Tanzina Vega: The battle for a federal minimum wage increases heating up in Washington as part of his coronavirus relief package. President Joe Biden has included a measure to raise the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour by the year 2025, from the current rate of $7.25. According to a new report from the congressional budget office, Biden's proposal would boost the incomes of 17 million workers and lift close to a million people out of poverty, but the CBO also estimates that 1.4 million workers could lose their jobs under the plan.

So far, the proposal does not appear to have bipartisan support some Republicans and centrist Democrats like Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia have come out against raising the minimum wage. While several states, including Florida and California, have already laid the groundwork for their own $15 minimum wage. I'm Tanzina Vega and the debate over a $15 minimum wage is where we start today on the takeaway. David Cooper is a senior analyst with the economic policy Institute and he joins me now, David, welcome to the show.

David Cooper: Great to be here. Thanks.

Tanzina Vega: David, why are we still arguing about $15 an hour minimum wage?

David: Well, we're still arguing about it because we haven't gotten there yet, unfortunately, we've been stuck with a federal minimum wage of only $7.25 for over a decade now. The last time the federal minimum wage was increased was 2009, that's actually the longest period in history that we've gone without Congress raising the federal minimum wage. Advocates have been calling for $50, I think since 2010 and even though a lot of states have taken action, the federal government is still dragging its feet and we still have a federal minimum wage that remains unchanged.

Tanzina: Now, David I'm speaking to you from New York where here we do have some minimum wage increases to $15 an hour that have been implemented, but also let's be honest, living in New York City on $15 an hour is practically impossible, but I can't imagine $15 an hour is a livable wage and in many parts of the country, not just New York.

David: Yes, that's absolutely right. The challenge is that what it would actually take for folks to be able to achieve a modest, but adequate standard of living in basically anywhere in the country is so far away from where the current federal minimum wage is. We have to try and make up that ground and $15 is the number that's been put forward for a long time. It's the benchmark now for what minimum wage proposals should target.

I think there's urgency right now to try and get the federal minimum wage raised to $15, but you're absolutely right that in a lot of places, that's not going to be enough and once the federal minimum wage gets to $15, there's nothing that keeps states or cities from going higher. I think that it's very possible that you could see calls to raise New York's minimum wage beyond at some point in the next few years, simply for the reason that you've identified, that cost of living, there are a lot higher than they are in a lot of other places.

Tanzina: We know that Joe Biden has put this federal minimum wage increase as part of his pandemic relief package, which is not the same as legislation, why that choice?

David: Well, I think part of it is just a recognition of the urgency that this is something that's long overdue. As I said, it's been over a decade since we raised the federal minimum wage $7.25 is just not a livable wage anywhere in the country right now, but the other reason why I think it makes sense is that raising the minimum wage to $15 is going to affect a large portion of the workers that have really been hit hardest by this pandemic. I'm talking about folks who work at restaurants, retail shops, grocery store workers, childcare workers, nursing facility workers. These are the jobs that we now call essential.

These folks actually make up by our estimation, by the economic policy institutes analysis, more than half of the workforce that would get a raise from this increase. It's fairly well-targeted at boosting incomes for folks who've really suffered the most in this pandemic.

Tanzina: There are members of Congress that are not in favor of this. Some of them say it will cost jobs though the number of jobs it will cost is significantly fewer jobs than the number of people that this potentially could help. Why are folks in Congress still against this? Really why are they against it?

David: Well, I think that at least on the Republican side, there's a lot of ideological opposition to this, the sense that the government shouldn't be telling anyone what they should have to pay their workers. On the other side, I think that there's perhaps some hesitancy because of this potential jobs impact, but I think that really, that hesitancy, that concern is a little bit misplaced because this idea that raising the minimum wage is going to destroy jobs is this straw man that's been put forward for decades, anytime any minimum wage increase is proposed anywhere.

It's a question that's been studied to death in the economics literature and we've had a lot of experience over the last 20 years as states have raised their minimum wages above the federal minimum wage to analyze this question. Really the best research we have now tends to show that raising the minimum wage has little if any impact on jobs.

Now, I admit that there's still some debate about this in academic journals, but I think a fair reading of the economics consensus on this at this point is that if there is an effect on jobs, it's so small that we really have trouble measuring it. I think that folks are concerned about potential effects on business. The fact that this is going to force businesses to make some adjustments to how they do things.

