Tanzina Vega: This is The Takeaway with Tanzina Vega.

Callie Crossley: I'm Callie Crossley, in for Tanzina Vega. 2020 has been book-ended by two significant achievements for Black animators. In February, the best animated short Oscar went to writer and co-director Matthew Cherry's Hair Love about a Black father learning how to style his daughter's hair. Last week, Pixar released Soul, it's first movie with a Black lead character and its first with a Black co-director, but the year has also been a tumultuous one for Black animators and voice actors.

Over the summer, a number of white voice actors stepped away from their roles as animated characters of color. Overall, Black creatives remain highly underrepresented in the animation field. Joining me now is Bruce W. Smith, creator of the upcoming, The Proud Family: Louder and Prouder, one of the co-directors of Hair Love and he was a supervising animator on The Princess and The Frog. Welcome, Bruce.

Bruce W. Smith: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Callie: Also with us, Ian Jones-Quartey, an animator and executive producer who's worked on shows including Adventure Time, Steven Universe and The Venture Brothers. Thanks for being here, Ian.

Ian Jones-Quartey: Hi, Callie.

Callie: And Angelique Perrin is a voice actor and co-host and producer of Café Mocha Radio on WBLS. Great to have you with us Angelique.

Angelique Perrin: Hey, Callie.

Callie: Bruce, you got your start as an animator in the 80s. Back then, were you working alongside many other Black animators?

Bruce: Ironically, the first studio I worked with, the door was answered by Phil Mendez. Phil Mendez was an African-American artist who actually had roots at Disney, was actually a New York artist and had started his own studio. For me, it was a summer job, coming out of Cal arts. That was the first face that I actually met as a professional artist in this business was Phil Mendez.

Callie: Ian, what was your initial experience in animation and were you often one of the only animators of color in the room?

Ian: Yes, I was. However, similar to Bruce, one of my first jobs, one of my supervisors was Kimson Albert, who's a Black man and we worked in New York on Venture Brothers and lots of other things. I am used to being one of the only black people in the room and in LA it happens more often.

Callie: Angelique, as a voice actor, have you done many auditions where the producers are explicitly looking for Black performers?

Angelique: I would say that for the Jedi I played in Star Wars, she had dark skin and is typically, when she's shown in the live action versions, she's typically a woman of color, a Black woman, perhaps African. That was expressly what George Lucas wanted a Black actress for that particular role of Adi Gallia, but typically if it doesn't say, then you play the character mainstream.

Callie: Bruce, you created The Proud Family in the early 2000s. What did you want to do on the show that hadn't previously been seen with an animated Black family?

Bruce: For me, when I did that show, there was nothing in that space that actually-- you're talking about the African-American sitcom, the animated sitcom, yet at that time you had The Simpsons and Family Guy, The Critic, you had all these TV shows that were pretty much animated sitcoms that were aimed at the mainstream. I wanted to create The Proud Family to fit in that same lane, an African-American sitcom that was aimed at the mainstream.

Callie: Ian, now that you've created and produced your own shows, do you have more of a say who gets hired?

Ian: Yes. On a show I co-executive produced, Steven Universe and the show I created myself, OK K.O.! Let's Be Heroes, I was able to have a lot of control over who was hired in terms of artists, but also voice actors. Yes.

Callie: Have you gotten pushback from executives when you try to hire people of color for your shows?

Ian: Absolutely. I think a lot of that, we'll probably talk about this more, but a lot of that comes from the fact that actors of color and women of Color especially, are underrepresented in the industry. The pushback we would often get was, "Well, why don't you go with this voice which we've heard before, we know, or has less risk to go with." I work in TV, so everything moves really fast and all of the producers above me really want to make sure that there's no risk going in. They don't want me to hire people they've never heard of before.

Callie: Following that, Angelique, are there specific skills that voice actors need to develop, because if they don't want to take a risk, I guess they assume you may not have these certain skills?

Angelique: Look, Callie, I have done tons of classes out here in Los Angeles. I mean, by trade I'm a radio personality, but I was a theater major. When I came to LA, I did tons of specific classes for animation. I remember getting booked for a pilot. It was a Will Smith cartoon that never took off. I walked out of the booth and the casting director looked at me, she said, "Why have I never heard of you before?" That's the problem. There's a huge disconnect between the talent out there and the people casting for the talent. They love the people that they know and for the people that they don't, who have had little, small, significant roles throughout their career, they don't think to reach out. There's a big problem.

Callie: Over the summer, several prominent white actors stepped away from their roles, voice and characters of color. What was your reaction?

Angelique: I applauded them and I had to write an opinion piece to the Hollywood reporter to respond because some of those roles I didn't even get to audition for. I've been doing this for 20 years. How do I not get to audition for a role that calls for a Black female character or mixed? I'm sorry, I don't want to-- multi-racial. So I was both horrified that so many were out there, white actors playing Black characters, but then also horrified that I didn't get the opportunity to play any of those roles because I wasn't offered an audition.

