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Introduction: This is The Takeaway from WNYC and PRX.

Melissa Harris-Perry: We're turning now to efforts in several states to pass legislation aimed at LGBTQ people. In Texas this week, Governor Greg Abbott issued an order to state agencies criminalizing gender-affirming surgery and medical care for trans youth. This decision followed an opinion issued by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton earlier in the week that providing gender-affirming medical care to minors is considered child abuse under Texas law.

While Governor Abbott is saying that gender-affirming care could be considered child abuse, medical organizations, including the American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics, see there are long-standing and significant benefits for social, medical, legal, and surgical aspects that assist transgender and gender nonconforming youth. We're heading down to Texas to see how this is affecting trans youth and their families.

Kai: My name is Kai Shappley, and my pronouns are her/she like the candy bar.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Kai is 11 years old and she told one of our producers her story in her own words.

Kai: Well, I was three years old, and my mom was like, "My kid is very feminine," because I was. I was always playing with girls, I thought that guys were yucky. I would tell my mom that I'm a girl. She was in, what she calls, a conservative way of thinking. Back then she didn't really understand what was going on. She thought it was something bad, like the devil had taken a hold of me.

Until one day, she went to her therapist to ask for advice. The therapist said, "If you were on a deserted island with your child, would you let them wear dresses?" She would say, "Yes, no one would be watching." The person was like, "God's watching. Your problem isn't with the Lord, it's with the way you think people will perceive you." Then from that moment on, she was like, "Oh, I see." She slowly started to realize, and here we are with my great amazing mom who is always here and helping me.

Melissa Harris-Perry: For Kai's mom Kimberly Shappley, it's been a rough week.

Kimberly Shappley: Everything that's happened this week with our Texas Attorney General and our governor is not a surprise to the LGBTQ community, the trans community specifically. When they did not get this to pass during the legislative session, we already knew that we could anticipate that they were going to stir their base, and that's exactly what's happened.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Kimberly has been a staunch supporter of her daughter. She testified in front of the Texas Senate Committee on State Affairs last year when the same issue was being considered as a bill in the Texas legislature, but the bill didn't pass. In response to Governor Abbott's order, the ACLU of Texas issued a statement on Thursday saying, "Paxton's opinion is not legally binding and it remains up to the courts to interpret Texas law and the Constitution."

Kimberly Shappley: My brain tells me that this isn't legally binding and we know that. I spent all day yesterday and the majority of today talking to attorneys and talking to Equality Texas and the ACLU and gathering information. While we know that it's not legally binding, we also know that it just takes one rogue CPS worker to cause a lot of problems for an innocent family.

We know that the rhetoric that's being stirred up by the leadership in Texas right now is very dangerous for us, not just for the mental health of our trans youth, but also for our families, when their followers, when their base become violent towards trans kids and their families. I think that that's what a lot of people are not understanding is just how dangerous this is for our families.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Issues like this that are aimed at LGBTQ people, they're not just happening in Texas.

Kimberly Shappley: Alabama, this next week, is actually hearing a bill to make this happen, which would actually be a law which would be binding. Hopefully, what's going on in Texas, which isn't legally binding, is waking people up to the reality that this is happening to trans kids across the entire United States, it has not received enough media attention, and that people need to get involved. There are very few states that are safe for families of trans kids right now, and the very few states that are safe for trans kids right now are simply unaffordable for many of us in the community.

Melissa Harris-Perry: As Kimberly said, in Alabama this week, the State Senate passed a bill that would prohibit transgender minors from being given gender-affirming care, and lawmakers are also trying to advance a bathroom bill that would bar transgender students from using school bathrooms that align with their gender identity.

Also, in Florida on Thursday, the State House passed a bill dubbed the Don't Say Gay Bill, which would prohibit classroom discussion in the state's primary schools about sexual orientation or gender identity. For a while, Kimberly thought about moving out of Texas, but despite everything, she and her daughter have found a home in Austin. She said, there aren't many other safe places to go for trans youth.

Kimberly Shappley: We were really having a difficult time in our former community that I had lived in for so long. It got to the point where it wasn't even safe or comfortable to go to town for me once we were outed in the media. The schools were not affirming. It was doing a lot of damage to my kid emotionally, mentally, and physically. Not being able to use the bathroom all day when you're in kindergarten is not good for your health.

We moved to Austin because it was the little safe bubble in the big state. We moved here because the school district is affirming, the community is affirming, the city, the county. They have protections in place for her. We moved here thinking that we could hopefully write out all of the politicalization that was going on around trans kids. At that time, I had no idea that six years later, we're still having this fight.

For a lot of people looking from the outside in, what they may not realize is we've been fighting this since the bathroom bill. It's been six, seven years now. It hasn't stopped for trans families. We have a friend that went through the bathroom bill with us here in Texas, and they left the state for another state because they were tired of Texas, and the state that they moved to currently has multiple anti-trans bills in their legislature that are going to pass. Literally families of trans kids, we're running up safe places to be, and I don't understand why nobody's helping us.

