[music]

Janae Pierre: You're listening to The Takeaway. I'm Janae Pierre, in for Melissa Harris-Perry. Last night, president Joe Biden addressed the nation in his State of the Union address.

President Joe Biden: When world leaders asked me to define America, they do believe it or not excited, can define it in one word and I mean this. Possibilities, we don't think anything is beyond our capacity. Everything is a possibility.

Janae Pierre: On the other side of the aisle, the GOP head, Arkansas governor, and former President Trump Press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders deliver the Republican rebuttal.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders: Biden and the Democrats have failed you. They know it and you know it, and it's time for a change.

Janae Pierre: Here to help us break it all down is Joel Payne, CBS News political contributor, and Chief Communications Officer for Move On. Joel, thanks for coming back on The takeaway.

Joel Payne: Thanks for having me.

Janae Pierre: Also with us is Mitch Kokai, senior political analyst for the John Locke Foundation. Mitch, thanks for joining us as well.

Mitch Kokai: Thank you.

Janae Pierre: Quick gut-level reaction to Biden's State of the Union address. Joel, you can start.

Joel Payne: I thought it was a pretty in-your-face bold playbook for the next two years. It was also a look back to the last two years, and I'm telling you, Joe Biden has this feel for the theatrics in these moments which sounds interesting for an 80-year-old president but he really rose to the occasion. I can tell you the Democrats that I talked to felt really good not just about the substance of what he said, but the delivery. Obviously, it lays out a predicate for the type of reelection campaign he's going to run for 2024.

Last thing I would say it stands in such stark contrast to the image, the nonverbal image that Republicans put forward last night. Whether it was the heckling that happened inside the body, or it was what I would call the pretty dystopian view of the world that Sarah Huckabee Sanders put forward. It just stands in such stark contrast. Not to say that one won't work politically for one and the other but it is such a contrast message. I'm very curious to see how the American people absorbed it.

Janae Pierre: Mitch.

Mitch Kokai: I think President Biden did what he needed to do with that State of the Union, which was to convince the people who needed convincing that he is up for not only serving another two years as president but to be able to run for another four-year term. Remember that if he were to win another election and to serve a full term, he would be 86 by the end of that second term which would be unprecedented, I think, despite the fact that some people have had some concerns about his ability to do the job and sometimes flubbing when he is out giving speeches.

In this one, he was right on point. He seemed to be very energetic throughout. He took the booze and catcalls and responded. We had that interesting moment when he talked about Republicans wanting to sunset the entitlement programs, and then people started booing and then he pivoted to saying, "I guess we all agree we're not doing anything about that." I thought that was a key moment for him. It was also interesting to see the contrast between President Biden and Sarah Sanders. Biden, while spelling out democratic priorities also said that he would like to work with Republicans.

Basically, Sarah Sanders said, "Democrats have failed you. The President is weak. We offer something different. We're offering you the choice between normal and crazy." She really went in for the whole thing of making sure that there was a major contrast and that Republicans are going to work for what they want and not necessarily try to reach across the aisle with Democrats.

Janae Pierre: I want to talk about President Biden, starting off his address focusing on the economy. Joel, do you think his message was effective?

Joel Payne: I thought that President Biden brought his a game in terms of his energy and his intensity. It was such a spirited defense of the work that he and his congressional allies have done. Not only to bring the economy back from COVID but to also really build an impressive record of job creation that you could tell that it actually boxed in Kevin McCarthy in a really interesting way. Obviously, you always have that vision of the speaker and the vice president sitting behind the President.

At so many points, during the address, it felt like Kevin McCarthy was just visibly uncomfortable because of the jujitsu that Joe Biden was doing in that speech and how it put McCarthy in a corner. What are the things you're going to stand for and what are the things you're going to sit for? That non-verbal contrast and that non-verbal message you're sending to people watching at home. I thought that was so interesting.

Janae Pierre: Mitch, will jump to something you mentioned early on. The President also made overtures early on that he wanted to work across the aisle. Do you think he was effective there and if that was well received by Republicans?

