Tanzina Vega: It's The Takeaway I'm Tanzina Vega. In the late 1960s, Fred Hampton, chairman of the Illinois chapter of the Black Panthers, galvanized residents of Chicago by championing programs aimed at economic justice, including a free breakfast program for children. In 1969, Hampton was killed by police officers in a raid on his apartment, and he was only 21 years old. Here, he is speaking to a crowd in a clip from the 1971 documentary, The murder of Fred Hampton.

Fred Hampton: Bobby Fields is going through all types of physical and mental torture but that’s all right because we said even before this happened and we’re going to say justices and after I’m locked up and after everybody’s lock up, that you can jail a revolutionary but you can’t jail a revolution.

[applause]

Tanzina Vega: This week, Hampton story is being brought to an even bigger audience through the movie Judas and the Black Messiah, which is out on Friday on HBO Max. Directed by Shaka King, the film depicts Hampton through the eyes of William O'Neil an FBI informant who infiltrated the Black Panthers and supplied federal agents with information that led to the killing of Hampton.

Brothers, Keith and Kenny Lucas are two of the writers behind Judas and the Black Messiah, and they're perhaps best known for their comedy work, but the Lucas brothers have also been working to bring the life of Fred Hampton to the screen for more than six years. Keith and Kenny, thanks for joining us on The Takeaway. How are you?

Keith Lucas: We're good. Thanks for having us.

Kenny Lucas: We're good. Thanks for having us.

Tanzina Vega: Oh my God. I just have a question. Are you guys going to answer in harmony for all the questions? That's what we want.

Keith Lucas: We will try to.

Tanzina Vega: Okay. Excellent. Okay. Well, let me throw this one to Keith and or Kenny, you first pitched Fred Hampton's story to film studios around 2014. It's now 2020/2021 film season. It took a lot of time to get the film made. Why is that?

Keith Lucas: A lot of capitalist studios weren't jumping for joy to tell a story about a Black socialists. Also, I don't want to speak for Kenny, but we weren't the best at pitching the story too so it takes-

[crosstalk]

Kenny Lucas: Yes. Speak for yourself. I was excellent. I think you've nailed it the first time. They didn't want to buy a story about a Black socialist.

Tanzina Vega: Well, it's finally here, but the film centers around the FBI informant, William O'Neil, which is an interesting take here. Why did you guys decide to look at Hampton from his perspective?

Kenny Lucas: I think we just felt like it would make for more thrilling story from a cinematic perspective. I just felt like we had more to work with from that angle while I think Hampton's story is fascinating. You can't separate it from the FBI and COINTELPRO. I think if you're going to tell a big story like this, you might as well go all in.

Keith Lucas: We also wanted to juxtapose William O'Neil with Fred Hampton. We though that at least philosophically, it would be interesting to see one person who was fully committed to a belief system and another person who was basically ambivalent about politics. We just thought the juxtaposition was a lot stronger.

Tanzina Vega: You went from comedy to this film. How does this fit into-- Were you guys looking to broaden the range that you had, or did you find these two things were compatible in some way?

Kenny Lucas: We've always been pretty set guys. I think comedy was just the first outlet that we could just grasp and have fun doing, but we always had intentions on trying more dramatic stuff just because it was an exercise that we wanted to try.

Keith Lucas: Yes, I've always been fascinated with tragedy we studied it in college. We studied Greek tragedy and I think that that was always an interest to us. How can we tell stories that employed elements of Greek tragedy.

Tanzina Vega: We on this show talk a lot about the empathy gap in this country. One of the things that you and I actually have in common is that we grew up in affordable housing/public housing in urban areas, I'm in New York, you guys in Newark, New Jersey. How did that experience shape your work? Is that an experience that has helped you open up to being empathetic and how people can build up empathy for others?

Kenny Lucas: I would say that it was fundamental in our development, just living in such entrenched poverty, you can't help but be more empathetic towards your fellow man, because so much is so shared. You are concerned about their safety from a physical standpoint, you're concerned about the safety of your family from a mental standpoint and you grow very close with your can. I would also say that growing up in that circumstance, you live in like a war zone in a sense, and you develop existential, I developed an existential take on a lot of things and it certainly made me gravitate toward storytelling and philosophy, I would say.

[crosstalk]

Tanzina Vega: No, no, go ahead.

Keith Lucas: I was going to say when you grow up in such conditions, it shapes your mind and we develop PTSD because of how we grew up. I think you see that play out in a lot of the work that we make. We try to get inside the minds of our characters and why they make the decisions that they make and it's [unintelligible 00:06:04] shaped by the conditions that they grow up in. I think you see that play out with, at least with O'Neil in Judas and the Black Messiah.

Tanzina Vega: Also, we've talked a lot about the power of comedy and humor on this show. I wonder if that's also a way to deal with, as you described it. It's interesting. I've described it that way myself growing up in that a systemic and entrenched poverty can have long-lasting effects.

Keith Lucas: Oh yes. Comedy was a refuge for us. Without it, I don't think we would have survived. It's like being able to laugh and in spite of being in such a tough conditions, just like, again, it's a way to get through it. Now, I wouldn't overly rely on comedy. I think people should get therapy if they can afford it and et cetera, but without being able to afford therapy, comedy is like the next best thing.

Kenny Lucas: Yes, I would say comedy is that first line of defense against those issues, those debilitating psychological issues. It provides you like that instant release, and it's free. Obviously you have to get more scientific as you get older, but when you're really young, it's a refuge as my brother said.

Tanzina Vega: Do you suspect that, I'm wondering, we're asking a lot of our guests during the pandemic if they're finding room for joy in a very difficult moment, we've got one minute left, 30 seconds for both of you, what's bringing each of you joy?

Kenny Lucas: Being able to be with my brother, to be with my girlfriend, to spend the time with the family that I can spend time with. That's bringing me the most joy.

Keith Lucas: Yes, without a doubt, my family and my friends and my dog.

Tanzina Vega: There you have it. Keith and Kenny Lucas, are co-writers and co-producers for Judas and the Black Messiah. Keith, Kenny, thanks so much.

Keith Lucas: Thank you.

Kenny Lucas: Thank you.

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