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There are all these trans kids out there who are working in activism, who are out there every day having to do this work that is literally hard on adults. It's not fair that our kids are having to do this, but I cannot wait until these kids are in charge of the country and they can make it a kinder and more empathetic place for everybody.

Melissa Harris-Perry: We're going to leave you with some last words of advice from Kai.

Kai: Well, keep working hard. I know it's tough times, but we'll get through them. Stay strong, stay hopeful, and we won't let this stuff happen.

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Melissa Harris-Perry: For more on this, I sat down with Andrea Segovia, Senior Field and Policy Advisor at the Transgender Education Network of Texas. Just starting with the basics, Andrea explained what gender-affirming medical care means to so many young trans people.

Andrea Segovia: Just like when you go to the doctor, when cis people go to the doctor, they're getting the very best care possible for who they are and their bodies. What we're seeing that be directed towards is mostly trans youth. When they're talking about that, for the most part, they're talking about social issues like a kid being able to use the pronouns that they identify with, use the name that they would like to be called by, wear the clothes that they feel more comfortable in, social transition.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Is this about current medical providers learning and understanding and affirming their current pediatric patients, or is this about separate medical facilities? I asked this in part because I'm trying to understand how Governor Abbott is imagining the enforcement of some of these rules.

Andrea Segovia: [chuckles]You and I both. Like so many other things in Texas, it is not clear how anything is planned to happen. I think it's a little bit of both. People get their care from all different places. It's really what we have been relating it to is abortion providers. You could get an abortion at clinics or in private doctor's offices depending on where you were and also your income and your class. That's the same thing here where there are different providers across Texas in different settings that are providing gender-affirming care.

Melissa Harris-Perry: What does this mean for the Department of Family and Protective Services? It's a state agency, and if they're following this instruction, specifically about informing on families, what does this presumably mean for the policies, the procedures they're meant to be carrying out?

Andrea Segovia: I want to remind listeners and people that this is not a legally-binding document. Yes, Ken Paxton has given his opinion like he's done for many other things, and yes, the governor is telling DFPS to follow the opinion. At the end of the day, the person who is overseeing DFPS can decide to not follow it or to follow it to a certain extent, because you don't want to not take claim seriously, but also too, they're bogus. Allowing someone to be who they are is not child abuse. Point blank period.

We, again, don't know how this agency plans to follow through because at the end of the day too, we are also in a state where there aren't enough placements for kids currently in the CPS system. There aren't enough social workers and case managers for what is happening in our state. Recently, there was a judge in Texas that could not believe that CPS couldn't even locate children that were in technically their custody. Like we see with so many other agencies and entities in Texas, they're in a real crisis, and this being added to their plate, they, for the most part, simply can't handle it.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Let's go back for a moment to the medical care piece. Let's just talk about puberty blockers for a moment, which is presumably prescription medication. I think your point is well made that medical and surgical abortions are also simply medical procedures. The idea that they are set apart for legislative action in a way that it's very difficult for us to imagine that any state, even the state of Texas, would be able to say, "Hey, I have an opinion about whether or not you need kidney dialysis and we're going to block all kidney dialysis or all inhalers for asthma or something."

There's a way that the notion of invasion into an individual and their medical provider making a decision about prescription medication just seems wildly unlikely, except when you say abortion. Then all of a sudden we get how much the state can be in exactly that space. Talk to me a bit about this, maybe less about the actual medical aspect, but have we seen anytime other than in the case of abortion where a state would come in and have an opinion about how medical providers are providing care to their patients?

Andrea Segovia: I'm clearly not a medical person. I would love to say I'm a history buff, but I'm not. To my knowledge, there has not been. I think it's important too to recognize that when we're talking about trans-related healthcare, we're talking about practices that have been in place long before they were being used for trans-related healthcare. You mentioned puberty blockers. Puberty blockers were created for kids who were experiencing growth spurts that were causing actual pain for them. They're harmless.

I think a common thing that's sad is that allowing a kid to transition is causing irreparable damage, and that's not true. Things can be stopped. I think the other part too, is that if a kid and their family, parents, whatever that looks like, has already gone to a doctor's office, already had even their first appointment, so much work has happened before that first appointment, whether it's just having healthy and good conversations with their families.

Also too, seeking mental health providers and knowing that people aren't just going in there blind. I think that's a big common misconception. There are so many people that are making sure that our trans youth are okay and better than okay, that they're happy, and they're healthy, and that they're thriving even in a state like Texas.

Melissa Harris-Perry: When you say even in a state like Texas, what do you mean?

Andrea Segovia: I mean, I hope that at some point in my lifetime, and I am almost going to be 30, I guess I'm still young, even though I don't feel that way.