Mitch Kokai: I'm guessing that Republicans expected to hear at least a little bit of this. Of course, this is his first state of the Union since Republicans took control of the US House of Representatives. If anything major is going to get done over the next couple of years it will require some bipartisanship but of course, he started with that bipartisan message early on, and then as the speech wore on, it was more laying out the Democratic agenda, the items of the Democrats want to spell out.

I'm guessing that as Republicans in that chamber and outside were listening, they thought, "Wow, each of these things he's talking about are going to cost a lot more money while we're all worrying about how we're going to be paying for our own bills." You asked earlier whether his message on the economy was effective. I think that he was effective in rallying the statistics that look good for him but I think we've also seen in recent months as the Biden administration has talked about adding jobs, low unemployment rates that a lot of people have said, "But yes, we're still dealing with higher prices and it's harder to pay for some of the things that we need, and in some cases, it's harder to find the items that we want on the shelves."

While I think he did a great job of rallying the statistics that are in his favor, I'm not sure that people who are on the fence about him would've heard that and said that it really addresses the questions and concerns that they have about their own pocketbook issues.

Janae Pierre: Following tradition, the State of the Union included guests of the Biden administration.

President Joe Biden: Joining us tonight are the parents of Tyree Nichols, welcome. [applause] There's no word to describe the heart like the grief of losing a child, but imagine, imagine if you lost that child for hands of the law. Imagine, having to worry whether your son or daughter came home from walking down the street.

Janae Pierre: Joel, I'm curious about what you made of that decision to have Tyree's parents there at the State of the Union and what you thought of that moment.

Joel Payne: Obviously, it was an emotional moment to see the parents of Tyree Nichols. President Biden was very direct about the challenge regarding police violence, and the changes and the reforms that are needed. There was obviously across-the-aisle applause and support for Nichols's family. His mother and his father were there in the chamber but it was a pretty extended part in the speech that President Biden talked about the need for police reform, the need to address police violence. I don't know if that would have been a formula you would see a president, a Democratic president in particular go forward with 5, 10, 15 years ago.

Obviously, it's a place that the Democratic Party has been but popularly across the country, I think there is more of an understanding and more of an empathy complex that has developed for the need to really reform police violence. I think that that was on display. Also, there were a number of other individuals that the president invited his guest. You had the gentleman who stopped the shooter in California at the Asian American celebration from a few months ago who received warm applause.

The president used that as an opportunity to talk about the need for banning assault rifles which got loud cheers from the Democrats in the room. Obviously, that was something that Republicans did not support. A good use of that ability to bring in guests.

Janae Pierre: Mitch, I'm wondering, is there anything that you think the President swung and missed on in his State of the Union?

Mitch Kokai: On the item that was just discussed saying that there should be the ban on assault weapons, I think that resonates with Democratic voters in the Democratic base but as you saw among the Republicans in the Chamber, it seemed to be a non-starter. I think there were a number of other instances in which the president started on this theme of let's address an issue that is of great importance to the American people. Then after a long buildup then pointed to a piece of legislation that has no chance of getting through the Congress.

I do think there were times when he really did make a good case. The Tyre Nichols piece of the speech, I think was one of them because he didn't just launch on a harangue about the ills of law enforcement and the need to address them. He started by saying, "Most police are good. Most police do a great job," and I think there was, if not unanimous, widespread agreement for that within the entire chamber. Then he said, "But there are things that need to change and we need to have reforms," and it was hard for people to jump from, "Yes, we agree with this first part, to say, well, no, we disagree with the second part." I think that was a very effective use of his talking about the good along with the bad.

Janae Pierre: Okay, guys, pause with me here. We'll have more on the State of the Union right after this. [music]

We're back with Mitch Kokai and Joel Payne, both sides of the aisle talking with me on the State of the Union. Let's talk now about the Republican response. Mitch, what do you think about the choice of having Sarah Sanders, and what stood out to you from her address?

Mitch Kokai: Putting Sarah Sanders up there showed that Republicans wanted to make a contrast between the 80-year-old Biden and the 40-year-old Sanders. She talked about having new leadership. We've heard some other folks within the Republic Party talking about the same thing. Nikki Haley, who's weighing a potential bid for president, has been talking about new leadership. I think Republicans really did want to make that contrast.