Obviously, right now is a challenging time for a lot of businesses because of the pandemic, but the hope is that once we get the pandemic under control, raising the minimum wage is going to put a lot of money in the pockets of folks who are going to go out and spend those dollars right away. That actually would set us up for a stronger recovery because folks will be ready and have the funds to go out and spend to get back out shopping again.

Tanzina: David, there's something that still doesn't square for me here and we hear Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia says he's against this plan, but when I look at data from West Virginia center on budget and policy, it shows that West Virginia has the sixth-highest poverty rate in the country and that was even before the pandemic. This is data that was released September 17, 2020, from the West Virginia Center on Budget and Policy. When you come from a state where the poverty level is that entrenched, how can you be against raising the minimum wage? Isn't the point of raising the minimum wage to help people get out of poverty?

David: I can't speak for Joe Manchin on this, I think that--

Tanzina: Let me clear it, I'm using Manchin as an example of people who may be against this policy whose states also have high rates of poverty.

David: I don't understand the logic either. We know that raising the minimum wage is going to disproportionately help the working poor, but again, by EPI's analysis, about 60% of all people who are working, who are currently in poverty, would get a raise from this proposal. That's going to lift a lot of folks above the poverty line.

The truth is though that there are a lot of folks in poverty who are not working and we have to find other ways to help them raising the minimum wage is not a panacea for eliminating poverty, but it is a tool that would help. I agree that I think it's foolish to not raise the minimum wage when we know it would do a lot of good for those folks.

Tanzina: What do we know about the public support for a federal minimum wage increase? I imagine that many folks, if you said to them, "Hey, do you want to raise?" The answer would be, "Yes."

David: There is overwhelming support for raising the federal minimum wage. Every poll I've seen has shown not only overwhelming support but bi-partisan support as well. A majority of Republicans among the voting electorate are supportive of raising the minimum wage. The support levels change a bit, depending upon how you word the question and what level you target, but overwhelmingly folks are supportive of higher minimum wages. It's really just in Congress and in state capitals in some places where there seems to be opposition among Republicans.

Tanzina: Let's talk a little bit about the states that are starting to lay the groundwork here, Florida and California have both started to lay the groundwork for their own $15 minimum wage. Are you seeing any positive signs there as far as a template or a strategy that could be implemented at the federal level?

David: Yes, Florida is really an interesting case. Voters in Florida passed a statewide minimum wage increase to $15 an hour this past November at the ballot. At the same time that the state voted for Donald Trump, voters there 60%, more than 60% of voters there elected to raise their state minimum wage to $15.

That is a confirmation to me that this is something that has support among the Republican base and so it's not just California and Florida. There's actually seven states plus D.C. that have passed $15 minimum wages at the state level. None of them other than D.C. are at $15 yet, but they're on their way there. There's about 40% of the US workforce that's in these states that are on their way to $15.

There's a lot of places, a lot of people who are already starting to see benefits from this policy change, my hope is that that will continue to motivate action at the federal level because you're going to have a lot of representatives and senators from places where their folks have already achieved a $15 minimum wage and the representatives from other states are going to be wondering why folks in their states are being left behind.

Tanzina: President Biden, however, has acknowledged that there will be challenges in attempting to make this federal minimum wage increase a part of his Coronavirus relief package. He recently told CBS's Norah O'Donnell and I'm quoting here. President Biden, "I put it in, but I don't think it's going to survive." That's President Biden talking about the proposal to increase the minimum wage. Well, if he put it in and he doesn't think it's going to survive, what next?

David: That's a great question. I think that there's going to continue to be pressure among advocates and other states to try and raise minimum wages either at the federal or the state level. The truth is any time voters are given the option to pass this, they choose to raise the minimum wage. This is true, as I said, both in blue states and red states, I mentioned Florida, Arkansas, Missouri, a handful of other red states, all of which have a ballot measure capacity and have the ability to put this question directly to voters.

Anytime it's put the voters, they vote to raise the minimum wage. Again, it's really this question of whether voters and advocates are able to motivate broader bipartisan support in Congress. That being said, it's still possible that we could see this make it through reconciliation. It's still possible that there'll be able to include it in the relief measure. Again, it's unclear whether some senators like Senator Manchin will get on board, but I don't think that this is a lost cause just yet. I think there's still opportunity to get this done in the current moment.

