[music]

Matt Katz: You're listening to The Takeaway. I'm Matt Katz from WNYC filling in this week for Tanzina Vega. Good to have you with us. In Texas, a statewide mask mandate is being lifted today and all businesses will be allowed to operate at full capacity. Governor Greg Abbott announced the rollbacks at a press conference last week.

Governor Greg Abbott: COVID has not suddenly disappeared. COVID still exists in Texas and the United States and across the globe, but it is clear from the recoveries, from the vaccinations, from the reduced hospitalizations, and from the safe practices that Texans are using, that state mandates are no longer needed.

Matt: The move has been criticized by president Joe Biden and CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky. They along with many other public health experts say that easing up restrictions now could pose a major setback to efforts to get COVID-19 under control. While Coronavirus cases have declined in Texas since their winter peak, the state is still seeing more than 5,000 new cases per day over the past two weeks. That's a 7% increase from the previous two-week period according to the New York Times.

Many Democratic officials in Texas have expressed their opposition to the governor's rollbacks, but their ability to enforce stricter public safety measures is relatively limited. Under the governor's order some restrictions can be put back in place if coronavirus hospitalizations rise above a certain level, but even in those cases, county judges are prohibited from jailing or fining people for refusing to wear masks. What do these rollbacks mean for Texans at the local level for more on that I'm joined by Plano, Texas Mayor Harry LaRosiliere. Welcome back to the takeaway mayor.

Mayor LaRosiliere: Thank you, Matt. Thank you for having me.

Matt: Oh, it's our pleasure. Were local leaders like yourself given any heads up before last week's big announcement that these rollbacks were coming or did they come as a surprise to you?

Mayor LaRosiliere: No, we saw the writing on the wall. We saw Texas open up to 75% a couple of weeks earlier and when there was announcement pending we figured one of two things and both happened it was 100% opening and then the lifting of the mass mandate. It really wasn't a real surprise that this occurred, at least not for me.

Matt: What does this mean in Plano? What COVID-19 related restrictions are you able to continue enforcing?

Mayor LaRosiliere: Really the state has prompted our local authority to put anything in place. Really what it means is that businesses will be open 100% and masks are not required. For me here in Plano, my message has been fairly consistent. This is about personal responsibility. It's about caring for yourself and then certainly caring for those around you, your loved ones and your neighbors and the people you don't know. That's the message we're continuing to drive home for our citizens. That for the safety of our community, we strongly encourage that we maintain all the practices that's gotten us to this point where we're so close to getting on the other side.

Matt: Are you expecting to see less mask wearing and less social distancing in Plano in the coming days now that this is going to affect?

Mayor LaRosiliere: I would think so. I think when you have mixed messages from policy makers, the confusion is the result and there's inconsistency and behavior. It would be nice if we were all on the same page. I think what's going to happen is that now businesses will be forced to make their decisions as to whether they're going to allow folks with or without mask and that can create conflict. I think that becomes a public problem because you're going to find disagreements as a result. Studies show that when there is a law in place compliance is significantly higher.

If we saw this play out, Matt, during the summer where we had a shutdown and frankly opening up too quickly led to a resurgence. We're so close. If you look at our community where 12% of our population in Collin County, where Plano resides just North of Dallas is vaccinated 12%. We have a ways to go and we're not that far away. I'm optimistic that things are moving in the right direction. We just need to give it a bit more time. I'm asking our citizens on that basis this is what we should do.

Matt: You said earlier that you're concerned about potential conflicts with business owners who might ask people to wear a mask even though they're not mandated to wear masks. What are business owners in the city saying about the rollbacks from the state right now.

Mayor LaRosiliere: By and large, the feedback has been-- Many businesses prefer to keep the mask ordinance, I think, for the safety of their employees and the patrons. The majority of citizens realize the seriousness of this pandemic and the fact that the social distancing and the measures we've taken has worked. It's a discomfort. We all have cabin fever. I'm tired of this thing on my face and I'll forget it and I'll go back into my car. It happens all the time. We're all at that point where the fatigue is there, but we also realize that in order for us to accomplish something of significance, we have to come together and feel the collective pain together.

