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Melissa Harris-Perry: It's The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. If you can't get enough of The Real Housewives, RuPaul's Drag Race, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, or if you're someone who just wants to sound like you know all about these cultural touchstones and more, then chances are you're familiar with--

Matt Rogers: Ding dong, Las Culturistas' calling.

Bowen Yang: Ding dong, Las Culturistas' calling.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Comedians Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang have been hosting the podcast Las Culturistas since 2016. On the show, they pick apart all the pieces of culture they love, and as you can probably tell, they don't take themselves too seriously while doing it.

Matt Rogers: Bow, it's our 301st episode, a new era.

Bowen Yang: Can you believe? I didn't think we would make it to five.

Matt Rogers: Well, mama, as Shania Twain, [sings You're Still The One by Shania Twain].

Looks like we made it

Look how far we've come, my baby

Melissa Harris-Perry: You might also know Yang from Saturday Night Live. In the spring, Matt Rogers is poised to have his own breakout moments in front of the camera. He's co-starring with Yang in Hulu's upcoming film Fire Island, and Rogers can also be seen in the new Showtime series, I Love That for You. The series stars Vanessa Bayer as a woman who lies about having cancer in order to keep her job at a QVC-like network. Rogers co-stars as Darcy, the senior associate to the head of the network played by Jenifer Lewis.

Jennifer Lewis: And Joanna, please don't dress like that.

Joanna: Oh, like what?

Jennifer Lewis: Like a little [unintelligible 00:01:37].

Matt Rogers: Basically, we don't want you to wear anything with like French writing on it, or like an avocado with a face or a hedgehog or like a top hat or like that.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Matt Rogers, thank you for joining us here on The Takeaway.

Matt Rogers: Thank you for having me. Melissa Harris-Perry, unreal. This is very cool.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Oh, man. I feel like, wait a minute. I totally need like a TikTok channel called Melissa Harris-Perry Unreal.

[laughter]

Melissa Harris-Perry: When I steal that later don't be mad. [laughs]

Matt Rogers: Honestly, it's yours, please. This is huge for me to be talking to you. I'm happy to help with any TikTok explosion you may have from here on out.

Melissa Harris-Perry: [laughs] All right. I want to talk about Darcy. That's your character in I Love That for You. Would you assess him as being a little, I don't know, harsh?

Matt Rogers: You know what? Here's the thing about Darcy. Darcy works in a toxic work environment and what happens to you when that's true is you yourself, I think, adopt a lot of the characteristics that you see working in your superiors. He works for Patricia Cochran who's played by Jenifer Lewis, extremely huge icon to me in my life. I still have to wrap my head around the fact that I'm around her all the time, but she runs things a certain way and she plays her employees like pawns. Honestly, I think that she believes it creates better work on-air at the Special Value Network.

I think when you're surrounded by so much toxicity, it just becomes a part of what you do. I don't think he has a bad heart. I just think he is code-switching and trying to be who he thinks is going to be an effective person in this particular work environment. You see what happens when someone who makes their entire life their job when that person starts to feel devalued, and they can't even stand by their own behavior. It's actually really interesting to play this person who walks around like they're the Emily Blunt in Devil Wears Prada, but really wants to be that effortless and flawless and cruel, but is not actually.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I feel like we must be mind-melding here because the very next thing I was going to say was, yes, but in Devil Wears Prada and in some of the-- I don't know, I guess, it's the X Gen to millennial version of the world. The whole idea was that you would only like that one likable character that would show up out of a toxic work environment. It would be as though the hero or shero was always the one who could rise above. I'm wondering if it's a part of the insight of the moment in which we now live that provides us the possibility of seeing the ways that toxicity creates toxicity.

Matt Rogers: Yes, I think that's actually something that's really smart in the show. Vanessa Bayer and Jeremy Beiler and Jessi Klein, they've created actually a protagonist in Joanna who the whole crux of the show is that morally she does something that on paper, if you read about it in the news today, you'd be like, "Okay, put this woman in jail." She lied about having cancer to keep her job, and that is something, like I said, on paper you'd be like, "No way," but you understand her motivations and where she's coming from and you don't co-sign with what she does, but you have a deeper understanding of why she may have felt pushed to that place.

I think that's a theme that runs through all of the characters. When you first meet them, of course, they feel stuck. You have the antagonist other on-camera talent who is very self-possessed and you have what I would refer to as the stereotype that it seems I'm playing, which is sort of the [beep] gay assistant. Then I think the series goes on, you see just how everyone is actually presenting one thing to the world, and when the doors are closed behind them they are something else. I think in a series you can really explore what makes a character dynamic, whereas in a film like Devil Wears Prada we're really on the side of Anne Hathaway because we have two hours with her.