Melissa Harris-Perry: You're definitely still young. If there's still a two in the front, we're guaranteed you're still young here.

Andrea Segovia: [laughs] Thank you so much. Even in a state like Texas, and what I mean by that is that there aren't protections for LGBTQ people in this state. You can be fired for who you are. You can lose your housing for who you are. We are in a state that very clearly would rather see trans people and trans kids dead than thriving. I don't say that lightly. It's not a zinger for us either. It is the harsh reality that we have gotten reports even from HB25, which is the not allowing trans kids to participate in school sports under UIL guidelines, which is for most public schools in particular.

We have kids that committed suicide because they saw that their state would rather have them outside of a public view than accept them and welcome them, which is what we should be doing. We're talking about kids. It's not okay to do it to adults, but you're talking about kids that are being kicked out because their families don't accept them. When we're talking about homeless youth, 40% of homeless youth are LGBTQ youth. That's a big deal. That's what I mean, even in a state like Texas. It's really hard to be who you are.

Melissa Harris-Perry: We have to take a quick break. Stick with us for more. We're back with my conversation with Andrea Segovia, Senior Field and Policy Advisor at the Transgender Education Network of Texas. We're talking about the order Governor Greg Abbott gave to state agencies in Texas this week to investigate instances of those providing gender-affirming medical care to minors as child abuse.

This move was announced by a Republican governor. It is seen as a political move as Texas heads into its primary election next week. I asked Andrea to explain this outside of the political discourse. How to approach this conversation with someone who's concerned that providing this care to a young person is somehow abusive?

Andrea Segovia: There is a lot of misinformation about trans people and trans youth in particular. It's because a lot of people want to do the sound bits and the zingers, and exactly like you said, thinking about what's going to get them reelected, how can they really get a rise out of their base. For the conversations that we have at TENT, we train and educate and talk to thousands of people every year on how to be a trans ally, whether it's your job, your school municipality, anything. If someone is in our inbox, we are there to help them.

When we've had conversations with people, we start off by asking, "Do you have kids? Do you have nieces, nephews, anything, small children that you know?" For the most part, people say, "Yes, I play with a kid," or whatever that looks like for them. We just say, "You see the joy on their face and you see when they're hurt. When they're hurt, you want to help them. That makes sense." Most people agree.

We say, "What if a kid came up to you and said, "This isn't really who I am, and I'm not comfortable yet maybe being public about it, or I'm really nervous to talk to you about it, but I know that if I don't talk about who I am to you or to somebody that I don't want to be here," because simply that is how kids tend to frame it. They don't have the word suicide in their vocabulary or the word trans in their vocabulary. Most times the stories of kids, especially maybe who have siblings or friends and say like, "I really wish I had gotten that toy."

When they get to a certain point, I think about a story that I know of. It was Christmas time and the only thing that the kid had on her list was that Santa would make her a girl. If Santa couldn't do that, that she didn't want anything for Christmas. Also too, just the overall questioning of why am I like this? The distraught that that happens in a kid's brain of why am I the way that I am and why can't I be the way that I want to be or the way that people think I should be?

Typically when we make those connections of you want to do anything in your power to make kids feel good about themselves, kids that you know personally, this is a part of that. Acceptance is a part of making kids feel confident in who they are. We know from the Trevor Project and GLSEN and all of these other organizations trying to build data that when you're in a school setting especially too, it takes one teacher to drop a kid's suicide rate by 50%. It takes one teacher to use the correct name or the correct pronouns to affirm a kid to change their whole outlook on what's happening in their life. One person.

That's really where we are. We at time have this conversation often of kids and people in Texas, especially trans people, are not thriving, they're just trying to survive. We have to do better in that because people should be more than just surviving. We have people when they begin to understand that conversation in relating it to a youth that they know to also say too that it's harmful when people go from not just understanding but to threats and to saying that people shouldn't exist or saying that people don't belong here.

There is a reason that Texas is one of the deadliest states for trans people year after year. That is because of the rhetoric that's being used against trans people. It's not just, "I don't agree with you," because it's developing into, "I don't agree with you and you shouldn't be here, and I feel okay to take your life because that's how strongly I feel about it," because people who are leading this state are that trans people and trans youth are less than, because they keep attacking and they keep being bullies to people, and especially to youth. That's truly how serious this is.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Andrea Segovia is a Senior Field and Policy Advisor at the Transgender Education Network of Texas. Andrea, thank you for joining us today.

Andrea: Thank you so much for having me. Truly appreciated talking with you.

Melissa Harris-Perry: In this moment when there are several bills circulating at state legislatures that would have negative effects on the lives of LGBTQ young people, it's important to be an ally and to support those people in our lives. We asked you, are there any young trans or gender nonconforming people in your life, and what are some of the ways that you work to support them?

