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Melissa Harris-Perry: This is The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. What you're hearing is the unforgettable voice of Afro-Latina, Cubano and Salsero, Celia Cruz. She recorded the anti-racist song Bemba Colora in 1966. That along with her signature sound made her a beloved champion of so many Afro-Latinas in the diaspora. With the exception of Cruz, how many other Afro-Latinos can you name? How many in your children name? This is why, in part, representation matters. It matters so that people feel seen, heard, known. Many Afro-Latinos are taking up the call to make sure the next generation sees representations of themselves in one of the first places they experience images and stories. Children's books. I spoke with-

Sulma Arzu Brown: Sulma Arzu Brown, a proud Garifuna, Afro Latina woman author of Bad Hair Does Not Exist/Pelo Malo No Existe.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I asked Sulma to tell me more about the book Pelo Malo No Existe.

Sulma Arzu Brown: Pelo Malo No Existe was illustrated by my best friend, another Garifuna woman Afro Latina from Honduras. Her name is Isidra Sabio and together we just wanted to change this horrible colloquial term that described the thick-textured hair of many of our children, terms that we ourselves grew up hearing, which is pelo malo, which means bad hair. We believe that it was an opportunity for us to start offsetting the messages about our communities that are too often seen in the media. Even from the illustrations to the simple education such as alternate terms for hair so that no adult or child ever has to use the term pelo malo. Phrases and words like short, long, straight, curly, they're very simple to take on and eliminate the term bad hair.

Melissa Harris-Perry: That language of pelo malo and bad hair, but also have good hair, because even if you say good hair, it always presumes pelo malo is the alternate. I feel like this is so central to the experience of little Black girls, whether we are Afro Latina, or whether we are Black girls hailing from the diaspora, or little Black girls hailing from the US south. Why is hair so critical?

Sulma Arzu Brown: You know what? Hair can tell the story of who we are, it tells a beautiful story of where we come from, and our ancestors. Part of the process of colonialism is to try and erase what lives in us and actually grows through our scalp. You're absolutely right in saying that this book is not just for Latinos, it was literally written for the global Black diaspora so we can remember how to respect one another, and teach the world how to respect us as well. This book was also written for those that do not look like us, that are not Black in color or Nubian, and to get to understand the beauty of the Black experience.

The way we carry ourselves within our families, the way we give gifts to one another, the way grandma passes down a cupcake recipe to her granddaughter, all of this beauty is depicted in this book. Again, it's definitely about making sure that we are telling our stories from our perspectives and how we see each other and one another in hopes of the world giving themselves that opportunity to get to see us in the light that we have always been.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Sulma, tell me some of your story. Tell me about the intersections of Latin identity and Blackness where you live.

Sulma Arzu Brown: Well, right now I am in the in the Bronx, but I wasn't always here. I was born in Honduras and raised in a small Garifuna village and the Garifuna people represent about 5% of the people in Honduras. Our "Motherland," is actually Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, wherein the Garifuna people were created. We are a mixture of the Arawak Indians, the Caribs that were in the land, and actually slaves that came to the island of Saint Vincent because Saint Vincent was actually considered neutral territory between the French and the English.

The slaves, even from Africa, and from Barbados, would come in so that they would be free. The mixture of all of these people created a brand-new breed of people, which is the Garifuna people. Let me fast forward it years later on why I came to this country. My mom and dad actually ventured to this country before my brother and I did and the reason why my mom came here, because in Honduras, we are still today dealing with the same discriminatory tactics that we've dealt years ago. My mom came to this country because she was overlooked for a promotion because she was Black Garifuna and a woman.

Her boss literally told her, "You have family in the United States, I advise you to move over there, because there you will get the promotions that you deserve, based on your qualifications." She came here, graduated college, and so did my father. My brother and I both came six years later, and we are also successful college graduates, I promised myself that my children will never have to go through this. My life's journey is to create tools of empowerment and have these conversations to make sure that my mom's story does not repeat itself.

