Melissa Harris-Perry: You're listening to The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. In Ukraine today is the day of celebration and sadness. On this day 31 years ago, Ukraine declared independence from the Soviet union after nearly 70 years under Moscow's control.

This came was the USSR was slowly crumbling in many Soviet satellite states had already established democracies after the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989. Ukraine's independence day is typically marked with the military parade in the capital, air force pilots flying over the independent square in Kyiv, and people gathering in their local town squares to celebrate.

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Melissa Harris-Perry: That was what some of the celebrations sounded like in Kyiv one year ago. When Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24th of this year, that changed. Today also marks six months since the start of Russia's war on Ukraine and in the capital today, Kyiv authorities have banned mass gatherings for fear of intensified attacks from Russia, destroyed and burned-out Russian tanks and military equipment lined the capital's main street, a quiet triumphant nod to Russia's president who had once hoped to overtake the City. Across the Us vigils and events were held throughout the week in solidarity with Ukraine.

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Melissa Harris-Perry: Last night, a crowd gathered at a park at lower Manhattan in a candlelight vigil organized by Razom, a nonprofit in New York working to support Ukraine. Attendees were Ukrainian flags and held candles to honor the soldiers and civilians whose lives have been lost in the war. Joining me now is Nataliya Gumenyuk, Ukrainian journalist and founder of the Public Interest Journalism Lab. She's got some updates from Kyiv. Thanks for joining us, Nataliya.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Good to talk to you.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Now, I want to note for our listeners that as I spoke with Nataliya it was about two o'clock in the afternoon in Ukraine. Can you tell us what Ukraine independence celebrations typically look like?

Nataliya Gumenyuk: It's still even today more a day of joy, a very emotional day and very positive and bright. Really usually and more with the years, people were coming to the central streets. The most important was, of course, in Kyiv in the independence square, which a remarkable place also to the Ukrainian history because there were the students protest still during the Soviet Union, at that streets, there was the Orange Revolution, the [unintelligible 00:02:57] revolution. It's really the independence square.

There were the place of gathering. In other towns, maybe in the major Cities, there would be also the similar events. People usually do this in the morning. They come with their family, with kids. It won't be really the military day rather than people would gather the [unintelligible 00:03:20] would wear the embroidered shirt in Ukrainian traditional outfits. There would be a lot of kids. It would be a very calm, relaxed day off. Of course not really today though it's still a more bright and joyful day rather than the day of sorrow.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Still joyful, still a sense of empowerment but it's early in the afternoon for you there. I don't hear you saying somber but maybe just less celebratory fewer people. Help us understand.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: It's totally different because, of course, the Russian tactics especially during the last months changed a lot, they don't really fully fight when military fights the Russian strategies about the random attack on the peaceful towns all over the country. Of course, the rather growing concern and there is an anxiety that because it's very symbolic it's exactly what Russia is fighting.

The Ukrainian independence, the Ukrainians who are celebrating their independence, that any peaceful gathering would be a major risk. Of course, there was no even the discussion that would be anything like a military parade, first of all because the equipment should be on the frontline but also people are not advised to be on the streets. I wonder if you heard this sound I have the air sirens alarm on my mobile as every citizen in Ukraine.

For instance we have the constant air sirens warning. I think the first was something at 6:00 AM, bit maybe later since the morning, it's all over the country. Basically people getting more used to getting to the basement and [unintelligible 00:05:12] their place, I don't know, at least in the corridor or elsewhere. Today we do feel that something might happen.

There is this anxiety. People they congratulate themselves on Facebook, over the media. They still celebrate, speak about the last 30 years, think about the military. Let's say from home imagine the very strict COVID for instance, when you still can do the things but you cannot really be outside, at least, you're not advised.

Melissa Harris-Perry: It's a very youthful analogy there that in those early days of COVID [unintelligible 00:05:47] tried to create some kinds of solidarity, but not physically together, not outside but such a different danger in this case. What does the six-month mark symbolize?

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Interesting. I've just read the very interesting sociological survey by the Ukrainian company Rating. They were asking people what do they feel first of all. 70% of the Ukrainians feel about the country exactly prior to the independence day, they were speaking about pride for their country and more or less and half and half people feel some sadness but also joy because there is generally considered that exactly the Russia wanted to conquer Ukraine to occupy it not to make it independent.

Being firm and determining despite of all the exhaustion and despite all the losses is already victory, the tremendous price had been paid but also what's something I find very interesting in this survey as well, there were a lot of questions. When the people wanted to have some association about Ukraine, they usually speaking about- and Ukraine future they were speaking about freedom, independence and maybe developed European-type country.

There was zero point for people who are indifferent to their future of the country. That's really sociological zero, nobody is indifferent to the future of the country which, of course, is the sign of a crisis moment but still I find it remarkable.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Your point that this survey issuing a universal sense of attachment to the future. Talk to me about what folks are hearing, what you are hearing about what Russia is saying about the future. What has their response been? Has there been a particular escalation in this moment?

