Tanzina Vega: I'm now joined by Paul Butler, Albert Brick Professor in Law at Georgetown University, a former prosecutor and the author of Chokehold: Policing Black Men. We're going to be talking about how the uprisings for racial justice have translated into concrete national policies. Paul, welcome back to the show.

Paul Butler: Hey, Tanzina, it's great to be here.

Tanzina: Let's start with the chokehold laws. Since the killing of Eric Garner by police here in New York in 2014, chokeholds have really been a big part of the conversation around police brutality. Where do many of the reforms stand right now?

Paul: On the state and city level, many jurisdictions have passed laws banning chokeholds, and others have gone even further and banned any kind of neck restraint or air restraint. The whole world saw those very graphic pictures of police officers restraining George Floyd by the neck, by the back, by the arms. It's particularly dangerous when police officers put their hands on anybody's neck. A chokehold is a specific way of doing that but there are other neck restraint devices. I'll tell you, Tanzina, when I look at police manuals that instruct officers how to do these kinds of holds, I wouldn't want a doctor or nurse doing this on me, much less a police officer who isn't a trained medical profession.

Tanzina: Yet, while those policy changes are happening, there's some debate even here in New York City, Paul, about the specifics when it comes to this type of diaphragm compression. There's a debate here in New York as to whether or not some of the language in provisions that would ban chokeholds go far enough. Right now, there's a question about whether or not chokehold should be made illegal only if they cause injury due to asphyxiation. Do you have any initial thoughts on that?

Paul: It's an uncomfortable reality that there's some police work that's just straight-up violent. If the police believe, reasonably, that they face a deadly threat, they can take you out. Under the law, it doesn't matter how the police kill you if they have legal justification to do so. The same thing is true with other forms of violence. They have to be equivalent to the threat. If someone is causing a non-deadly threat, the police can use non-deadly force in response.

Tanzina: Paul, let's talk about no-knock warrants, which we talked a lot about when it comes to the case of Breonna Taylor. Breonna's Law has been passed, at least, at the city level, but are we seeing efforts to change and curb no-knock warrants around the country?

Paul: We are. Part of this is constitutional, and that's good news for activists because that way you can get broad base changes as opposed to having to go to the 18,000 different police departments in the United States and ask each chief if they can stop no-knock warrants. A no-knock warrant is an exception to the general requirement under the Constitution, that when the police are serving a search warrant, they're coming to your house to look for stuff, they have to knock on the door and they have to tell you that they're police officers. The Fourth Amendment demands that according to the Supreme Court, but there are exceptions when knocking and announcing would put the police in jeopardy. A lot of people think that those exceptions have been way overused, but judges tend to be respectful, let's say, to police officers and grant these warrants even in cases in which they're probably not necessary.

Tanzina: Paul, one of the things that we've heard throughout the summer is that many protesters in this uprising for racial justice have been calling to "defund the police." Some people are straight abolitionists and say police departments should be completely disbanded. Others are saying that that translates into siphoning resources away from police, towards other community-based programs. Where do those efforts stand, Paul?

Paul: As you say, defund the police means different things to different people. To some folks, it's an understanding that the best first responders to every emergency aren't always people with guns. Even President Trump, who hasn't been a leader on these issues, has an executive order, which talks about the importance of call first responders. When someone calls 911 and it's a mental health crisis or an issue arising from homelessness or addiction, in addition to or instead of people with guns, mental health counselors, sometimes, elders from the community are better at resolving these than cops. Even Trump's executive order recognizes the importance of those additional call responders. Of course, a lot of people go further when they think about defund the police. They think about reallocating money that goes to policing to other kinds of community services, violence prevention, health care, things that advocates say make communities safer than having people with guns and the power to arrest show up often after harm has been done.

Tanzina: Paul, we'll be watching as this conversation continues. Are there any other efforts, at least nationally, when it comes to police reform that we should be paying attention to?

Paul: So many, Tanzina. We can think about jurisdictions that are now requiring body cameras that didn't before, lots of movement on the issue of transparency, documenting hate crimes. In New York City, there's a new requirement that police disclose the various kinds of surveillance tactics that they use. Qualified immunity is something that a lot of people are talking about. Right now, the law is basically, "You can't sue me, I'm a cop," and a lot of people think that makes police officers less accountable because they're not personally on the line, so there are moves all over the country to try to limit this doctrine of qualified immunity.

Tanzina: So the protests are working?

Paul: According to The New York Times, this summer, we've seen the largest social protest movement in the history of The United States. June 6, 2020, on that one day, almost 600,000 people protested in 550 places all over the country. According to estimates, overall, somewhere between 15 and 25 million people have taken part in these protests. The story Civil Rights Days from the 1960s, we can think about the March on Washington of 1963 that had probably about 250,000 people, about 70% to 80% of those were African-American, compare that to the number of protests now all over the country. Again, we're thinking in the millions and millions, not hundreds of thousands. Anecdotally, many, if not most of the protesters, have been white, and part of this is about the pandemic and people having more time to watch the news. If you saw that video of that cop putting his leg on the neck of George Floyd, if you weren't moved by that, you're not a human being. Thankfully, human beings saw that and they stepped up, and I think that's directly responsible for this rush of legislative activity we're seeing all over the country.

Tanzina: It's one of the most difficult things I've seen in quite some time. Paul, thank you so much as always for your insights. Paul Butler is the Albert Brick Professor in Law at Georgetown University. Thanks so much, Paul.

Paul: Always a pleasure.

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