Again we've gone from a position of love and compassion in our city. We don't have a hammer over your head and say, "You must do this." We said, "We need you to do this for your community." Our community by and large has responded, but I do suspect that with this lifting there's just going to be confusion. There's going to be some that already did not want to wear the mask will feel compelled not to. I saw a video just the other day at a Trader Joe, which is a supermarket locally where someone wanted to come in without a mask. The employee said no. It was on social media and it wasn't physical confrontation. It was a verbal one, but that was unnecessary. That's unnecessary and I suspect more of that will occur.

Matt: That's unnecessary and unsettling. When you were on the Takeaway back at the beginning of January, you were talking about Texas' vaccine rollout and I'm curious what the status of things you just said earlier that 12% in your county have gotten the shots, in terms of the rollout of the vaccines are things smoothing out a bit? Are people getting more access to the vaccine?

Mayor LaRosiliere: At the beginning it was clumsy. It was uncoordinated. There's nobody to blame for that Matt. The difficulty when dealing something of this scale is that you can plan as much as you want. Then things are going to happen that you didn't anticipate that frankly are out of your control, but you're responsible for that's really what it comes down to. We've worked through some of the logistics, supply chain issues that really weren't city-related, but we're the first point of contact for our citizens.

Something breaks down they call us, they don't call Texas. They don't call Austin. They don't call the governor. They call Plano City Council and myself and our city staff. It's smoothed out. Since, with the new administration, we've obviously seen an increase of numbers of vaccines. The predictability is better.

Back then when we spoke in January, we'd find out a day or so before how much dosage we'll get, and then we have to scramble to figure out where to administer it and organize it where now it's happening more several weeks in advance and there's a bit more predictability, we have a supersite or two opened up in our city and we're having coordination with our neighboring cities in Collin County. It's much better and there's a long way to go. We just simply need to be methodical about it and keep our head down every day and do the task at hand.

Matt: Nationwide and in Texas COVID-19 has had a disproportionate impact on Black and Latino communities and I wonder what's going on with the Black and Latino neighbors in Plano?

Mayor LaRosiliere: For us, it's really about information and providing access. We've heard about the digital divide that creates that chasm. Again, we make our city staff available to be conduits and we have non-profit organizations that we coordinate with locally to get messages out and we have a number of faith-based organizations in our communities that we connect with to provide information, push out the relevant information as to where to go and how to get your vaccine, and help folks get online. We do the best we can. Sometimes, again, when we talk about this crisis, it brings to light deficiencies in our community and I suspect when things-- When we get to the other side, we hope to address some of those issues, the structural issues that put some of our citizens in a disadvantage.

Matt: Later this hour, we're going to be speaking about the $1.9 trillion COVID relief package that's moving through Congress, do you know yet if there are any provisions in that package that will be particularly helpful for you guys in Plano?

Mayor LaRosiliere: Well, there's a component of that obvious, I think, in general, supporting those that are been deeply affected through COVID is a positive for any community. We were fortunate prior to COVID, we've had a real robust economy locally, we had unemployment rate at 3%. It went up to as much as 12% at the worst and now it's settled in at about 6%. Still, for our community twice as many people are out of work and so those stimulus funds will be well received.

For city though we have reduction in sales tax revenue, we're going to see significant property tax decrease in this upcoming year because property tax revenues show up a year later, we've had additional staff resources that we've had to put out for people-- Those not working, they got sick or those who can't work, needing equipment to work at home. The portion of that bill that's for cities I think will be well received, and it will go far towards us addressing some of the shortfalls that we anticipate coming up and revenue and expenditure that we've seen over the past year.

Matt: Very good and real quick before I let you go, can you tell me if things are flattening out in terms of COVID infections and hospitalizations in Plano?