Tanzina: At the federal level, in fact, at the federal level, it's not able to get done, David. It almost feels like it will be punted back to the states as many things have been to figure out, is that right?

David: Yes, I think that's right. I don't think states are going to stop, even if it is passed at the federal level. As we mentioned at the start, I think that cost of living in a lot of places are higher. $50 is not going to be adequate in a lot of places. I think we're going to continue to see states pushing even higher even if there is action at the federal level.

Tanzina: Well, we're going to have to wait and see what happens with that. David Cooper is a senior analyst with the Economic Policy Institute. David, thanks so much for joining us.

David: Thanks for having me.

Tanzina: Low-wage workers have been some of the loudest voices calling for minimum wage increases both locally and nationwide and as a result, a number of states have already approved ballot measures to raise wages. Terrence Wise is a department manager at a McDonald's in Kansas City and a national leader for Fight For 15, an organized labor movement. Terrence, thanks for being with me.

Terrence Wise: Thank you for having me.

Tanzina: Terrence, you've worked in fast food since you were a teenager. Tell us what it's been like to get by on minimum wage?

Terrence: Being in the food industry and just a low-wage worker, in general, for the past two decades, to sum it up, my mom told me you work hard, be a good law-abiding citizen, and everything will take care of itself. That's the pathway to American dream. Me, I've worked doubly hard, sometimes two and three jobs and despite the fact that I've worked hard for decades in fast food in that McDonald's, my life has been on the decline. My family has been homeless.

I've raised three girls here in Kansas City, Missouri, and even though I work full-time and my fiancé is a home health care worker who works full-time, we've been homeless, there've been nights, we've struggled to keep food on the table and we've just not had a good quality of life. This is despite the fact that we work full-time and most folks just don't comprehend that in the richest nation on earth working full-time and happen to live in poverty and in those conditions and it doesn't have to be that way.

Tanzina: Terrence, I agree. It doesn't have to be that way. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the fact that voters in the state of Missouri, where you are, did pass a ballot measure in 2018 to raise the state's minimum wage to $12 an hour by 2023, $12 an hour, is that enough?

Terrence: Definitely, not. When you plug in our zip code here in Kansas City, in the Midwest, the middle of the country, not New York, not LA, but here in Kansas City, a living wage in my zip code for just a single-family, two parents, single-child household is $22 an hour. That's here in Kansas City, Missouri, according to MIT. $15 is not enough $12 is definitely not going to cut it, but we got to start moving in the right direction.

Tanzina: You've heard that President Biden wants to add a minimum wage increase to the Coronavirus relief package that he wants to pass, but that is still not a mandate about that. What are your thoughts on that adding this to the coronavirus relief package and then seeing what happens down?

David: Listening in earlier, even hearing his own words President Biden. $15 may not being able to survive, he put it in not being able to survive that's very disheartening. Workers have been organizing, mobilizing. We turned out in record numbers last November to elect leaders. We don't care what side of the aisle that are going to support $15 and support working families.

We've done the hard work. Workers have been on strike. We've been arrested, I've been arrested, we've made our voices heard and we don't care if you like Biden, Trump, any Republican. This is not that kind of issue. We know that the working Americans on both sides of the aisle all across the country want $15. We want $15 on our check. We were very disappointed to hear that talk and now is not the time to turn back.

Now it's the time to be strong and do the work of the people. That's why we elect you. This is the easy part, get $15 done. I'm not an expert in Senate procedure, but we know the Senate has used the rules to pass trillion-dollar tax cuts for corporations and they should be able to use those rules-- It says we need 50 votes. They need to get these 50 votes through the reconciliation process and get $15 on folks' paycheck.

Tanzina: Terrence, I wonder you mentioned the fact that low-wage workers came out and organized and got people to get to the polls, that is political power that can also be used as political pressure, do you expect to keep your pressure on either local lawmakers or state lawmakers or even federal lawmakers to make sure that these issues are continuing to be held up to the light?

Terrence: Definitely. First and foremost, our message even starting eight years ago was to our employers, to McDonald's, folks who don't have to wait on legislation or anyone to vote. They can put $15 on our check today, and we've seen many corporations and companies move in that direction and that's where we need to really focus that on. Our employers, the people that sign our paychecks, but we know that it's folks we elect in the office as well, that dictate our everyday living conditions as well.

