even as they employ it on the southern border.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Yes. I think that's part of what is challenging here is that notion of both for and against it. Help me to understand when you're giving us these numbers and then we're hearing that the Biden administration is admitting 24,000 Venezuelans through this humanitarian program, what difference that ends up making. Certainly, it makes one for each of those 24,000 people, but how does it or can it alleviate this crisis in any way?

Patrick Duddy: The 24,000 as the numbers I've just cited would suggest 24,000 is a very, very modest number. Moreover, those individuals will need to arrive by air. That suggests that the people who will have access to humanitarian parole, they very well come from a different demographic. They will have to have the wherewithal to apply to arrange a flight, and they'll need sponsors in the United States who are prepared to commit to provide them financial and other forms of support once they get here.

My sense is that the people, therefore, who will come via that channel are not the same people who are trying to make the crossing by land, which would include going through the very hazardous Darién Gap in Panama and then traversing all of Mexico. It's quite problematic. I think the long-term solution has to be an improvement in the conditions on the ground in Venezuela, otherwise the marginalized, the poor, those who are unable to access adequate supplies of food, those who are most likely be suffering from the failures in the electrical and water systems are going to continue to seek refuge elsewhere.

It's worth noting that over 7 million Venezuelans have fled their homeland. This makes it either the largest or the second-largest refugee crisis in the world. In countries like Columbia, which has over two and a half million refugees are suffering in part because their support services are being exhausted.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Ambassador Patrick Duddy, served as the US Ambassador to Venezuela for both President George W. Bush, and President Obama. Now directs Duke University Center for Latin America and Caribbean Studies. Ambassador Duddy, thank you for joining us.

Patrick Duddy: It's been a pleasure.

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