Mayor LaRosiliere: Yes, this time last month, Matt, our was rolling average is about 84 positive cases a day. We're down to about 20 positive cases a day. We're moving in the right direction. We're almost there and I'm urging my citizens and anyone listening to just keep this up for a little longer. We'll see the other side and it'll be better for sure.

Matt: Mayor Harry LaRosiliere is the mayor of Plano, Texas. Mayor, thank you so much for coming on the Takeaway again, really appreciate it.

Mayor LaRosiliere: Thank you, Matt.

Matt: Texas is far from the only state rolling back restrictions related to COVID-19, Mississippi, Arizona, West Virginia and Connecticut have all eased restrictions in recent weeks, ending mask mandates and limits on indoor capacity. At the same time, the CDC has announced new guidelines for fully vaccinated people in the US, including safely socializing indoors with other vaccinated people or those at low risk for severe disease. We're going to talk about all of this and more with Dr. Saad Omer, Infectious Disease Epidemiologist and Director of the Yale Institute for Global Health. Dr. Omer, welcome to the show.

Dr. Saad Omer: My pleasure.

Matt: Let's start with the latest from the CDC about what fully vaccinated people can and can't do. What are the highlights from the new guidelines and was there anything in there that surprised you?

Dr. Omer: Actually no, there was nothing surprising there because it's evidence-based. These vaccines are highly protective against direct disease in all age groups, including the elderly. We have emerging evidence that they may reduce transmission as well, although that evidence is not rock solid. Therefore, it was only reasonable to say that now that you are vaccinated, you can do certain activities, you can participate in certain activities. All of the guidelines make sense and they're not surprising because they're based on evidence.

Matt: Was there a difference in the guidance, significant differences between public and private settings?

Dr. Omer: It's not going to be like a light switch that one fine morning everything is okay. It will be a dimmer switch, things will open up gradually and that's what you're seeing. Public activities where there are a lot of people present, especially indoors are much higher risk activities, even for vaccinated individuals than these small gatherings so that was the major difference.

Matt: What about traveling?

Dr. Omer: Well, yes, so the language is that it is being discouraged, but I do think there was time for them to have focused on it even now, but the hope is that they will come out with a more fine-tuned guidance and we are all talking about vaccinated people. For unvaccinated individuals, there is no reason to change that guidance at this point, but for vaccinated individuals, I think it warrants another look at current travel guidelines so that they can actually engage safely in some of those activities.

Matt: What's the purpose of the CDC issuing these updated guidelines, does it effectively give us a roadmap, a look at what the weeks and months ahead might mean, and might look like for the rest of us?

Dr. Omer: Yes, I think it does give an idea. The other thing is, look, public health recommendations are there for a reason, they're not asking everyone to sacrifice their relationships, their engagement, their activities, just for the sake of it. They are there to protect themselves and others. When there is reason to ease up on some of these guidelines and restrictions or involuntary restrictions in this case, then it is in line with the evidence and that's rational public health policy.

Matt: Are the guidelines also a way to encourage people to get vaccinated like, "Look, this is what awaits you if you get the shot"?

Dr. Omer: Yes, especially as more and more people get vaccinated, so here's the thing, it's not just the individual vaccination impact, but collective vaccination also impacts individual behavior and the things that we can do. If more and more people get vaccinated, you can do more and more activities safely. For example, if you're on a plane, and when everyone is vaccinated, or most people are vaccinated, your risk is substantially lower. Actually, we know that with travel, a big chunk of risk comes not from the plane itself, it comes from your interactions at the airport and the other parts of the travel. Those kinds of things help all of us go back to a lot of the activities that we were doing before this thing struck.

Matt: At the same time that these guidelines came out, we're also seeing some shifts on public health measures at the state level. As I mentioned, Texas is lifting pandemic-related restrictions, but there are countless states doing similar thing, are there differences, though, between the rollback of restrictions in places like Texas and Mississippi, compared with up in Connecticut?

