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Melissa Harris-Perry: Welcome to The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry.

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Nikki Haley: You should know this about me. I don't put up with bullies, and when you kick back, it hurts them more if you're wearing heels. I'm Nikki Haley, and I'm running for president.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Nikki Haley, former governor of South Carolina and an ambassador to the United Nations during the Trump administration kicked off her 2024 presidential bid on Tuesday. That's right, Nikki Haley is running in heels.

Nikki: We're ready, ready to move past the stale ideas and faded names of the past.

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Melissa: Joining me now is Katon Dawson, former chairman of the South Carolina Republican Party. Katon, it is so good to have you here.

Katon: It's wonderful being with you, Melissa. Wonderful.

Melissa: All right. We've been talking about Nikki Haley you and I for I think a decade now, so why don't you go ahead back and just walk us up a bit through her political trajectory? How did we get from, Clemson undergraduate to presidential candidate?

Katon: You really start in a little tiny place called Bamberg, South Carolina, 1,500 people. Her parents came from India and her dad [unintelligible 00:01:32] a professor at a small college called Voorhees college. She got there and of course, they were the only Indian family and the only Indian family there. Nikki says that her family and this is what's moving about her, she said, every day she came home, her mom and dad said we got to find similarities with people, not differences. They're all going to point out the differences, you look different, you sound different.

She said, every day her brother and her sister went to school and tried to find similarities. That's the neat thing about her, she still tries to find what's similar, not what's different. Now, mind you, when you grow up in a small town in South Carolina and you look different, and you can't get in the African-American beauty pageant and you can't get in a white beauty pageant, which is true about Nikki Haley and they gave her a beach ball for the consolation prize for not being able to get in either one which was 102 miles away from the beach.

There you have it, from that start Nikki-- I was chairman of the party, she didn't know who I was, I didn't know who she was and they said, "You got to go see this woman who's different." She's in the school line giving out doughnuts running against a 30-year incumbent for the statehouse in South Carolina. That means he won 15 straight elections, and Nikki Haley is picking on him, she's running at him. On the weekends, she'd go to the Lexington County which is a Republican county landfills and the recycling centers, and unload trash if you would let them put the bumper sticker on the back of the car. That's the history her. She's hard-working.

She wasn't supposed to win and be governor of the state of South Carolina. At the end of the day, what Nikki Haley did is she shows up and she's going to run for president, but she's always told me every time, "You know I'm going to win don't you?" She called me about running for the White House, her answer was, "Katon, I'm not running for vice president, let me be clear with that. I'm running for president."

Melissa: I love this and I want to get to that because I do think that it is very easy to underestimate, Ambassador Haley and I want to be sure that we understand both the barriers and the possibilities facing her as a candidate. I want to go back to the gubernatorial piece for a moment because I do think we can get some insights into and understand a bit. I also want to understand your point of how she conceptualizes what it means to be a leader in the space. Let's listen for just a moment. This is Nikki Haley at her inauguration in 2011 becoming both the first woman and the first non-white person to serve as governor of South Carolina.

Nikki: Today is a great day in South Carolina. It's a day for new beginnings. It's a day to turn the page from the past and it's a day filled with anticipation of the next chapter of our state's future.

Melissa: All right. Katon, talk to me about that. Again, you and I are both southerners is part of how we vibe even when we disagree politically, but that language of turning the page from the past sometimes doesn't resonate well with Southern audiences.

Katon: Well, it does now. The interesting part is Melissa, we've learned we might not agree on everything, but we can still love each other and that's what Nikki tells you. We don't have to agree on everything, but at the end of the day, when you joined the fight against the common cause, you got to kick all that other stuff aside, and that's what she told us in South Carolina. The comparisons I have, and somebody asked me yesterday Melissa, compared to other politicians, I said, "That's pretty easy for me." Because in 2008 I saw I African American come to Columbia, South Carolina with Oprah Winfrey to a football stadium and damn near fill it up and he wasn't supposed to win. He wasn't supposed to win. He was running against Hillary Clinton and the Clinton crowd.

I've been to rallies of the opposite side, even though I'm a Republican, I go to watch them. What I saw when he came to Columbia, South Carolina was this wonderful oratory skill that he had that's really unmatched in modern history. I watched the enthusiasm, but I saw a crowd that I had never seen before. People came from all over everywhere to see Barack Obama and that's the jealousy I always have as a Republican. We don't get candidates that excite crowds and I'll tell you, I'm moving to that with Nikki Haley.

Yesterday, I had the ability to be on the podium to help introduce Governor Haley and I looked into the crowd, and I've been around South Carolina a long time and done a lot of rallies. What I saw yesterday, was people I'd never seen before that came to their first political rally.

Melissa: I want to zero in on this because, I remember well, the 2008 presidential primaries, Democratic primaries between then-Senator Clinton and then-Senator Obama. Part of how the South Carolina win happens for him is, of course, because the South Carolina Democratic Party is also vastly predominantly African-American, and those who are also in it, who are not African-American, our understanding that part of what they're doing there is holding allegiance and alliance with Black communities in South Carolina. Nikki Haley does also stand at an interesting intersection, in part because of the 2015 massacre at Mother Emanuel AME Church in Charleston. I want to take a listen to a moment that I think again, you and I talked about is, this may be a turning point for Nikki Haley's political future.