This is a series where we have eight episodes and, knocking wood, hopefully, more to explore the psyche of someone like Joanna who's our protagonist and also everyone else. Because the fact is people are not cut and dry. What I really like about the show is that exploration of when the stakes are really high and someone takes themselves really seriously, what happens when their value is called into question and they've needed to be challenged on whether or not this person they've presented to the world is working and is someone that they can stand by being.

Melissa Harris-Perry: That experience of being at your core, someone who identifies with your work, perhaps more than any other thing that leads with that in your identity, and then suddenly finding it challenged or stripped away. I think so many people experience that with the quarantine of the pandemic, even if you were still working your job, you were working in such a different environment, and I think it feels to me like a lot of us had to ask that question. Wait, wait, wait, who am I if I am not this thing that I do all day at work?

Matt Rogers: Right. I'm a very goal-oriented, success-oriented person, and when the pandemic happened I didn't want to be sitting there actually looking at myself and peeling back the layers emotionally, but here we are, and yes I am in therapy as of the pandemic. The good things did happen in terms of emotional growth because I think we were all asked to actually stop for a second and look at who we were. The fact is in I Love That for You we are telling a story about a work environment where we're all told it's the most important thing in the world, and all of a sudden those things are called into question.

It's a really interesting examination, especially when you take into account into the world of home shopping. It's so funny you bring up the pandemic because that's also some-- retail therapy was huge for me during the pandemic.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Listen. [laughs]

Matt Rogers: Yes, oh, please. The [inaudible 00:08:02] retail therapy is it works and that's why, or at least it works for a moment, which I think speaks to our show and this metaphor of shopping to fill a hole. You know what I mean? It's like when we have something coming in the mail, we're looking forward to something and we are going to get that serotonin burst when we get it. I think all the characters in our show actually have deep emotional holes that they need filling, and so this environment of the home shopping network where it's constantly being told, "You know what you need? This. It's going to make you feel better in X and Y ways."

It's that transient that chasing of the thing that's going to make me feel better, and that thing that's going to, when I step out into the world, make everyone say, "Oh, I understand better who that person is because I see them in this or doing this." It's a really interesting show about self-perception when it's all taken into account. I'm really happy to be a part of it as like a clown from basements in New York City who was doing screaming sketch comedy for years. It's like, "Oh, cool. I get to be a part of this smart comedic piece? That's going to work for me."

Melissa Harris-Perry: Well, first of all, I love that for you.

[laughter]

Matt Rogers: What is that?

Melissa Harris-Perry: There's that, but also not just that, but you're doing some other things. You are also co-starring in the upcoming Fire Island. Now, you've totally sold me on why the iteration of a series gives us potentially more than a film, but talk to me about this film and what it represents for you and for your friends? Y'all are all doing this together.

Matt Rogers: Yes, it's really wild. Fire Island is an adaptation of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, and it's set in the Fire Island Pines over a week in the summer where a group of best friends who are the stand-in for the Bennett family all experience a week together on Fire Island. If anyone out there has ever been to the Fire Island Pines, that it's a week, or however long you spend there that seems to, in terms of how time works, it doesn't exactly apply.

It seems like time goes away. It's almost like you get sucked into this vacation vortex when you're in Fire Island. It's really an interesting mapping the Pride and Prejudice onto the Fire Island Pines experience because there is so much going on there with wanting to be desired, wanting to be wanted. The concept of a sisterhood, competition amongst a family, in this case, a group of friends. My friend Joel Kim Booster who stars in the film also wrote the movie and adapted Pride and Prejudice to this to this environment.

He's such a thoughtful, intuitive, funny person and so is his script. It was directed by the amazing Andrew Ahn. He's got such an incredible eye for detail and such a sympathetic director that I think what we have here is an adaptation of Pride and Prejudice that is really fun and is going to make for a very fun movie for queer audiences now in the year of our Lord 2022 but also, I can say, it's a fantastic adaptation of a classic. I'm describing it as equal parts slutty and soulful, [laughs] so I think that'll attract a wide audience, if not, whatever, I tried my best.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Yes, particularly at that intersection. Yes, okay, I'm for that.

Matt Rogers: It can be achieved and there's something that happens to when you go on vacation, and you turn off certain filters in your brain. You really see what happens when characters are like, "All right, this is my week to go for it, and I'm going to let my inhibitions drop." It's just a really funny, smart, and sweet movie that I get to do with Joel Kim Booster and my true dear, other half of my heart, Bowen Yang, who is my best friend, has been over for over 10 years. I'm so proud of their performances and the entire ensemble. I think it's going to be a cool one.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Talk to me about the queer rom-com, and it's still so unexplored or at least under-explored, but I'm wondering if you have any favorites in this still relatively nascent genre?