What will repeat itself is that strength that our ancestor placed in us for survival, which is the reason why the Garifuna people still to this day, speak our own language, because we were never enslaved. The slaves normally take on the language of the master. We have our own language, and because I was born in Honduras, and many Garifunas are in Guatemala, Belize, and Nicaragua, we identify as Afro Latinos, with the exception of our brothers and sisters in Belize because it is the only English colonized country.

Melissa Harris-Perry: As you expand the knowledge, the understanding, the consciousness of folks to even understand the global nature of Blackness, why does it matter for kids to see that in the books that they read as small people?

Sulma Arzu Brown: It matters, because I think that that's how we have survived through history, is telling our story, and reminding our children how strong they are, how important their contribution to the now is. In order for you to understand what that is, you must understand the family members, your ancestors that came before you, that have already made history, because there might be something inside of you. For example, if a child is hungry to be an entrepreneur and have her own business, like myself who is an entrepreneur, I'm wondering where is that coming from?

That's when I found out that my grandmother had the first supermarket in our small town of Santa Fe Colón, that's when I found out that my grandfather ran his own business as well. There's a history of community, there's a history of entrepreneurship. Understanding where that came from, you realize that, "Wow, I can breathe, I am not different. This has happened in my story before." It helps take them to a whole other level. When I wrote the book, Bad Hair Does Not Exist/Pelo Malo No Existe, I can literally mark the difference between my kids grades in school when they didn't know who they were and the power that lived inside of them versus when I wrote the book. They were able to breathe and say, "I can do this."

Not only were they able to breathe, but they became leaders in the space of anti-bullying. They started educating the young Benalla Latinas where they would whip their hair to the back and they will tell my daughter. "You can't do this with your hair. You can't whip it back like us." Lenny goes, "That's okay because I pat baby. I pat and this is how we do it." She started patting your curly afro. Ways of educating. It's just so powerful. She got a scholarship to an incredible high school because she didn't have to worry about who she was. The teachers knew that she will concentrate on her education because this is not a lost child trying to find herself which is why we have to continue to write our books now more than ever when our history is literally being erased.

I'm calling for more authors, more storytellers, more humans like ourselves to write your story. Our kids need it and it is important for not just our survival, but it is important because we have to thrive and we have to honor the sacrifices of our ancestors in the process.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Sulma Arzu Brown, author of Pelo Malo No Existe. Gracias. Thank you for joining The Takeaway.

Sulma Arzu Brown: [foreign language]

Melissa Harris-Perry: I also spoke with Charles Esperanza.

Charles Esperanza: I am the author illustrator of Boogie Boogie, Y'all.

Melissa Harris-Perry: And Yesenia Moises.

Yesenia Moises: Author, illustrator of Stella's Stellar Hair.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I asked Yesenia to tell me about her book and the story of Stella's Stellar Hair.

Yesenia Moises: Stella's Stellar Hair is a story about a young Black girl who goes on an interplanetary journey across the solar system to get help with her hair from her nine fabulous space aunties.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Afro Latina futurism?

Yesenia Moises: I guess you can say that, yes. That sounds pretty on the nose.

Melissa Harris-Perry: [laughs] In a children's book?

Yesenia Moises: Yes.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Give us just a little bit more on the plot. Who are these aunties and what is it that they are doing with Stella?

Yesenia Moises: Stella is looking for a new hairstyle because it's the day of the big star little gala, a very cool interplanetary party that's happening to celebrate the solar system. Her mom tries to do something, but she doesn't like it. She wants to have something really special for this big day. Her mom suggests that she go to see her aunties across the solar system and her aunts all live on the different planets. Each of the aunties has their own unique way of styling their hair that's actually based around the planet's atmospheres.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I asked Charles how his book Boogie Boogie, Y'all was not only a celebration of his hometown, the Bronx, but also of the diaspora.

Charles Esperanza: Boogie Boogie, Y'all is basically a love letter to the Bronx and graffiti art. Basically it came from me just wanting to explore more of my hometown and the culture that has come from that. I'm a teacher so a lot of my students didn't really understand where graffiti came from. One day I saw an amazing graffiti piece outside of a community center I teach and I took a picture of it and brought it into class and showed it to the students and they were just amazed by it. I told them, "What do you think of it?" They were like, "This is great. Where'd you find this? Is this in a museum or something?" I'm like, "No, it's right across the street from the community center."

