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Melissa Harris-Perry: I'm Melissa Harris-Perry and this is The Takeaway. Last month, we brought you a story out of Louisiana. I talked with Jacqueline DeRobertis, a staff reporter with The Advocate about a plan by Louisiana's governor John Bel Edwards to move children from a juvenile detention center to a facility on the grounds of the state's adult prison, commonly known as Angola.

Now, at the time we brought you the story, advocates and families had filed a federal lawsuit to block this move, saying it would be dangerous for the teens and young adults. At that time, a federal judge had placed a temporary hold on the plan. Here's what Jacqueline DeRobertis told me.

Jacqueline DeRobertis: Advocates are worried about how they will be treated in terms of counseling, in terms of mental health. They're worried about where they will go for medical care. They're concerned about where they will go for recreation. They're especially concerned because there are laws out there that require that youth are out of sight and sound of adult inmates. A prison campus like Angola, which is surrounded by adult inmates who do everything from work on the grounds to clean the bathrooms, to do maintenance, that can be really difficult and really complicated.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Now, a federal judge has lifted the stay, and according to this ruling from a federal judge last Friday, the state can now move ahead with the plan to relocate about two dozen incarcerated young people from the Bridge City Youth Facility to a facility on Angola's grounds. The ruling allows for a transfer of children as young as 12.

Angola, as a reminder, is one of the largest maximum security adult prisons in the country. It is also notorious for its history and contemporary reality of the brutal treatment of prisoners. At a press conference in July, Governor Edwards said that the young people would not have any direct contact with adult inmates in Angola and would be housed in a separate facility.

For more, I'm joined now by Gina Womack, Executive Director of FFLIC, that is Families and Friends of Louisiana's Incarcerated Children. Gina, welcome to The Takeaway.

Gina Womack: Thank you for having me.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Let's start with understanding what the governor is saying about why this transfer is necessary. It began with something that happened at Bridge City. Can you explain to us about Bridge City and what happened?

Gina Womack: Basically, what the governor has said is that there were escapes and various incidents at the facility. Bridge City is an old facility and so the state's claim is that because the facility needs repair and that it had been damaged by some youth in some escapes that this was what precipitated the decision to transfer these youth to the adult facility.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Help us to understand what the federal judge has said here. Apparently saying that the lawsuit that was filed fell short of proving that the state would cause these young people intolerable harm. Can you help us to understand what the judge was ruling on here?

Gina Womack: The judge was basically saying that there was not really a way for her to be able to determine whether or not the youth would be placed at harm due to this move. That just really left us outraged and it was deeply concerning for us because we're concerned for the well-being of the youth. Basically, even if the court decided that move was legal, we still believe it's bad policy. It won't achieve the goals of rehabilitation and we believe it'll do further harm for the youth and essentially our communities by adding more stress and trauma to the young people. Essentially, the judge gave OJJ the benefit of the doubt, but we don't think the state deserves it.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Let's pause right there, Gina. This has been work that I know that you have been doing for decades. OJJ there is the Office of Juvenile Justice in Louisiana. You said the goal of rehabilitation-- remind us in this Takeaway community what the differences in juvenile justice are supposed to be versus those in adult incarceration. Setting aside for a moment that we might have some debates about what adult incarceration is doing, but there are some legal and historical requirements around juvenile justice, right?

Gina Womack: Yes, definitely, and it's pretty simple. Youth have a larger propensity to be able to change behaviors. The reason for the juvenile system is clearly more rehabilitative while the adult system is more punitive. Young people are guaranteed access to treatment, services, rehabilitation, education, and we're definitely concerned that the Office of Juvenile Justice, as you stated, OJJ, it has been clear from the testimony in the legal hearings and just from previous ongoing reports of escapes and violence and abuse that OJJ is ill-equipped to be able to provide those services. They're already struggling with severe staffing shortages and the lack of safety in the facilities. We have no reason to believe that this situation is going to be different.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Talk to me about what the alternatives would've been. I hear you saying that there are real problems, acknowledging there are real problems with the current system with what potentially was happening at Bridge City. For advocates, for families, not that it is your responsibility in this context to offer alternatives, but were there clear alternatives to Angola on the table?

Gina Womack: Yes, there's clear alternatives to Angola on the table and it's the work which is the reason we're so furious because it's the work that we've been working around and fighting for since we passed juvenile reform in 2003. The state had promised to change the system to what it really is supposed to be, rehabilitative and treatment base. The alternatives are that young people should come into the system only when it's absolutely necessary, when treatment and services in the community have been exhausted.