Holly: This is Holly in Sweet Home, Oregon. My sister moved here from Texas. We support her by having her live with us, supporting her looking through women's history and gender history, nonbinary history. We're also connecting her with anything we can find for reproductive or hormone therapy or other therapies that she might need along the way.

Charles: Hey, my name is Charles and I'm calling from Winfield, Kansas. I have a eldest child who is a gender nonconforming using they/them pronouns while I serve in Affirming United Methodist Church as pastor. I have worked to make space for more folks by including pronouns on name tags that we use at the church so that they can use their appropriate pronouns and feel confident that people can see them and respect them in those ways.

Joe: This is Joe from Ogden, Utah. I have two family members who are gender nonconforming. The ways that I try to support them is first I just try to listen.

Fancy: Hi, I'm Fancy calling from Petersburg, Virginia. I am a non-genderconforming person, and I feel really supported by my community when they take the initiative outside of just leaning on me and my understanding to learn more about the community and learn about the different ways that people can identify within it. I also feel really, really supportive when people take the time to respect my pronouns which are they/them.

Adriana: Hi, my name's Adriana. I'm calling from Northeast Los Angeles. I'm actually the Pride Club advisor at my high school. I'm a high school teacher, and at my school we have many trans and gender nonconforming and nonbinary students. As cisgender supportive adults and allies, we can share our pronouns when we're introducing ourselves to identify ourselves as allies, and we can tell people as they are creating their identity, we are there for them.

Randy: Hi, my name is Randy. I'm calling from Richmond, Virginia. I am the proud mom of a trans child and I show my support by my fierce advocacy through modeling good and consistent use of their preferred name and pronouns and carrying all of that through with all trans people.

Pam: My name is Pam and I live in Sebastopol, California. The transgender person in my life whom I'm supporting is running for the Office of Lieutenant Governor in the state of Nevada, and I am financially supporting her candidacy. Thank you.

Sherry: Hi, my name is Sherry. I have a nonbinary kid whose pronouns are they/their/them. Whenever anyone asks whether I have children, I always share that I have one daughter and one nonbinary kid, even in casual conversation with folk I'm unlikely to see again. I try not to make assumptions regarding the gender of people I meet. I also include my pronouns in my standard email signature along with a link to why do I share my pronouns.

Deborah: Hi, this is Deborah in Cascade, Colorado. Our gender nonconforming people in our family are supported by us treating them like everybody else in the family. They are no different and we respect their pronouns and their choices and they just are people.

David: Hey, this is David from Portland, Oregon and I support students that are trans by helping to reinforce the pronouns that they use and educate other students in the class if they have questions or have doubt. I also educate myself by going to workshops and reading things and listen and just try to support them in any way I can and know that it's an evolving process.

Sandy: Hi, my name is Sandy and I'm calling from Florida. I have a niece that's trans and I try to give her all my support by respecting the new name she has adopted, reminding my family that we should remember to call her that name as a way of respecting her, ensuring our support.

Caller: Hi, I had a trans coworker who said something that made a difference to him is that I didn't ask him anything. We just worked closely together on whatever we were working on. He did share some of his background, but he said, "I understand people are curious, but can you see what it's like for me for every conversation to be framed inside of one very personal aspect of who I am?" [unintelligible 00:28:12]

Ricky: My name is Ricky. I'm calling from [unintelligible 00:28:15], Florida. I am a nonbinary person who considers themselves to be trans. I actually used to be on the complete opposite fence of that and didn't believe that nonbinary people even existed, but the way that I find people are best able to support me is just honestly through the little things. Using the correct pronouns for me, they/them, using my correct name and honorifics, and correcting people when they say something incorrect about me or about other trans people. What people say and do when you're not around really speaks the most about who they are and how much they care about you.

Elizabeth: Hi, my name's Elizabeth, I'm calling from Natchez, Mississippi. Yes, I do have especially some young people in my life who are nonconforming, and I support them by being a safe person that has been designated by their parents and also by educating myself the best that I possibly can.

Chris: Hi, Takeaway, this is Chris from Los Angeles, California. We do have trans members of our family, and in our community we support them by, "I'm old-fashioned. I practice unconditional love and acceptance." Our trans child goes through with us every day trying to make our way through the world, and we try to support them as best we can. Thankfully, we have a great community of people around us who don't bat an eyelash.

Helen: Hi, my name's Helen and I'm calling from Seattle, Washington. My niece transitioned in the last few years. One of the most moving experiences related to that for me was standing in my parents' kitchen, they're 75 and 80, with her and asking her what pronouns she would like us to use. She was very early in her transition at that point and she beamed. To be able to do that with my parents was incredibly meaningful for me. I hope that she remembers it with the fondness that I do. Thank you.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Thanks to everybody who called in, and remember, keep surrounding those young people with lots of love.

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