Dr. Omer: Well, there are differences, but Connecticut has done a good job in terms of pandemic response in a lot of aspects, but in this case, I don't think it is time to lift restrictions, especially indoor dining restrictions. I know our restaurants are hurting, I know businesses are hurting, but we prolong the suffering, collective and individual and in terms of businesses themselves if we take actions a little too prematurely. I think we should have including not just in Texas and Mississippi, but including in Connecticut, we should have waited a few more weeks.

I think we will get there where it will be safer to engage in these kinds of activities, and by the way, I am of the view that you don't have to reach full herd immunity or that threshold to be able to ease up on some of these restrictions. I do believe that if you have vaccinated enough of the high-risk individuals or the highest risk individuals who are at the risk of dying and being hospitalized because this risk is this virus has disproportionate impact on certain groups, it impacts all of us. This is a pandemic nobody has zero risk, but it does impact some people more than the others.

As we start vaccinating those groups, we will get to a situation where even if the rates of infection are high, there is a bit of, if you will, decoupling with mortality and hospitalization and severe disease because you have already vaccinated the most vulnerable. In that situation, it is much safer to ease up on some of these requirements and we are getting there not just in Connecticut, but in the near future in Mississippi and Texas as well. Around that time, it will be much safer. With Connecticut, if I may it is even more nuanced because the state switched to a purely age-based strategy.

That means that while it in the early phases it did a really good job of protecting the most vulnerable above 75 long-term care facilities et cetera, as the age group goes down, people at the highest risk especially below 55. It is reasonable and actually preferable not to have an age-based approach only through 75. I think going down to 60, 55 is very reasonable. Not just 65 or 75 that some states are doing.

Beyond that what you do is that you are making people at the highest risk in those age groups, you're making them compete with the rest of the population, the rest of us who have relatively lower risk of dying and severe disease. Therefore, you are delaying that impact, that decoupling between infection and the benefit that comes by protecting the most vulnerable through vaccination. Then, in that situation, easing up too early has even more concerning consequences.

Matt: As these states ease up a bit on some of these public health measures, do we know how much involvement public health officials, experts like yourselves are involved in this? Is it politics that are playing a major role? Is it a mix of politics and public health advice that the state officials are using to try to come up with these new measures?

Dr. Omer: Look there is an interesting dynamic in various states and not just in the South there is this tendency to have "consultations with public health people" and then do whatever they want to do pretty much anyways. There's one thing to have consultation to say it more directly than to actually include that in decision-making. At the federal level, things have substantially changed, you can trace a line between public health recommendations-- Actually, starting with evidence, you can trace a line between the emerging evidence, public health recommendations, and then executive decisions.

It is not that clear in all states and it's not just Texas and Mississippi. There are other states including in the Northeast, where it's one thing, for lack of better framing, parade around public health professionals in press conferences. Then, actually have your decisions based on evidence-based recommendations. That's one thing. Having said that, I understand it's not just political. I think it's a sincerely held belief that they have to have other considerations. I'm not a politician I'm a scientist.

I don't have admitted the detailed understanding of all the nuances that come with an elected leaders pressures and all of that stuff. Setting that aside, there are other non-public health reasons to consider some of these actions. It is not just that they're doing it for any nefarious reasons. They're doing it by having other considerations then public health as part of decision-making. At least that's what it seems.

In this situation, sometimes the decisions are not best for public health, but we have evidence even from other fields that the best economic response and it's not even ambiguous now that the best economic response is the same as the best public health response. You can't have an outbreak that has a different economic response and then not have a direct control and sustainable control. That's an important word, not just a direct control but a sustainable control of the outbreak.

Matt: Dr. Saad Omer is an Infectious Disease Epidemiologist and Director of the Yale Institute for global health. Dr. Omer thanks so much for walking us through all of this. Appreciate it.

Dr. Omer: My pleasure.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.