Right now, we have over 70% of our kids that are incarcerated are there for mental health issues, some severe. The law we passed in 2003 helped us to understand that we should be stepping young people down to the least restrictive services. There are many young people that are there for nonviolent offenses that could have been safely moved back into the communities.

The alternative that we're calling for is a clear assessment of all of the young folks that are there, an assessment of the facilities so we can see what is really necessary for us to be able to transform the systems and make them more service-oriented, treatment based so young people could literally receive the services that they're supposed to receive.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Why is the state saying that Angola is where these young people should be? What kinds of arguments is the state making?

Gina Womack: Look, the state is saying that they need to be able to move the young people who require more intense services to Angola. Angola has single cells which is deeply concerning because that just seems like young people will be held more in solitary confinement. They feel that they're able to-- they didn't use the words control, but it screened controlling the young people more than providing treatment to the young folks. The state is saying that they needed to be able to have these 26 or so young people separate from other youth.

Melissa Harris-Perry: What do we know about the effects of detention, incarceration, and solitary confinement on young people who experience it in the system?

Gina Womack: Yes, we definitely understand and know that young people are more susceptible to abuse and suicide. This is one of the reasons that the whole juvenile system nationally is moving, has moved to smaller treatment-based facilities that are dormitory style opposed to the single cell which could lead more to solitary confinement. Where they're going to house these young people not only is it on Angola, it's the former death row where they house former death row folks, and so--

Melissa Harris-Perry: Wait, wait, wait. Gina.

Gina Womack: Yes, I know.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Wait. I'm sorry. I think I must have missed this detail in researching this. The facility where young people, as young as 12, where the federal judge has said will not cause harm, the actual physical space into which they are planning to move these young people was used as death row at Angola?

Gina Womack: Yes.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Since we're on radio, describe for our listeners what this looks like, what this facility looks like where these young people will be.

Gina Womack: If anyone has seen The Green Mile, that's what the facility looks like. It's cages at its best where there's the iron gates that slams shut after you enter or leave. The concrete walls, toilet. The gate has the opening where you would slide the last meal for the death throw inmates. It's no place that the possibility of a 12-year-old should ever find themselves, or no young person, no adult, really.

Melissa Harris-Perry: How many of these young people are young people of color?

Gina Womack: They're moving mostly Black boys to Angola. We definitely see this as a direct line from slavery to mass incarceration. It's so egregious. It's like the governor is perpetuating racial oppression by moving these young people to a former slave plantation and then housing them in Angola's former death row in single cell units.

Melissa Harris-Perry: What's next for advocates?

Gina Womack: We have a petition that, hopefully, the listeners can sign onto. You can go to nokidsinangola.com, and we're going to continue to call upon the governor to do the right thing, to let him know that no child belongs in Angola. We're going to continue to fight for what we know works and that's a holistic model of care that was promised at 12/25 of 2003 that the lawmakers have not fully implemented and fully embraced.

We are going to keep trying to connect the dots so that we can show the ways in which our education system has failed our children, how our child welfare services have failed them, and how the mental health services have failed them because Louisiana ranks at the bottom nationally for every child well-being services. We're working really hard to coordinate services and to fix those systems that put our children in harm's way and at risk of incarceration.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Gina Womack is the Executive Director of Families and Friends of Louisiana's Incarcerated Children. Gina, thank you for joining us today.

Gina Womack: Thank you for checking in with us and being interested in the story.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Now, I want y'all to stay with us because we're not quite done with this topic yet. Next, we're going to hear from a parent whose child is incarcerated in the Bridge City Youth Facility. Stay with us.

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Voiceover: This is The Takeaway with Melissa Harris-Perry from WNYC and PRX in collaboration with GBH News in Boston.

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Melissa Harris-Perry: Thanks for sticking with us. We're continuing with our conversation about a federal judge's decision to allow the state of Louisiana to move about two dozen young people who are currently incarcerated at the Bridge City Center for Youth to a facility on the grounds of the Louisiana State Penitentiary for adults, commonly known as Angola. It's a move that is deeply troubling to advocates and parents.

Parent: I am the mother of an incarcerated youth at Bridge City Center for Youth.

Melissa Harris-Perry: We aren't naming this mother or her son because of our concerns for his safety. This mom says her son is more than just an incarcerated person. He's a young man with a future.