Nataliya Gumenyuk: There are two things to say. The first I think it's very important historically. I myself in my organization for the last years we were especially last year when there was a thirties anniversary of independence we were doing the documentary series on the first years of independence and social service all kind of the things. What we understand that the '90s were very difficult for the Ukrainians, the whole collapse of the Soviet union, the economic crisis, the incredible transformation and change. It was very traumatic. Somehow when we talked to the people we felt that people feel that they overcome this trauma.

They feel that this difficult experience made them stronger and they were thinking all the time about a different country in the future. When we really look at modern Russia, we really think that everything looks like the government wants to bring back the Soviet union, this trauma of the collapse of the Soviet union including as the loss of the empire was not really- the country and the society didn't go through that.

It's really like the whole Russian narrative is about the past. It's about some glorious past in a very this [unintelligible 00:09:01] old-fashioned imperial way. I do think that this difference between the vision of the future and the country which leaning forward and is not afraid of its future compared to the society which wants to go back, which is a clear revenue is the major difference. On short term it's the start of the season. Autumn is coming.

The winter is coming and people do understand that the next three months might be decisive because the important battles can take place just because of the climate severe winter in Ukraine they can't take place just during the Autumn. That would be decisive. Still today it feels like a bit decisive day. People want to understand what would happen, would there be major air strikes, if they won't happen, would it be because the Ukrainian air defense worked. It is an important moment. Then next days would be still quite disturbing for many.

Melissa Harris-Perry: You wrote recently in a piece for the guardian that you have two friends who are prisoners of war under Russian forces. I'm wondering on this day, if you have particular concern for them.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: I do have particular concern. We have at this 0.8 Southern Ukrainians, prisoners of war in Russia, and there is no real access to them mainly there is people who are live peaceful life might not know that there is Geneva convention. There are some rules that there should be access for those people. I know [unintelligible 00:10:44] we don't have anything like that. We have earlier the confirmed cases of the severe torches.

We had the cases where at least 50 soldiers who needed to leave [unintelligible 00:10:58] were murdered during the captivity, which is the war crime. It's a vulnerability. Wherever I think what could be something that Russia can do, of course, we are absolutely afraid about these people and we do understand that it's impossible to just bring them back, but at least to argue that there should be some access for the humanitarians.

That would be very, very critical. Something interesting I want to add, I mentioned those two friends of mine, that's for me, very symbolic that boast of them were people who till the very last moment were participating in all kind of the peaceful negotiations. They were pacifist, anti-fascist, really the people who would be the last. That was their very, very conscious choice that there is no any other way. They had both journalistic background and then human rights background that there was no any other way than physically defend their country.

To do that, which for me is again a showcase also in the people whom I trusted a lot and respect a lot that if they made the decision, it's really shows that there was no any other way and there is no any other way for Ukrainians to defend themself even if with arms, if it's needed.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Obviously, many here in the US have closely followed what's happening in Ukraine. There is a emotional outpouring, there's also an outpouring of global resources. There's been some concern that the global outpouring of resources to Ukraine to address this horrifying crisis has left much of the rest of the globe without sufficient resources. How do you respond to the concerns about trying to think about how, again, NGOs media organizations should be balancing and understanding the Ukrainian crisis in connection with the rest of the world.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: First of all, Ukrainians really, truly appreciate the international support and solidarity. When there would be ever the discussion about this, I call it the competition for solidarity and there would be some call like, Oh, why it's so good to the Ukrainians? Is it because it's European? I do think it's a bit different. It's mainly because it turned to be the democratic state with a very strong society, with a very local government and very functioning state, which actually does a lot all the time in order rally for this support.

Ukrainians compare to, I don't know, Syrians or any other nation who don't have the state behind that like the democratic functioning state behind them is actually doing this. We shouldn't take it for granted.

It's not just because there is a compassion to Ukraine, but because Ukrainians really demand and work and fight for that. I don't think that there are way more resources. It's not that much. Technically Ukraine received the American help with, for instance, this [unintelligible 00:14:04] some very precise weapon. It really saves a lot of lives.

We're speaking about a dozen of them really, we're speaking about a dozen of particularly military [unintelligible 00:14:15] which managed to help Ukraine to leave for let's say another month without a very severe air raid because Ukraine has destroyed some military weapon and military warehouses of Russia. Really it's not that much which is needed, but I also understand that the dependence on the international support it's Ukraine's vulnerability and the Russia itself trying to stop this help.

We should be very cautious about that. In all the rest, I do understand. I was just recently driving through the near Odessa, where is a famous port, which is not working and seen these huge, huge lines of the trucks which we're trying to deliver the harvest internationally. There is very little capacity without the poor. Honestly, I think the world is rich enough and big enough not to let the African countries to feel hunger. It can be just dependent on Ukraine.

Then there should be other countries to come and help. Unless we sort out the whole story with the Kremlin, unless they really stop to attack the sovereign country we cannot bring back the balance of the international security order. That's the most important.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Nataliya Gumenyuk is a Ukrainian journalist based in Kyiv and founder of the Public Interest Journalism Lab. Thank you so much for joining us today and our hearts are of course with you and with your colleagues who are still prisoners of war.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Thank you.

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