Tanzina Vega: That's the sound of Indian protesters clashing with police on January 29th in New Delhi. The protesters are supporting farmers who have been speaking out for months against the Indian government for passing a series of laws that would deregulate the agricultural industry in the country.

Satjeet Kaur: They bring in corporate interests and corporate profits and allow for an unregulated access for them.

Tanzina Vega: That's Satjeet Kaur, the executive director for the Sikh Coalition, a Sikh civil rights organization in the United States. Many of the protesters in India have been Sikhs, and Sikhs around the world have shown support for the movement.

Satjeet Kaur: They will effectively worsen already very hard conditions for farmers, and so we're not talking about a small population of people that this affects. We're talking about a massive population.

Tanzina: The Indian government has responded by firing teargas canisters, beating protesters, and even shutting off the internet for a period of time.

Satjeet Kaur: When they were met with these violent and repressive tactics, and finally made it to the outskirts of Delhi, they decided that they were going to stay there until their voices were heard.

Tanzina Vega: The escalating protests in India also represent another geopolitical hurdle for the Biden-Harris administration. Joanna Slater is here to talk about this. She is the India bureau chief for the Washington Post. Joanna, thanks so much for being with me.

Joanna Slater: Thank you for having me.

Tanzina: Tell us what you've been seeing on the ground in India with the protests these past few days. Have they been escalating?

Joanna Slater: What we've seen is a response by the government to violent clashes that happened on January 26th. Since then, the government has taken fresh steps to prevent any of these protesters from entering the national capital. They've put up fresh barricades, laid barbwire and even put spikes in the ground to stop vehicles, but there have not been any clashes as such in recent days.

Tanzina: How large is the protest movement and is it growing?

Joanna Slater: It's large. There have been tens of thousands of protesting farmers camped out on the outskirts of Delhi blocking three major entry points to the city for more than two months. It is growing particularly, as I mentioned after these violent clashes that took place on January 26th, you actually saw a fresh influx of farmers from surrounding areas to add their support to the movement.

Tanzina: What do we know about the percentage of the population that is made up of farmers in India right now? How large is that population?

Joanna Slater: Well, a majority of Indians still live in rural areas, so their livelihood is directly or indirectly still connected to agriculture. That's more than 600 million people. Not all of them are farmers, not all of them work directly in agriculture, but certainly they are connected to the farm economy.

Tanzina: Tell us what the living and working conditions are like generally for farmers in India.

Joanna Slater: Farming in India can be a very tough life as you might imagine, the majority of Indian farmers are small land holders, so it can be very difficult to make a good living off such small plots of land. In the case of the farmers who are protesting, they tend to come from areas around Delhi, from the states of Punjab, Haryana, and Uttar Pradesh. What they're particularly concerned about is that the new laws will mean the end of guaranteed prices for rice and wheat, which is a system that has really been the bedrock of a certain degree of prosperity in those areas for decades and a certain degree of security in fact for these farmers.

Tanzina: Joanna, what exactly were the three laws that were passed by the Indian government that farmers are responding to?

Joanna Slater: These laws were passed in September, and they contain major changes to agricultural policy. The main thrust of the laws is to deregulate agriculture and make it easier for people to buy and sell anywhere they want. Now, some farmers say these laws are an existential threat. They say it will make it easier for large corporations to exploit farmers in contracts, and again, they're worried that they will essentially put them at the mercy of market forces to their detriment.

Tanzina: What is behind the Indian government's decision to pass these laws?

Joanna Slater: The government says that these laws are necessary to spur investment in the sector and to liberalize it. Generally, the government says that the old way of doing things in farming has led to some unsustainable practices. For example, it means that more people are planting crops that require a huge amount of water than they should be and it's also basically resulted in inefficiencies in farming that needed to change.

Tanzina: We've seen that there have been clashes, but I think part of this conversation and part of why it's beginning to get more attention on the international stage is because of the response by Modi's government to the protests. Can you give us a sense of how violent the crackdown has been since this started?

Joanna Slater: The reaction to the clashes in Delhi has been swift. The government shut down mobile internet at the protest sites and in some neighboring districts, both to quell the demonstrations and to tamp down on communication with the outside world. Two journalists were arrested. There were slew of police complaints against the farmer leaders, a lot of disturbing legal actions taken against politicians and journalists, but there has not been a violent crackdown on farmers since January 26th.

Tanzina: What's prevented it from escalating?

Joanna Slater: Well, as of now, it's still very tense. It's very tense, you have tens of thousands of people still camped out at these three places. You have a very large police presence. You have barricading at these places that looks kind of more like an international border than a city in the heart of India. The potential for clashes for something to happen is very much there. There was one incident a couple of days ago where a crowd came to one of the sites and started throwing stones and trying to burn down some of the farmer tents. You can see that there are these kind of incidents that could easily escalate into something more very quickly.

Tanzina: What does this tell us about the support in India for Prime Minister Modi?

Joanna Slater: Well, at the moment, the prime minister is very popular here. He remains very popular here, but this is a major challenge for him. It is a durable and organized protest movement. The farmers and the government have had numerous rounds of talks, and they have failed to reach any kind of compromise. The government offered to withdraw the farm laws for a year and a half, and the farmers said, "no," their demand is the farm laws have to be repealed.

I think that's because there's a total deficit of trust between the farmers and the government right now. It's worth noting, this is the second major protest movement that the Modi government has dealt with in a year. Last year, there were also nationwide protests over a new citizenship law that critics say discriminates against Muslims. It's a challenge for the Modi government, but for now, it does not appear to be translating into a real dent in support.

Tanzina: Well, let's talk about, we have had a change in administration here in the United States. Trump and Modi appear to have a relatively good relationship. There was a visit from Prime Minister Modi to the United States while President Trump was in office. What do you expect to see under the Biden-Harris administration towards Prime Minister Modi?

Joanna Slater: You're absolutely right, Modi and Trump got along very well. They had an unforgettable rally here in India last year, but strangely, I think this is one relationship where we probably will get more continuity than change even with the new administration. India and the United States are both worried about China, and they've been deepening security cooperation for years, regardless of which party the president belongs to, so I don't expect major changes. One thing, however, we may certainly see more of is, I would expect a little more frank and open discussion of American concerns when it comes to the direction that India's democracy is heading. Trump administration officials say they raised issues such as the government's treatment of minorities, especially Muslims, behind closed doors, but I think it's likely we'll see more discussion of these questions in public. Again, it will probably be framed as an honest discussion among friends. India and the US are both really important to each other right now for strategic reasons, and I think that will override everything else.

Tanzina: Joanna, the strategic reasons being?

Joanna Slater: India is very concerned about Chinese aggression in the region, and especially on India's border. China and India just had their deadliest clash in more than 50 years back in June. For the United States, which is also seeking in its way to manage or contain a rising China, really needs a strong India as one of the linchpins of that strategy; India, Japan, and Australia traditionally US allies, but India is just crucial to that strategy.

Tanzina: Joining us later is the India bureau chief for the Washington Post. Joanna, thanks so much for joining us.

Joanna Slater: Thank you for having me.

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