Callie: Ian, actors of color are also overlooked when it comes to voicing characters like Aliens or mystical creatures that don't have race in animated shows. Do producers need to be more imaginative when it comes to casting those roles?

Ian: Yes, absolutely. On the show I co-executive produced, Steven Universe, the main cast are almost all Aliens and we went to-- we ended up casting a majority women of color, and it was just because these were the voices that we hadn't heard before. I really would love people to be a little more open to finding those voices because for me, it's less about the idea of matching character's skin color to the actor, but actual economic justice. I want women of color and actors of color to get paid and get respect and have prominence within the industry.

Angelique: Amen.

Callie: Bruce, when you worked on 2009's The Princess and The Frog, which had Disney's first Black princess, but more than 10 years later, Pixar has its first Black lead character in Soul. Are you disappointed that it's taken so long to see more Black animated lead characters?

Bruce: Yes, absolutely. That's a whole generation almost passing by before anyone thinks of, "Hey, you know, let's take this film that we've got right now and recast the lead, and let an African-American enjoy and participate." That's just been the whole thing since I've been in this business. It's like, we love this business as African-American artists, but we want to participate. We want to be involved in all of the flights of fancy. I've worked on so many projects that did not involve me from an animation standpoint, but I had to put myself in the character.

Actually, it's helped me as an animator, it helped separate myself and my skill set from the crowd because of the things that I do as an African-American to put in the character. That still doesn't necessarily reflect the character that's actually on the screen as being a person of color. That's sort of been an issue with me for a long time.

Callie: Angelique, when voice actors of color are cast, it's often relatively big name actors who get the part. Are you hoping to see Hollywood move away from reliance on big names in order to give other voice actors like yourself a chance?

Angelique: I would love that, the jobs that I have auditioned for that were specifically Black female characters or male often went to Regina King, Sanaa Lathan, Nia long, but the thing that I can bring, I cannot bring what Regina King does, but what I can do is I could also play the grandma and I could also play role Rolo. I can do different things. I don't do what they do, but they don't do what I do. When you cast Sanaa Lathan, who's a fabulous, A-List, Black actress, you just get that and you don't get the levels that you're going to get with someone who does this the way I do and who relishes it.

Callie: What do you think animation studios need to do in order to make the animation industry more welcoming to animators of color and voice actors of color? And I'll start with you, Ian.

Ian: For me, and this just goes for everything, it's really just about being aware of what's going on. For instance, when I created my show, OK K.O.! Let's Be Heroes for cartoon network, I was only the second Black creator for the network and the first Black creator was André 3000. He got to come in the door completely different way than I did. I think that studios need to be aware that talent people of color, they're rare in this industry, but it doesn't mean we don't have the talent. They need to just be aware and cast their net a little wider. I really hope that that's going to happen more as we get more people being able to come to prominence using the internet and it's hopefully easier to find those people.

Callie: Bruce, what about you? What do you think?

Bruce: Oh man. I agree with Ian. I think it's really about opportunity. I think for us to have the opportunity will help paint and put the industry on course and on par in the foreseeable future, because listen, one thing you can't deny in life is that we, as Black people, we drive culture, we just do. Always, when you see our stories being told and when you drop us in movies, it makes those movies that much more interesting, because of the language that we bring, the swag that we bring, those are things that are necessary, those things that they look for. Moving forward, producers always have-- you should think about that.

Callie: Okay, Angelique, how do you weigh in?

Angelique: I weigh in like this. This is an easy work to be more inclusive. It's going to take a couple of extra steps for this to happen. It could be something simple as grabbing six of the best little drawers in whatever neighborhood, bringing them in and mentoring them for a year. It could be something that small, just mentoring aspiring animators, voice actors, or it could be a larger program where we go, "Hey, let's invest in the future of this industry," but we know that there's the talent out there, but the talent has to be given the opportunity and people need to be open to opening that door to allow other faces, other ideas and other types of creativity in.

Callie: Ian, this year you worked on a series of anti-racism shorts for Cartoon Network, is animation a good medium for addressing the serious issues or the kind we've been talking about?

Ian: Absolutely. I'll say it a million times, animation is uniquely positioned to be a medium that expresses and teaches empathetic skills and gets characters across. At the end of the day, animation, it's like a century-old magic trick. We're basically forcing your brain to look at these images, hear these sounds, hear these sound effects and believe that that's a real person and a real character. The reason why animation is so powerful is because that power comes from you, the viewer. You put all those things together in your brain and you create the character as well as us giving you the material to do so. Animation is incredibly powerful in that way and I hope more people pay attention.

Callie: Bruce, there has been some criticism that in both The Princess and the Frog, and Soul, the Black-lead characters spent a lot of the movies outside of their Black skin. What do you make of those critiques?

Bruce: It's an odd thing. I can't even account it to it being intentional or anything like that. It's just a weird phenomenon that I think that caught everyone's eye, because I can't explain it any more than that. I think The Princess and the Frog, that's just the story. No matter who was going to be cast in that role, they were going to turn into a frog, ultimately. Soul, I think it's simply told within the fiber of the story. Just makes sense to me. In Soul also, the character did not spend the whole movie as a soul.