Not only do we have to keep putting the pressure on our employers, we got to put the pressure on folks we put in office to make this happen. I've been quiet. I haven't been an organizing guy my entire life, but I know that when we come together and unite we get things done. $15 an hour 10 years ago you'd be laughed out of the room. President Obama, we loved him so much, but he couldn't even put forth a $15 an hour effort without the work we've done. I think that should be recognized.

Tanzina: Speaking of that, I'm wondering you continue to work at McDonald's and be a labor organizer that can be somewhat a risky proposition. Are you feeling like your employer supports you in this effort?

Terrence: When you look at our country, in general, we have the bloodiest labor history out of any country on the face of the planet. When we look at all movements in our country, whether it was the fight for women to get the right to vote, the fight to end slavery, those came with great risk, but we got things done. The only way we win in this country is when we organize and come together and take big bold risks.

You know what I mean? We got to keep doing what we've got to do because if we don't, my kids will be harmed. It's already that way. We look outside the day here in Kansas City, it's under zero degrees and just to think about last week, the sheriff knocked on my door with an eviction notice. My family is just one mishap away from being out in these conditions. The issues are dire, people, let's be honest, will die if we don't get these measures in place and start taking care of the working class in this country.

Tanzina: Terrence, you are speaking I think on behalf of many, many Americans who are struggling right now. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us about this really important issue. Terrence Wise is a department manager at a McDonald's in Kansas City and a national leader for the Fight For 15. Terrence, Thank you.

Terrence: Thank you.

[music]

Tanzina: We've been talking about the national debate over raising the minimum wage and now it's your turn and we've asked you, what are your thoughts about a $15 an hour minimum wage?

Martin: My name is Martin from Randolph, Massachusetts. Do I favor raising the federal minimum wage? Reluctantly so under the current condition. I don't really like telling employers what they can pay, but it seems clear that people who are working should be making enough to live on. What I support as a better measure is universal basic income. That way everyone is insured of enough to live on.

Shelley: Obviously, if a worker has a full-time job, they should be able to pay their bills. Living expenses continue to outpace earnings and it's cruel. My name's Shelley and I'm calling from [unintelligible 00:20:11]

Jeff: My name is Jeff, I'm calling from San Carlos, California in the Bay area. I'm calling because I support returning the minimum wage to $15 into $2 to $3 annual increments, so that the economy can adapt to it.

Speaker 4: No. I don't support a $15 minimum wage because isn't enough unless you add on some universal basic income. The fight For 15 movement has been around for almost 10 years now. We should be fighting for $24 at this point. The minimum wage must be a living wage and you simply cannot live off a $15 an hour in this country.

Speaker 5: Regarding a federal minimum wage of $15 an hour, it won't affect my family, but I support it. $15 an hour in one area of the country though may not translate to another area of the country, so I don't know if or how they're going to address that.

Micah: This is Micah from Kentucky. I do support the federal minimum wage being $15 an hour. Here's why. I think we can either let folks earn it and feel good about earning a living or just keep giving them assistance by the government. I would much rather allow people to feel good about themselves and feel accomplished when they come home and be able to bring a paycheck home that supports their family. I think it would be a great mental breakthrough for America.

Speaker 7: If you make a minimum wage $15 an hour, you can chance that my business will end up going under and plenty of other businesses like ours. There are plenty of jobs out there that are meant for high school or college students to do versus somebody will spare time, but they're not meant to make your living. We're one of them and I know a lot of other business owners, we can't afford to pay that much.

Speaker 8: I think this is absolutely something that should be done. The main reason is I don't see how anyone can live on less than $15 per hour. Currently, people working at Walmart and other corporate jobs where they're earning less than $15 per hour, they qualify for federal subsidies such as food stamps. That is just insane that we're allowing corporations to be subsidized federally while also giving them these huge tax breaks to be employers. I run a small business and pay my employees $17 to $25 per hour. I don't know how anyone could get by on less period.

Tanzina: Keep your thoughts coming on this. Is there any other story record, a voice memo on your phone and email it to takeawaycallers@gmail.com and we just might play it on the air or give us a call at 877-869-8253.

Copyright © 2020 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.