Right then and there I realized that they maybe didn't take in as much as they should about their community and the art that's around them. That spawned the idea for Boogie Boogie, Y'all. Boogie Boogie, Y'all is basically a book that just inspires all its readers, kids, adults, anyone to just look at the art on the wall, take in everything around you and how great it is. It's also a rap song too. We have a great audio book out right now as well to go along with the book that I definitely recommend people partner with. [chuckles]

Melissa Harris-Perry: Now these two are doing the work to help the next generation of kids, but I wondered when they first saw representations of themselves in media.

Yesenia Moises: That experience came from watching Spider-Verse, Into the Spider-Verse, the movie that came out I believe in 2018 in December. I remember going to theaters and seeing that movie. It was the very first time that I'd seen someone who, similar to me, was Afro-Latino, but was able to speak Spanish in their home and it was just a very natural thing. I went to a panel at the Apple Store where Peter Ramsey, the co-director for it, was talking. He had mentioned that for the movie he'd made sure that in the times when Miles was speaking Spanish to his parents, that there were no subtitles because he felt like subtitles were very othering. It made you feel like, "This is like a really different language. This isn't normal."

I think that was the very first time where I saw that being someone who has darker skin and speaks Spanish was very normal. That was very comforting to me.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I got to say, it bothered me that 2018 was the first time Yesenia felt represented in media. I asked Charles about the gap and his normality and joyfulness not being reflected back to him.

Charles Esperanza: I first started pitching Boogie Boogie, Y'all maybe end of 2015, early 2016. At that point, there wasn't as much advocacy for Black and brown stories to be as celebrated as they are now. I definitely can see the difference right now, and it's really great. We're getting some amazing stories. It's going to take a lot more to see a lot more stories get out.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I have both Charles and Yesenia, they didn't have direct representation as kids. Where did they find spaces where they saw themselves?

Charles Esperanza: As a kid, I was obsessed with anime and I love the amazing colors that they used and everything in anime, it felt like it could be related to cartoons in America, but at the same time things were really, really different and off. I'd be like, "Whoa, what is this?" I related to that because a lot of the stuff that I liked was very weird. It wasn't Marvel comics, it wasn't Batman, Superman, it was this weird place. I feel like I really related to that. Also coming up watching Nickelodeon, Hey Arnold!, it took place in a city and I felt like a lot of the things that the characters in Hey Arnold! went through, I could relate to. Even though it was a white main character, I felt like there was a lot of diversity in that show at the time. Nickelodeon in general, I feel like had a good amount of diversity in the '90s.

Yesenia Moises: I did really enjoy the worlds that were brought to me by anime and how they told stories in which the characters grew over time as opposed to the more episodic stories that we see in American cartoons these days. Although these days, they have a little more flavor to them now than there was back when I was growing up. I just found it very fascinating, but also really, I guess, enriching. It made me feel seen to see characters that were going through things and they had their own issues they were working through. They had adventures that they were going on with friends. I really love the idea that friendship is power. That's something that we don't really get a lot, well back then, we didn't really get a lot in the American cartoons that we had here.

Things like Dexter's Laboratory or Powerpuff Girls, like they'd go on adventures, they have the flavor of the day monster where they'd beat up the bad guy, but we didn't really get to see them have internal dialogues about, "Well, what am I feeling right now, and how do I want to go about tackling this problem that's before me?" Things like that, I didn't really see very much of on American cartoons. I really enjoyed that aspect. I really enjoyed how just colorful their worlds were, how imaginative they could be. I think that sort of thing made me feel a lot more seen than the worlds that I was seeing on Cartoon Network or Kids WB.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Charles Esperanza and Yesenia Moises, thank you both for joining us here at The Takeaway.

Yesenia Moises: Thank you.

Charles Esperanza: Thank you so much Melissa.

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