Matt Rogers: You know what's funny, I think that romantic comedies actually, they do something different to queer people I think of my generation and up. Because whenever we were watching romantic comedies growing up, I remember watching all my favorites are Julia Roberts and Sandra Bullock and the ones of the '90s, I loved My Best Friend's Wedding and I like The Proposal with Sandra Bullock. The thing about it is you're never watching yourself do it when you're a queer person. I would consider myself a romantic when I'm watching them because I'm so enjoying watching the romance come together and fall into place.

The thing is when you're a queer person, and you're coming up in a media landscape where it's not mirrored back to you ever seeing yourself have that big kiss at the end of the movie or ever seeing yourself get told that you're an object of desire in that way that, it feels like, who's so good at receiving adoration is Sandra Bullock the way her eyes just water up and, she gets told and finally, she realizes that she is worthy of love. We're sitting there and it's not even in the movie does this happen for us. [chuckles] Sandra Bullock could barely believe in this movie like, "I'm in it for me at all."

In this recent moment where, we have Fire Island and we have Bros coming out, Billy Eichners' Bros coming out later in the year. We have the television series looking and you see in certain films and television series as of late, at least maybe the B story or secondary story, will be a queer subplot where you get to see a queer person win. I think it's it's really cool, but I can't say that I have a favorite image genre yet because I don't want to pick out a two or three. I'm going to wait till we have a Julia Roberts-sized oeuvre and then I'm going to get back on The Takeaway and say my favorite one.

For right now, I'm going to say I feel really hopeful that we're going to be mirroring back to a new generation, a sense of romance that we can look forward to, hopefully.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Fair point. You don't have to pick among two or three, we'll wait till we've got a bigger choice set.

Matt Rogers: Well, I pick Fire Island. [laughs]

Melissa Harris-Perry: There you go. That's a good one. [laughs]

Matt Rogers: Trust me in this, I was crying when I finished watching it because, I won't spoil anything, but obviously Pride and Prejudice end a certain way so fans of the novel will understand what they can look forward to. Just seeing that image that I had never seen before and just the love and care with which Andrew Ahn shot a moment of romance between two men, specifically of two queer Asian men, is something that moved me. I think I know for a fact is going to change things for kids watching it because I think that was the most difficult thing of being a young, closeted, confused person is, for me, it was not mirrored.

There was not a happy life modeled back to me by any role models or any actors or actresses in films that I was watching and so just that is so meaningful, and I think that's what moves me so much about it. It could just be some music cue, and I'm just basic, but you know.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Well, I was going to say, when you were like you don't want to spoil anything. I was like, "Well, if you can spoil the end of Pride and Prejudice, y'all have done something entirely different but okay, I got you on the--"

Matt Rogers: Well, at least they know, I read books, you know what I mean?

[laughter]

Matt Rogers: It's important on MHB. If I come on your show, it's like they should know I read books, or at least I'll do a good job pretending. I refuse to look dumb in front of you. [laughs]

Melissa Harris-Perry: All right, so on that point, though, let's talk about high and low culture because as you talk about the incredible podcast that you do with your longtime dear friend, Bowen Yang, talk to me about high and low culture. Why do we love The Real Housewives of Atlanta so very much, even though we know better?

Matt Rogers: You know what we love The Real Housewives of Atlanta so much is because they're funny. Everyone understands what it means to live a human experience and have the serotonin bump of just seeing a group of friends tear each other up with love and sometimes with not so much love, and I think that's something in Fire Island too that people are really going like because seeing a sense of community and watching a group of friends that have actual chemistry on screen. To answer your question about high low culture, I genuinely think-- This was funny during the pandemic, what I got really into again, Survivor.

I was sitting here, and it was the early days of the pandemic. I was like, "Why am I so obsessed with watching this right now?" I think in quarantine, it was like, "Well, I know that I'm watching Survivor and I know these people are in a worse situation than I am and I'm seeing them prevail," you know what I mean? I think for me, it's when I watch reality TV, or I watch Housewives where I watched whatever experience is being depicted on screen, I just want to go for a ride with whatever it is that's happening. I want to like escape the malaise or the stagnancy of my situation, and go on a ride.

When it comes to high and low culture, I think we're only told what's high and low culture, you know what I mean. We're only told that the opera is high culture and that the Kardashians are low culture. I think that those things, for better or worse, are melting away a little bit. Now that people can really decide for themselves, what culture they're going to allow themselves to seep in. We are years gone from the monoculture. There was one movie, everyone was watching, and it was Titanic, and there was one singer, everyone loved and it was Madonna. We are so far away from being expressly expected to stand, if you will, one particular thing in the culture.

