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Melissa Harris-Perry: It's The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. Thanks for spending some time with us. We're heading back to Jackson, Mississippi. It's been 11 days since the city announced that the water treatment system had failed. For much of that time, residents have had no water pressure and no clean drinking water. As of Monday, full water pressure has been restored, but--

Newscaster: A boil water notice remains in effect in Jackson, Mississippi despite water pressure being restored to most buildings in the area. Officials say the water is still not safe to drink.

Melissa Harris-Perry: The water crisis did not begin just 11 days ago. A boil water notice has been in effect for the city since late July.

Aisha Nyandoro: The reality is that even though folks are tired, unfortunately, this is a community of individuals who are used to being resilient. I don't like to use that word. I don't think that people should have to be resilient.

Melissa Harris-Perry: That's Aisha Nyandoro. We heard from her last week. She's the CEO of the Jackson-based nonprofit Springboard To Opportunities. Aisha pointed out that the years of uncertainty around the city's water supply are taking a toll on residents.

Aisha Nyandoro: You have no agency or ability to even plan, so how are you supposed to continue to live on the edge of tethering with the reality that you can't even make the decisions necessary in order to ensure that you and your family are safe?

Melissa Harris-Perry: Even with the residents of Jackson, Mississippi, finally able to flush toilets and with most schools thankfully reopened, the people of Jackson continue to have questions about what and who bears responsibility for dysfunctional infrastructure.

Aisha Nyandoro: A lot of folks are pissed, rightfully so, questioning how did this happened and the lack of transparency that they feel is coming from some of the political leadership.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Let's ask for some of that transparency. We're going to talk now with Chokwe Lumumba. He's the mayor of Jackson, Mississippi. Mayor Lumumba, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

Chokwe Lumumba: Thank you for having me, Melissa, and good to speak with you again.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Absolutely. Now, let me just start with a check-in. How are the people of Jackson, of the city that you love and serve, how are they doing right now?

Chokwe Lumumba: Well, circumstances have improved, but they're not as we would have them to be. As you reported, the water pressure has been restored for all residents, but there are investigatory testing. There is investigatory testing taking place right now, in order to get some preliminary results, before the official test of about 120 sites across the city takes place.

That is the process that has to be underway for two consecutive days of clear tests before the boil water notice can be lifted. It still becomes difficult in terms of the inconvenience of boiling water for the various needs in which you have, whether it's brushing your teeth, whether it's drinking the water and so it's just more of an interruption in people's lives. This is certainly something we want to get past.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Dealing with such basic level infrastructure question, can you do any of the other work that needs to be done in the city and does the city of Jackson alone have either the responsibility or the resources to address all of these very technical issues?

Chokwe Lumumba: Well, it has been a baptism by fire, one in which-- This has been a challenge that most cities or most communities would take for granted, that this is infrastructure that they could depend on. That simply hasn't been so in the city of Jackson for some time. This hasn't been a challenge of my administration. This has been a challenge that the city of Jackson and its residents have been grappling with for the better part of three decades.

I moved to Jackson in 1988. I distinctly remember in 1989, a winter storm that debilitated our system at that time and left us without water for weeks, if not a month or more. Over the course of the years, in which I've lived in Jackson, I simply can't even recall the number of times that we have seen this challenge and so we've been crying out, at least since our administration, and to be fair, previous administrations have been crying out for the support to deal with this.

We're talking about a challenge that has been estimated potentially in a billion dollars range in order to deal with, so it's far beyond the city's capacity to deal with it. We have to realize that there's responsibility and there is a need for the importance of this to be felt not only on the municipal level but on the state and federal level as well.

When the state came to my office the beginning of last week, following the flood that we were experiencing, and said that they were going to bring different agencies, MEMA, for instance, and the Department of Health in order to support the work, I welcomed them with open arms because we've been talking about the need for support. We've been talking about the need to invest in the system in our legislative requests, in letters that I've written to the governor, in engineered plans that we've provided. This has to be a path forward in which we understand that without this, not only is it a cycle of humiliation that our residents go under, but it threatens Mississippi in its entirety.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Mr. Mayor, I feel like as you're talking about this need to work with the state, I'm wondering about for so many residents of Jackson who have felt that this is not just a matter of resources, but of neglect, and perhaps particularly neglect at the state level, how do you ask residents to trust that working with the state will lead to something different this time? How are you, in your engagement with state leaders, finding a space to trust enough to work together?