The main thing I got out of Sarah Sanders's presentation was that she was not going to pull any punches. She wasn't really going to talk about working across the aisle. It was basically saying Democrats have gotten things wrong, Biden is weak, and you're choosing between normal and crazy. That's not the type of thing you say when you're really pushing for bipartisanship. That's the type of thing you say when you're ready to jump on the campaign trail and try to beat the other side.

Janae Pierre: Joel, I want to get your perspective on this. During her Republican rebuttal, Sarah Sanders decided to focus on culture war issues. What did you think about that?

Joel Payne: Well, I agree with Mitch. I definitely think she was setting up a choice between normal and crazy. I don't know if she realized what side of that she was falling on. I'll tell you this. She described a world in a scenario that I don't know if most Americans recognize. The woke mob talking about all these horrible social implications of the last 10 years of trying to create accountability and trying to create a world that's fairer and that's more diverse. I'm sure it's reflective of a certain strain of conservatism for sure, but didn't Republicans just run an election in 2022 on that, essentially on CRT, on the woke mob?

I don't get the sense that was effective for them. Interesting to me that they chose that strategically as an underpinning of their response to that State of the Union from Joe Biden. If that is going to be the Republican posture for the next two years, I can just tell you a lot of Democrats are going to feel very good about their chances of holding the White House and gaining a bigger foothold in Congress.

Janae Pierre: Now lastly, gentlemen I'll have a question for each of you. Mitch, where do you see Republicans going from here? Joel, where do you see Democrats going from here?

Mitch Kokai: Well, I think the Republicans are really going to have to choose how much they're going to be willing to work with the Biden administration over the next couple of years, and how much they want to go ahead and start getting into campaign mode. We can suspect from Sarah Huckabee Sanders's presentation that she's already looking ahead to 2024 and helping Republicans take control of the Senate and the White House along with the House of Representatives.

I suspect that Kevin McCarthy sitting behind President Biden was thinking about, "Well, how much do we get into campaign mode already and how much do we try to address some of the issues that we can address over the next couple of years with divided government?" That's going to be a challenge because there will be parts of his caucus who will want to fight all of the time. You saw that in the race for the speaker itself. There will be parts of the caucus who actually want to try to get some things done, work with Democrats when they can, disagree, and agree to disagree when they have to. It's going to be an interesting predicament for them.

I think the other thing, and we saw this with the Sarah Huckabee Sanders speech as well, is that although she referenced working for the president and talked about making trips with him, I don't think she ever said the word, Trump. She talked about the President, and it'll be very interesting to see how much Donald Trump ends up playing a role for Republicans over the next couple of years, or whether they are ready to move on and try to have someone else be their standard bearer.

Joel Payne: Yes, I'm glad Mitch made that point about Trump. I noticed that in Sarah Huckabee Sanders's speech. That she did not mention Trump's name once, she said the president. I was like, "Wow, who is this president that she worked for that she keeps talking about?" I thought that was interesting foreshadowing of what the next two years will be for Republicans. I think for Democrats, I think of it short-term and long term, short term the president laid out battle lines on this debt ceiling fight, on the battle between he and Kevin McCarthy at figuring out how do you get over that hump?

Obviously, there's been a lot of maneuvering in the back room. I think a lot of that spilled out into the public last night. I think there was some foreshadowing of what's going to happen over the next, let's call it two to four months related to that. I think longer term, obviously the president laid out a predicate for his re-election and you heard a lot of talk about finishing the job, having the opportunity to complete the work that he was sent to Washington to do.

I actually think, as most presidents get, he's going to get a bump out to the State of the Union. He's going to hit the road this week. He's in, Wisconsin today and in Florida later in the week. I will tell you, the president feels pretty buoyant coming out of this moment. Obviously, there was a tough week last week with that international incident that got blown out of proportion with the Chinese spy balloon. I think you're going to see a bounce for President Biden coming out of this speech going into the 2024 re-election season.

Janae Pierre: Joel Payne is CBS news, political contributor and Chief Communications Officer for Move On. Mitch Kokai is a senior political analyst for the John Locke Foundation. Mitch, Joel, thank you both for taking time with us today.

Joel Payne: Thank you.

Mitch Kokai: Thank you.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.