Melissa Harris-Perry: Welcome back to The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. You probably know Jesse Williams from TV Little Fires Everywhere, power, and to many fans, he will always be Dr. Jackson Avery in those powder blue scrubs of Gray's Anatomy.

Jesse Williams: [unintelligible 00:00:23] Jackson Avery. Originally from Bald Street. Hold on, hold on, wait, like Harper, Avery, actually.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Now Williams has leveraged our enthusiasm for the characters he plays to highlight social justice issues he cares about deeply. Like in this moment at the 2016 BET Awards, when he spoke out against police brutality against Black Americans.

Jesse Williams: There has been no war that we have not fought and died on the front lines there. There has been no job, we haven't done, there's no tax. They haven't levied against us. We've paid all of them, but freedom is somehow always conditional here. You're free. They keep telling us.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Today, William's acting and his commitment to social justice have come together in a medium that is new for him. The Broadway stage as he takes a star turn in the revival of Take Me Out.

Jesse Williams: With two outs in the bottom of the night, the miracle happened. We got a hit, then another, and then another and another, and another.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Williams plays Darren Lemming, a charming, confident, and charismatic all-star baseball player who comes out as gay during the peak of his career. I sat down with Jesse to discuss his work and take me out. I just want to tell our listeners that you are in fact taking the time to talk with us while actually traveling to the theater. Maybe just start by talking about the effort, the work, the schedule of being on stage.

Jesse Williams: Well, it's funny timing because we are right now in the throes of- I think it's 15 or 16 straight days of doing one or two shows a day for the holiday season. This revival, which we've been doing, I've been in rehearsal since the end of January. We had a run that went through the middle of June, one the Tony, and then we're back here from October until February 5th, having an outstanding time. It is absolutely grueling, yes, physically, physiologically on the throat, the mind, the heart for those who are lucky enough to come to see us as a lot of emotional action happening in the play as well as the comedy. It's really dense. It's fast. It's pushing you from all sides. It's pretty incredible and taxing.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Yet you describe yourself at times saying, "I'm not really an actor." Why?

Jesse Williams: I've said that probably just because I wasn't trained as an actor. I'd never had any ambitions or thought of- didn't really know acting was a real attainable goal as a young person. I started acting a few years before I turned 30 on a lark before I was going to go to law school or film school. Film was one of my majors at Temple University that stemmed from photography. I loved being in the dark room. I loved cinematography. I loved composing the frame that turned into writing and developing projects. Then there was one piece I wasn't participating in and that was getting in front of the camera.

I was like, "Screw it, I'll try that too." I realized that that was actually a huge part of the storytelling process. You're in the driver's seat of so much communication and storytelling is a very much the lens through which most of us see the world, see other cultures. That's something that I've always strived for in my work as an organizer, activist, or anything. It's about representing working people and trying to lift up voices that need to be heard.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Let's talk about the storytelling that you're doing in this role in Take Me Out. Tell me about Darren.

Jesse Williams: Darren Lemming is a star player on the World Series Championship baseball team in New York. It's a little Yankees-esque. He is the best player in the league. On the top of his game and to everyone's surprise, comes out as gay. That's exactly where we pick up. The play begins the moment after that happened. It becomes a real examination of male relationships, heteronormative male relationships, best friends, teammates, managers, other people he's associated with, and how these different individuals in his community react to a word. His behavior doesn't change.

He doesn't have any affectation. He doesn't bring anybody around, nothing changes. He's an alpha straight-presenting man in a big sport. Just the idea, this concept, this word throws many of these men off and has them acting completely outside themselves. It really allows us to examine what masculinity is and can be and has been, what it's constructed of, can it exist without having its boot on the neck of something else, can you still be a man without being homophobic or sexist.

It's definitely also an homage to baseball about an individual and team game, about order and structure and Americana real and perceived. It is a lyrically just incredibly beautiful dense experience that literally has you laughing and crying within moments of each other that I'm still making discoveries in. I think I've probably done about 170 shows by now.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Do you feel like you're discovering something new with each performance?

Jesse Williams: I really do. I really do. I'm so glad that we collectively decided to come back for this unprecedented extension because I am still making discoveries on that stage, understanding the language even more in the moments, and just listening and really being present. I'm also just so happy that we get to share this with this many more people. We've got approximately a thousand-seat theater that is brimming with energy and folks that are seeing themselves represented on the stage, seeing themselves challenged. The world has really changed.

We're slowly evolving to be able to have some of these conversations in public around self and identity and what it does and doesn't have to mean to be a man. We've met by throngs at the stage door every night that are incredibly moved and grateful for that experience. For that, I'm so grateful.

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Melissa Harris-Perry: All right, y'all, time for a quick break. More of this conversation in just a moment.

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Melissa Harris-Perry: Here with me is Jesse Williams, star of the Broadway Revival Take me out. Darren Lemming is a gay man and a star athlete. He's also a Black man. How does that intersection affect the story?

Jesse Williams: It absolutely affects the story. Certainly affects it for me. I've been told from folks who've seen the original, this play was written and performed in 2002, 2003 and won the Tony for best play then. I've been told many times over since we began that this version race feels more pronounced whether society certainly has an impact on that. I think probably my reputation might have an impact on that. It's in my interpretation of events probably has an interpretation on that. It is very much a factor.