Chokwe Lumumba: Well, it is a day-by-day, forming relationship in which we have to proceed with cautious optimism, but at the same time, there are insecurities not only for me but for our residents. We have to understand that while we have them at the table, and are in need of them being at the table, that we have to less frequently take our punches or our jabs for what we felt we have lacked over the years and make certain that we're leaning into a relationship that creates a promising future, that creates sustainability, that creates dependability and equity within our water treatment process.

Furthermore, it's not only the state. We are going to need federal resources because the reality is, is that because of 30 years of neglect, it is even beyond the state's capacity alone to fund the changes that are necessary and so that is why it has been critical that our federal partners be there with us as well. Now, there are a number of concerns moving forward that have to be addressed. One, there is a difference between needing resources and needing a takeover of the water treatment facility.

What we have discovered, what the state officials who have been at the water treatment facility now going on two weeks, some of those officials have shared with me, now having been on the ground, that they have a greater amount of respect for those men and women who work at the water treatment facility. What we have learned, ultimately, is that without sufficient funding, the water treatment facility itself is just not as loyal to the residents of Jackson as the good men and women who operate each day.

Melissa Harris-Perry: One of the things that the Biden administration has certainly emphasized in terms of successes has been this infrastructure funding. Is that something that Jackson has not seen?

Chokwe Lumumba: Well, having spoken with the EPA administrator just as recently as yesterday, we've learned that, first and foremost, the portal that makes those funds, a lot of the competitive funds available to cities, doesn't open until October. Of course, we still are waiting that opportunity. One of the challenges that we see now and that we're concerned with and quite honestly, have always been concerned with historically in Jackson, Mississippi, if no other place, is getting money from the federal intent to serve cities like Jackson, that has to go through the conduit of the state and make it into our hands.

Our contention would be, historically, that there isn't a great amount of equity in that. That's why forming this relationship, that's why discussions like the one we are having is so pivotal that the attention stays there. My fear is that we've been here before where we've had challenges with our water pressure. We've had challenges with boil water notices and we've worked and have accomplished in the past to lift those but once the national attention or even the international attention fades and goes away, what has happened in the past is that the resolve, in order to meet this challenge goes away as well.

This is something that we have to continue to lift up that we can't allow to die down. We should not walk away from this, until we can look the residents of Jackson in their face and say, with absolute certainty, that we believe that this is a system that is dependable, this is a system that can serve them. That we believe that they are worthy of an equitable water treatment facility.

Melissa Harris-Perry: What are some of the tools moving forward to ensure that the residents have a voice in the decision-making on water management?

Mayor Chokwe Lumumba: Well, I think that they have to be a part of the conversation going forward. One thing that we fundamentally believe in, is that two minutes on a city council microphone during a city council meeting does not equal community participation. We commonly host things like people's assemblies to give opportunity for the residents to inform us of what they're seeing on the ground and hold us accountable. We think that that is a necessary part of the process.

We also need state actors and state leaders to submit to that same level of information sharing and responsibility. Over the coming days, what we will find is that there won't only be a conversation about how the system needs to be repaired in the short term and long term, but there will be discussions over how it is operated going forward. One thing that we have concluded because Jackson has certainly the most complex and difficult water treatment facility to run within the state of Mississippi, and having had experts from all over the country come.

We now have come to the conclusion that it quite possibly could have one of the most complicated water treatment facilities in the nation. Simply because it's the only water treatment facility that we have discovered within the same facility footprint that has both a conventional system operation and a membrane system operation. Surface water systems require what they call class A operators.

It is important to add that Jackson is one of two cities in the entire state that requires that level of certification, which means that the bench is not that deep for those people who have that certification. We end up having a national search and very competitive process to bring those people in. That being the case, we've looked at the potential of a third-party operations and maintenance agreement, that is where we would contract out some of the support and staff augmentation that's necessary. That is different than a privatization.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Mr. Mayor, hold for me for just one moment, we're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back. This is The Takeaway.