Parent: He is a very great kid, very bright kid with great potential, lots of potential. He loves sports. He wants to do welding. Once he gets his trade, that's what he's going for, welding. He loves to sit down and make music. He loves his family. He's very family oriented. He's just a great kid who was just misunderstood with the system, I feel like.

Melissa Harris-Perry: She told us her son has been incarcerated for about two years at Bridge City and she says the system is failing him and the other young people, and she describes the conditions at Bridge City as inhumane.

Parent: I don't think no parent should have a child locked in cages and know the conditions are horrible. Kids are not receiving services such as education or mental health services, violence, it's not enough staff to keep kids safe. The kids are acting out, I feel like, because they're not offering any service that they should like education, mental health. I feel like children are always in danger.

I worry about getting fights, getting beat up. There isn't enough staff to actually make sure they are safe, and I feel like that's the reason why they just want to toss them to the wolves. Children are scared. That's how they're handling mental and emotion. No child belongs in solitary confinement as a youth already struggling mentally and emotionally to make it through.

Melissa Harris-Perry: She also alleges that her son has been assaulted by staff. Despite the conditions at Bridge City, this mother still fears what a transfer to Angola could mean for her son. Angola is one of the biggest maximum security prisons in the country. Now, officials assert that this is a temporary move. The Office of Juvenile Justice has said that the young people who are moved to Angola will not come into contact with adult inmates. Still, this mom says the court's decision has left her son fearful about what life will be like there.

Parent: Getting beat up, getting mistreated. They don't know. All they hear is Angola and they just hear all these bad stuff. Yes, they are very scared to go there. That is an adult prison where people were executed. I feel they can find a better plan. I'm sorry. Something else needs to be done. The governor needs to back down from this plan and not go forward with this plan. He is putting these kids' life in jeopardy.

Melissa Harris-Perry: She says that since the decision, her son's mental health has deteriorated.

Parent: He's scared. He's worried. He's already suffering with depression, nightmares. I just think that is making his trauma worse.

Melissa Harris-Perry: The decision weighs heavy on her as well. She's distressed by the federal judge's decision to allow the transfer of her son and other young people to Angola.

Parent: Me as a mother, it's horrible. It's a horrible decision. I feel like the judge-- I don't know if she do have kids, but I feel like being that you're a mother and you know what's going on in these facilities, I feel like the decision is disgusting. I feel the system is very disgusting. I feel like they're not doing their jobs. I feel like kids, they're in danger. Angola is not the way. That's not the way. That's not what we want these kids to see. I think we need to invest in service and support rehabilitation for all youth.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Oh, this mom talks with her son regularly and says that she's told him to keep the faith.

Parent: In this difficult time, I'm telling my son to keep his head down. I just tell him like, "You got to have faith of a mustard seed. You got to keep faith and trust in God and just pray every night." He has people fighting for him. I'm going to continue to fight and be a voice for my kid and others because it's not just him there.

Melissa Harris-Perry: She wants other mothers to join in the fight and she's not giving up hope for her son's freedom.

Parent: I would like all mothers to know that they need to stand up and fight for their kids and see what's going on in these facilities because these kids are not being treated fair. I don't know. I just hope someday he'll be free. He'll get out of there soon, and that's my faith.

Melissa Harris-Perry: We just want to say thank you to this mom for sharing her son's story and her own with us. Now, in her ruling, Judge Shelly Dick acknowledged the distress that the transfer would cause to children, writing, "The court is mindful that the specter of the prison surroundings alone will likely cause psychological trauma and harm." While she also wrote that, "The prospect of putting a teenager to bed at night in a locked cell behind razor wire surrounded by swamps at Angola is disturbing," but, "some of the children at OJJ's care are so traumatized and emotionally and psychologically disturbed that OJJ is virtually unable to provide a secure care environment. While locking children in cells at night at Angola is untenable, the threat of harm these youngsters present to themselves and others is intolerable. The untenable must yield to the intolerable."

We reached out to the Louisiana Office of Juvenile Justice and received a response from Deputy Secretary William Summers. It reads in part, "This is not an ideal nor permanent solution to the recent safety issues experienced by our youth, staff, and communities, but it will allow us to begin to improve our care. The ruling affords us the opportunity to place youth in an upgraded building that will allow youth and staff to focus on treatment and rehabilitation." You can read the OJJ's full statement on our website at thetakeaway.org.

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