We're talking about when you enter a room, what is expected of you, what is anticipated, and how you're perceived, and how you represent yourself, and how you sometimes overcompensate or undercompensate or just resist label. This man comes in with tremendous confidence that he's going to be fine because he's always been fine, and beyond being a Black man, it's specifically about a biracial existence as well because there is a level of coasting that can happen.

I can speak from existence. There's a lot of privilege that comes with that complexion, and having light eyes and having that blend of European and African features is a different passport than it is to be dark-skinned. That's something that certainly is woven into the fabric of everything that happens on that stage.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I'm wondering that that notion of understanding the privilege of your passport, whether it is a passport of light-skinned privilege or that dark blue US passport that carries certain global privileges with it. Is that part of the rejection of the notion of bravery or courage simply for standing in one's self that Darren is pushing back against in the context of the play?

Jesse Williams: I would expect so. Just even hearing you ask that question just reminds me of how different the reactions can be and have been from the audience. We have time and time again. As soon as you get used to the audience being highly offended or really moved or really excited by- and really responsive to the nuance and the detail and some of the language that we're using around some of these issues of identity and perception, then they might fall flat on somebody else but be interpreted we're totally different at the matinee the next day.

It's just such a living-breathing conversation with the theater-going community that is consistently educational and rivalrous. There's so many things bubbling at once. There is, baseball itself is being examined as this emblem of Americana, what Americana claims to be, what democracy claims to be. We are seeing at the very same time in great detail how individuals are actually experiencing it. Then you got to ask yourself what matters more, the symbol or the real-life experience of individuals and a collective existence, which one carries the weight, which one do we take home with us and call real. Which is is interesting

Melissa Harris-Perry: As you're talking about all of the emotional dips, the valleys, and then coming back up to the mountains emotionally in terms of the sadness, the anger at points, lots of humor, and then there's also nudity, which is a level of connection with a live audience that must feel vulnerable. I'm wondering about connecting both that physical and that emotional vulnerability.

Jesse Williams: Well, you know what's interesting is our job up there, and my experience is, to be honest, and there aren't really barriers on that because we're being honest. It's not me up there, it's Darren Lemming and his real-life experience. What is a very real part of sports culture and locker room culture is these guys, in this case, are with each other all the time and all different circumstances and conditions, and that includes when they're changing, and showering, and angry, and fractious, sad, and excited.

The audience gets to also share in that real-life scenario and have to contend with, "Where do I put my energy and attention? Where do I set my gaze? Am I somehow perverse if my eyes drift left or right or down? What do I look at? What does that say about me if I look? Do I acknowledge the person sitting next to me or the left or right of me that we're both looking? Is that, do we do a childish giggle? Do we overcompensate and act extra mature like we're not looking? What do we do?"

All those little decisions are exactly what the characters that you're watching on stage are contending with in that moment. I'm supposed to be a masculine man, which means that I can be girlish. We can pat each other on the behind. We can make jokes about each other because we all know we're straight. Then if somebody isn't, does that change the entire algorithm of how I have to behave? I'm overthinking, I'm underthinking. It just makes everything this unnecessarily in my view as Jesse, unnecessarily complex web of a guessing game.

Really is a way the nudity and the nudity, I should say, strictly through shower scenes in between games, is a way to let the audience share in the reality of what we're all contending with on that stage as opposed to excluding them from that or skipping those moments because that's the real connective tissue that some of these guys are dealing with.

Melissa Harris-Perry: As you're talking about this, I'm wondering either for some aspect of yourself or for others in your life, the process this taxing, challenging, profound, painful, wonderful process, where have you found maybe more softness, more kindness, more forgiveness again, either for some aspect of yourself or for others in your life as a result of this work?

Jesse Williams: I certainly have. I was already, I think it's fair to say on a track of improved emotional maturity, accessibility, both to myself, for myself, of myself and others at that point in my life a few years ago when we got on the track to do this play. That's just through where I was, what I decided I wanted for myself at a interesting hinge point in my personal life and professional life, and through therapy, and self-discovery, and just re-entering my own world and grabbing the reins a little bit.

That expands and extends directly into this performance because you have to be sound and solid, but also completely available to learn and grow. It's totally different. This is my first time doing a play. It's my first time doing a three-act play. It was all brand new and I was-- you got to be scared, and available, and learn that unlike TV and film where prepare a line, you prepare a scene, you do it, and then you'll never say those words ever again in your life pretty much. This, you get another chance at it.

It's both hyper important because it's like acting with a gun to your head on a tightrope. That audience that came Tuesday night, or that's their Friday night, or Saturday night that's all they're going to see most likely. That's it. They don't care if you had a bad day or an argument or you're not feeling well. That's what they're going to see, and that's what they're going to take with them. That's important, but you also get to do it again later tonight. You also get to do it again tomorrow.

That really is symbolic of what I've discovered about life is both, it is incredibly precious, and you got to be vulnerable and available to it to really grow, not just to have the appearance of growth, but then also you're going to get another shot at it. There's very few emergencies in life. You can take a breath and re-approach. It doesn't do you any good or anybody else any good for you to be dishonest about it, simply a poor investment.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Jesse Williams is the star of Take Me Out on Broadway. Jesse, thanks so much for your time today.

Jesse Williams: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to talk with you. We need more of you, more of you, more of you. Everybody, come see the show. We'd love to have you. We're up till February 5th.

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