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We're still talking with the mayor of Jackson, Mississippi Chokwe Lumumba. We're talking about the ongoing crisis in Jackson, Mississippi, around water. I want to follow along on what you're saying here. It's useful, and I'm assuming that that part of what you're responding to here is that nearly a decade ago, Jackson contracted with Siemens for about a $90 million upgrade, had some issues around those exorbitant water bills for some. Others not receiving bills at all, and then, ultimately, reaching a nearly $90 about $89.8 million settlement two years ago in 2020. I'm assuming that is part of this history that you are seeking not to repeat going forward?

Mayor Chokwe Lumumba: Absolutely. That is one of the measures that then my administration took on. Having seen harm immediately from that contract, from that agreement with the city that preceded my administration, we thought it was necessary to sue and recoup for our residents, but $90 million seems like a lot. When your enterprise was hemorrhaging, when we were out of compliance with our bond covenants, which required that we have certain money in accounts and an escrow in order to deal with those payments.

Then our bond insurance company was threatening the city that if we were continuing to be out of compliance, then it would have made our bonds callable. Which means that all of our creditors could have called on the city in order to pay up for the debt that we owed them to the tune of more than $300 million all at once. Which would have and completely crippled the city left us insolvent and made us unable to operate the enterprise or functionally operate many of the services that we have across the city. That money, a good portion of it went to getting us into compliance.

Also, standing up an operation by which we could change the meters. We are in the process of doing a complete overhaul of our water metering and billing system. There is the installation of meters going into each residence, the expectation is that installation process will be completed by March of 2023. The harm is still happening, the harm is still occurred where residents have had stranded bills, some not receiving bills over the years. The bill may be more manageable for people who have set budgets, who have budgets that they operate within those margins each month.

When you don't receive a bill for more than a year, those things that you could have managed month by month, and now become an incredible mountain to climb. Yet, at the same time, our state constitution, state law doesn't allow us to forgive those fields. It becomes harmful to the residents, of course, and even becomes harmful to the city because of the revenue we're not collecting.

The old adage is if you owe the bank $1,000 then you have a problem. If you owe the bank a million dollars, then not only you but the bank has a problem, and that has been where we have been as a city. Not only the decades of lack of investment in the system, but missteps on the city's behalf, historically, as well have made a difficult circumstance impossible.

Melissa Harris-Perry: The final question for you, because in so many ways, water, and just that capacity to do something as simple as flush the toilet, turn on the tap, drink some water, wash your dishes, feed your chickens in the backyard, whatever it is that you want to do with your water are so foundational to our ability to live together as a people. You live in Jackson, you have family that you're raising in Jackson, how can the people of Jackson, Mississippi trust, when will they be able to trust that this basic resource necessary for life, that when they turn on that tap that it's safe, that they can drink it, that they can pay their children in it? What is the plan for rebuilding the infrastructure of trust?

Mayor Chokwe Lumumba: Well, what my residents I'm now aware of and what we commit to is that their administration won't turn away until we can say with certainty that this issue is resolved. The optimism is that we have more people at the table than ever before. We will mount the pressure necessary to be able to look them in the face and say that this isn't a matter of weeks or months. To some extent, it may not even be a matter of a year, but we are going to fight for a new water treatment facility.

One that is functional, one that is up to date, one that is automated, and one that does not have all of the trauma, and quite honestly, that hasn't had the challenge of operating correctly from its very creation. That's what our push is going to be. That is what we're lifting up each and every day. That is what I am committed to, and so that is our guarantee to our residents.

Yes, in the short term, we have been able to create more stability within the system, having the benefit of experts coming from around the country through a mutual aid agreement, which is a part of the rural water association. We've had technicians come from Georgia, and we've had professionals come from Florida and Tennessee and Alabama, and so we're grateful for their support. We know they won't be with us forever, and so we have to push for the resources to make sure that we have a complete fix of this problem.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Mayor of Jackson, Mississippi, Mayor Chokwe Lumumba, thank you so much for joining us, and promise that you will come back and give us an update on how your residents are doing and how the infrastructure is doing in a few months.

Mayor Chokwe Lumumba: Thank you very much.

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