We did see a good portion where he comes back, spoiler alert. I don't know, I think that that's an odd phenomenon. It just simply seems to add up for whatever reason. I can't explain the Spies Like Us. I think that that movie was where the character turned into a bird. It's just a weird phenomenon. I don't know if producers just in the back of their mind there's only so much Blackness they can take on the screen at one time. I don't know.

Callie: I had to ask the question because Black Twitter is not having it. People have added up the minutes, how long the princess was the princess and how long she was a frog and same thing with Soul now. They're very unhappy, just saying.

Bruce: [unintelligible 00:16:06]

Callie: Okay. What people are happy about, we mentioned that Hair Love won the best animated short Oscar back in February. What did that win mean to you since you were part of that?

Bruce: Yes, that was sensational. That was something that we all did not expect, to be honest with you. We were just out to really make a great movie. We thought that Matthew Cherry's, just the Genesis of the idea we thought was fantastic. I think it just caught the emotional heartstrings of a lot of artists in the business outside of just talent around town.

You saw it got crowdfunded, but it got crowdfunded by some pretty essential people in Hollywood. I think we knew that it was necessary. When the guys approached me to come on board, I knew it was a necessary project. I was doing something else at the time and I knew it was necessary. I knew I wanted to be involved just because of what it stood for.

Callie: Count me among the millions who wept many times over that little film, so just want to let you know it really struck a chord.

Bruce: I cried while making it.

Callie: Okay. There you go. I'm glad to know that. All right. I have a question for all of you and that is, are there any upcoming animated shows or movies from creators of color that you're excited for? Angelique, I'll start with you.

Angelique: Of course, I have to talk about hopefully season two of LeSean Thomas's Cannon Busters. I love LeSean. I describe him as this young brother from Queens who said, "I want to make my own cartoon." He went to Korea, learned the inner workings of how the art of animation is done and came back. I met him in Korea and I used to just send him voice work for his characters. He did a Kickstarter campaign, made some money for a pilot and Cannon Busters wound up on Netflix after years of hard work.

I'm looking forward to a second season of that as well as whatever he comes up with, because I think it's so important we continue to support the Black animation that's out there. We have to watch the shows. We can't just complain that there's not enough of it. When it shows up, we have to support it. That's part two of that discussion. Ian, I had no idea that Steven Universe was yours. I did get to audition for that though. I'm in the business. I had no idea, so press, get out there, get in front of people and let them know.

Callie: That's one way. Ian, I want to ask you the same question. Are there any upcoming animated shows or movies from creators of color that you're excited for?

Ian: Yes, I also think LeSean Thomas is amazing. A show I'm looking forward to actually was Everett Downing, who worked on Hair Love, is going to be doing a Netflix series called My Dad the Bounty Hunter, which looks really awesome. Then another show that I'll always give props to is a show on Cartoon Network, Craig of the Creek. It has white creators, but a large part of the writing and storyboarding staff are Black people and people of color. I'm really looking forward to more of those shows. It's a great show just about kids being kids and the main character is just like the kind of Black kid who I was when I was a kid and it's just really exciting to see that.

Callie: What kind of kid were you?

Ian: Oh, I was just similarly the kind of kid who was always trying to create things, draw stuff, have little adventures with my friends. I was constantly trying to rope my friends into making movies with me and stuff like that. It's fun to see that type of character on TV for other kids to have.

Callie: Finally, Bruce, to you, are there any upcoming animated shows or movies from creators of color that you're excited for?

Bruce: Oh, man, I agree with you, with the Everett Downing piece because, yes, Ev is my dude and I know he was really excited to get that shot at Netflix. Man, there's so-- Gosh, now you see a lot of opportunity being spread throughout. I know a lot of my friends have their head down in projects I can't mention right now.

Callie: You can mention it. We'd be happy to have the scoop.

[laughter]

Bruce: I can see the next 10 years as really the industry mining Black talent for projects that are Black that feel authentic. You mentioned Craig of the Creek. Once upon a time, if The Proud Family and Craig of the Creek were of the same era, one would cancel out the other, you know what I mean? But now we're in a space where we hope that we get to see many sides of Blackness from the shows that are grounded to the shows that lift off the ground and are full of Wimzie and being inclusive in areas that we just weren't allowed to play in for such a long time. That's what I look forward to.

This reminds me of a little bit of the blaxploitation era, where now Hollywood is really mining Black talent. We just hope that window stays open much longer than seven, eight years.

Callie: Bruce W. Smith is the creator of the upcoming The Proud Family: Louder and Prouder. Ian Jones-Quartey is the creator of OK K.O.! Let's Be Heroes and Angelique Perrin is a voice actor and co-host and producer of Café Mocha Radio on WBLS. Thank you all for speaking with me.

Ian: Thank you.

Angelique: Thank you.

Bruce: Thanks for having us.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.