I think now that people are finding their own pathways and their own cultural touchstones, it's interesting to see what's happening. On Las Culturistas, I just think it's funny to talk about Taylor Swift, and I don't know-- we would never talk about this, but Mozart in the same breath you know what I mean? [laughs] There's a sense of irony and comedy to it, in taking the non-serious, very serious, but also, I think it's an actual thing about the way that we all live is we need to be challenged, yes, by culture, but also sometimes we need to have fun.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I wonder as you go back to the point of around queer representation in rom-coms about what can sometimes feel like this pressure for communities and groups and voices and experiences that are underrepresented, that somehow whatever cultural products we're going to be represented in have to be high culture. It's the Harlem Renaissance argument that, "Oh, we have to demonstrate our capacity as black folks for philosophy and great literature," and at that time this idea that basically, Zora Neale Hurston was writing rom-com and therefore it was a trash novel that we shouldn't pay attention to.

There's actually some value. I think of the excitement, the enthusiasm, just the mirroring back as you were talking about that happens in seeing yourself even in something like an HGTV. Somebody's getting a--

Matt Rogers: Exactly.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Like your house renovated was like, "Oh, why was it the only [unintelligible 00:20:25] straight, white, rich couples that were getting the house renovated? What about us?"

Matt Rogers: I think that what people don't understand is when you don't see it, you don't believe that it can exist period. I think that the thing is like you mentioned an HGTV host, but if there is no Black HGTV host or there is no gay HGTV host and you are born into a society where you don't see that person in not just that role but so many roles, you psychologically start to really think, "Oh, those things must not be for me." I think when it comes to representation in media that is also why we are so hard on the media that represents us.

It can be frustrating as a creator who wants people to understand how difficult it is to get anything made from an underrepresented perspective, but also deeply understands the high bar that everyone has because I think we're all anxious that someone's going to mess up and then no one's going to get a chance again. That is a burden that I think, you obviously understand, and I think anyone from any non-white straight male perspective can have some understanding of which is that thing of I don't want to let people down and also I want them to know I'm trying my best and that I have the best intention.

I'm definitely aware of it whenever I am in a project that is all queer people and luckily, and I'm very proud to say that is most of the stuff that I've done. It does come with an expectation and it comes with extra eyes and it also comes with more perception and that is difficult. The good news is I get to do it surrounded by people that I genuinely love and trust and another element of this is when there is more there's less competition. I think that we're all the people of my generation and my peers are all super supportive of each other which I've seen more and more of it.

It feels like there's more lifting each other up at least in the artistic community when it comes to someone having a new project out. Twitter's always going to be Twitter. You know what I mean? Anyone that can get online and say anything nasty, they're going to do that as long as they have a computer or a phone or whatever it is, but it feels different on the inside of it and that is encouraging so that's where it's positive.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I feel like there's only one way to wrap this conversation and that's by asking you, is there a recent piece of culture that made you say culture is still for me?

Matt Rogers: Oh, my gosh, that is so funny. Who knows how much longer we're going to be able to do this and so while we are able to go do it I've been doing it, but I've been going to concerts again. I recently went to go see Haim, the band Haim, play at the Hollywood Bowl, and I just had such an amazing time watching live music. I was recently talking with a group of friends about what our first concerts were, and I'm very proud to say that mine was Mariah Carey and so--

Melissa Harris-Perry: New edition right here so I feel you. [laughs]

Matt Rogers: Oh, there we go. For me, it was the Mariah Carey Rainbow Tour. I remember it was iconic because she had her Heartbreaker video where she played two characters Mariah and Bianca.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Yes and they fought each other.

Matt Rogers: Yes, they did in the movie theater bathroom. I remember at the concert the whole bit was that Bianca was a foot and so "Mariah" would come out on a Bianca wig and the whole Madison Square Garden will be screaming, "Bianca, there she is. Get her Mariah." In seeing Haim the other day, just watching live music, and I just went back through all the concerts I've seen. I was like, "Wow, live music is something that I love so much and such a part of what I enjoy." so I bought a bunch of tickets for the rest of the year. I'm going to go see The Chicks, I'm going to go see Ben Platt, I'm going to go see Maren Morris.

I guess I'm just waiting any day now for Beyoncé to say anything about what she's got going on because I've seen her three times and it's been a transformative experience every time so I'm looking forward to another one. It feels like it's time.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Listen, it is a date, Matt, if you want. If B comes to the Garden, we got to go. [laughs]

Matt Rogers: There we go, I'll come in from LA where I am now. For MHP please, MHP and B and me, come on. [laughs]

Melissa Harris-Perry: Oh, my God, it would be all the things. [laughs]

Matt Rogers: Truly.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Matt Rogers is a comedian and actor currently starring in I Love That for You and the upcoming Fire Island. Catch him at the live music venue near you all summer long. [laughs]

Matt Rogers: Yes, I'll be there. [laughs] I'll be there watching whoever it is.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Thanks so much for joining us, Matt.

Matt Rogers: Thank you for having me.

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