Nikki: For those who wish to show their respect for the flag on their private property, no one will stand in your way, but the Statehouse is different. The events of this past week, call upon us to look at this in a different way. Today, we are here in a moment of unity in our state, without ill will to say it's time to move the flag from the Capitol grounds.

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Melissa: All right. Katon, is that going to play as a moment of victory or of defeat for Governor Haley as she begins this pathway towards the Republican nomination?

Katon: When she did that, she just didn't care. She was doing what she thought was right. She knew it was politically risky and the reason why is that a guy named governor David Beasley took on the flag and it cost him the office. With Nikki Haley, it was what she thought she had to do, needed to do and there wasn't a political I had talked to, there wasn't a political bone in her body with that. It was right or wrong. The pain in South Carolina was [unintelligible 00:07:59] I am four blocks over from the church right now, and I can't go by without the sadness of what happened that day.

If you look at our great state, what I said earlier is we might not all agree, but we try to love each other the best we can. Our state came together and mourned and we still mourn every day what happened there. You know what you try to do when you live in the deep south is try to get better every day. What Nikki's trying to do here is really bring the country together the best she can. The first thing she gets to do is be underestimated the same way Barack Obama was. She's bringing new people to it. Her history and past is there. They will dissect it. I will tell you that removing that flag will be an asset, not a liability.

I [unintelligible 00:08:46] comparison have underestimated a politician. The sad thing yesterday was a couple of reporters said, "Do you think America is really ready for a woman president?" I went, "Wow, this is 2023 and you're asking me that question?" The answer was, "Well, we never have had one." I said, "You know what? I've always said the Republican Party will be the first one to do that." It'll be our primary. It'll be our party that should be the first one to do it. Nikki made the point yesterday, Melissa. We have not won the popular vote in seven out of the last late eight elections. The reason why is we had men reaching over to enough people who vote the general election and don't vote these primaries.

Melissa: All right, quick break and we'll be right back talking about Nikki Haley and her presidential announcement right after this. You're with The Takeaway. We're talking to Katon Dawson, former chairman of the South Carolina Republican Party, about Nikki Haley's decision to run for president. Now, Katon I just want to for a moment think through this question of all right, it's not just about winning a general election, you got to win a primary first, and that means Nikki Haley is going to have to beat former President Trump who after all, she did serve as UN ambassador for. I want to just take a listen to something she said in 2021.

Nikki: I would not run if President Trump ran. I would talk to him about it. Yes, that's something that we'll have a conversation about at some point if that decision is something that has to be made.

Melissa: That's 2021. She thinks she wouldn't run if Trump ran. Obviously, he's in, and she's the first challenger in. How is her challenging, but also working for Trump at various points likely to play in the primary?

Katon: Primary voters are going to have their choice. The fact that Nikki got in and is willing to run against Trump has already brought her financial success, it's already brought her people on her party. Remember right now, what we see is, President Trump was a unique individual that got to knock 16 people off the stage one at a time, [unintelligible 00:10:39] whatever and won the nomination. Wasn't supposed to beat Hillary Clinton. None of us thought that to be honest with you. None of us thought that would happen, and he did. The last time he ran for re-election, he lost.

Then in the midterms, when they weighed in, we got a pitiful showing. Just barely got the house representative. We should have gotten about 40 seats, the Senate was about 5 seats. That tells you, you can't keep doing the same old thing and think you're going to get better results. I think Nikki certainly has the passion and the desire to serve. I don't think any of the trappings of the presidency have ever sunk in her mind yet. I think it's the challenge of trying to change the heart of America at the same time in a Republican primary.

Going to get President Trump is going to be hard. He's got a base. I would contend you very well as Melissa ceiling and the floor at the same time. I think he has what he has. What I'm seeing is I think that certainly what the Democratic Party wants, is Donald Trump the same way we were wanting Barack Obama years ago, or Hillary Clinton to run against, and it's hard to go pick who you're going to run against because the parties are going to do that.

At the end of the day, Nikki was willing to step up and challenge. She has the right to change her mind and change her opinion. You do. She in discussions with her family and others, it was like, "Let's go see if we can change the Republican Party, at least pick up all the pieces that are on the floor right now."

Melissa: Is this challenge out of South Carolina by Nikki Haley, the first skirmish in a war for the battle of the soul of the Republican Party? If it is, what does Nikki Haley's Republican party look like versus Donald Trump's?

Katon: It looks very different. I think it looks more inclusive. I think it's more outward facing and I think it'll be built off of a different platform. Donald Trump is very talented. The difference is Nikki has been a governor and a politician before and usually, governors are much more successful than private business people. That has a sexiness to it, but Donald Trump's now the former president of the United States. He's a hard foe, don't get me wrong. I will tell you that I did a deep dive on the Democratic primary first, and the thing that I told you earlier was always sexiest, John F. Kennedy, 41 years old, Bill Clinton, 46 years old, Barack Obama, 47 years old. Right now, the age of Joe Biden and Donald Trump that we are making Ronald Reagan look younger every day. He was 69 when he ran.

My point is, I think the new generation thing is something that's real. I think there's a new generation out there that hasn't signed up for any primary. That it's stepping into the fray because we've been through a pandemic, we're looking at inflation. There are things that matter to them that we haven't seen since the 80s, to be honest with you. That generation is probably going to be able to take credit for whoever wins presidency.

Melissa: Katon Dawson, is former chairman of the South Carolina Republican Party. Katon, as always, thanks for talking with us.

Katon: Melissa, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. As always, I'm so glad to see your success and appreciate your audience who listens to you.

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