JOHN HOCKENBERRY: Good Morning

 

MUSA IBRAHIM: Good Morning

 

HOCKENBERRY: We are getting reports and Ibrahim Dabbashi just spoke with us about how the people support a change of regime and how nobody is supporting Col. Gadhafi and how, in fact, the security forces behind him aren’t even the army; they are his own and his sons’ personal private security forces that are fighting civilians in Libya. Your response?

 

IBRAHIM: This is absolutely false, Moammar Gadhafi is the leader of this country, who came about 40 years ago and liberated Libya from the Americans, the British, the French and the Italians. He is loved by millions of Libyans, they rally behind him everyday. What we are faced with is not a peaceful protest for political change, we are faced with an armed rebellion led by al-Qaida affiliates, as your secretary of state herself confirmed yesterday when she spoke of the danger of al-Qaida getting hold of Libya and turning it into a giant Somalia only a half an hour away from Europe. The leader is very strong; the people of Libya are very strong. We are taking a step back from violence, because we don’t want to shed Libyan blood. We want strikes, social leaders to negotiate peace to come to the table and express their demands peacefully so we could take Libya forward. The people who sit in their flats and houses in New York and Geneva and London and talk about a change in Libya they have no legitimacy in Libya. They are calling for our kids to kill themselves in an armed conflict with the government so they could come and govern Libya

 

HOCKENBERRY: That is a fair point; certainly the secretary of state has no standing to speak for the people of Libya. If we were to take your logic, sir, al-Qaida controls the city of Benghazi. That’s quite a setback.

 

IBRAHIM: What is happening is the following: These bunch of al-Qaida affiliates, they are very highly trained individuals. They are I have to have you know in Libya we have released hundreds of ex al-Qaida leaders after they have repented from their wicked ways, but now we are rediscovering that we have been tricked and cheated. This program of negotiation with al-Qaida was applauded by the international community and we really believe that we succeeded in getting these people back to join the society. And yet they went back and they attacked police stations and army camps to take hold of weapons and they held the people of Benghazi and other cities hostage.

 

HOCKENBERRY: so the people of Benghazi who are forming tribal committees to take hold of Benghazi and civil life are actually secretly in fear of al-Qaida and doing their bidding

 

IBRAHIM: We have here in this moment in Libya... Journalists from around the world, they went around, they visited cities that are supposed to be occupied by al-Qaida. The al-Qaida presence is very limited and the army of Libya can easily take them down. What we are doing, John, is taking a step back to keep the country from descending into Chaos. Because al-Qaida loves chaos. You have just to remember Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq and remember the only link between them is chaos. They want the government to fight back, they want the Libyan army to hit them very hard so casualties will exist and people will be very scared.

 

HOCKENBERRY: But Musa Ibrahim, the Iraq example, it was the U.S. and the coalition that invaded Iraq not al-Qaida similarly in Afghanistan, what would you say to the one hundred and forty thousand people who have left Libya in fear for their lives claiming that it is Kaddafi that they fear.

 

IBRAHIM: Exactly John, if this was proof of what we were saying, if this was a peace movement toward political change supported by the Libyan people, then why are people leaving the country. People are leaving the country because they are scared for their lives, because there are gangs of armed individuals at decks and cities, airports, police stations, markets and they are killing people in the fleets. We have footage of this in a few hours time. I’m having a huge press conference.

 

HOCKENBERRY: Mr. Ibrahim before we go, Col. Gadhafi claims that people love him and that no one wants him to go. It’s hard to reconcile that with him using fighter jets to bomb his own people.

 

IBRAHIM: This is absolutely false, no one of the foreign journalist have been here in Libya for a week found any shred of evidence for any bombing of civilians.

 

HOCKENBERRY: John Simpson of the BBC who actually reported while a plane unloaded its bomb bay next to him.

IBRAHIM: There were a gang of terrorist holding arms and were attacking Al Braiga ports.

 

HOCKENBERRY: Since when do you use air forces against gangs of thugs?

M: John, we have invited fact finding missions from Europe, the States, Latin America, Africa and Asia. We say do not relay on media reports. John Simpson is not someone to be trusted with international matters. He has his own agenda. Why don’t diplomats, the UN, the NGOs of America, come and find the facts for themselves. Why are you rejecting coming into Libya. Come in your hundreds and if you find of any evidence of any massacre or bombardments of civilians, you can hold us responsible.

HOCKENBERRY: The UN Security council ruled unanimously against Libya over ht weekend. It’s not my impression that the Security Council does the bidding of al-Qaida when it makes its votes

 

IBRAHIM: This is very sad because the Security Council reached an agreement against Libya without any fact finding mission, relyi9ng completely on media reports. The lawyer that was supposed to defend the Libyan position was against the Libyan position. In any court of law, in any village in any continent in the world you cannot accuse someone of crime, sentence them without providing them with any means of defending themselves. Without investigating the crimes. The Security Council decision is illegal immoral and it’s based on fantasies

 

HOCKENBERRY: Listen to this voice of a Libyan citizen, is this a fact or is this a fantasy (Tape: Moammar Gadhafi has to go out right now and stop killing people. We need freedom, Libyan people. One solution, revolution.) That was broadcast around the world on CNN, what you make of that protester?

 

IBRAHIM: Oh come on John, in face of this single voice I can give you the voice of millions demanding the leader…by the way, the leader himself and we all in Libya believe that political change has to happen in Libya, but the difference is we want it to happen peacefully and gradually. You, our friends in America, you reach your democratic and open society after decades and decades of peaceful and violent change. We want to do our change in Libya peacefully, because we are a tribal society. If the central government falls, civil war might ensue and we would be in the position of Somalia which has been suffering form civil war for about eighteen years.

 

HOCKENBERRY: Napoleon famously said, after me the deluge... Are you saying Col. Gadhafi can’t step down? Wouldn’t he moving out of the way be the clearest path towards peace?

 

IBRAHIM: Col. Gadhafi is leading the country forward toward the written constitution, toward better freedoms of the press, better salaries, better housing for the people. If he disappears for any reason, we cannot guarantee what will happen to the people because of the tribal structure of Libya and because of al Qaida’s interest in the country because it’s very close to Europe.

 

HOCKENBERRY: Well we would be very happy to talk with him directly about that, can you get him for us?

 

IBRAHIM: Col. Gadhafi has been meeting with press around the world and you could request an interview with him and I’ll pass it on.

 

HOCKENBERRY: Consider it requested.

 

John Hockenberry: Good Morning

 

Musa Ibrahim: Good Morning.

 

JH: We are getting reports and Ibrahim Dabbashi just spoke with us about how the people support a change of regime and how nobody is supporting Col. Gadhafi and how, in fact, the security forces behind him aren’t even the army; they are his own and his sons’ personal private security forces that are fighting civilians in Libya. Your response?

 

MI: This is absolutely false, Moammar Gadhafi is the leader of this country, who came about 40 years ago and liberated Libya from the Americans, the British, the French and the Italians. He is loved by millions of Libyans, they rally behind him everyday. What we are faced with is not a peaceful protest for political change, we are faced with an armed rebellion led by al-Qaida affiliates, as your secretary of state herself confirmed yesterday when she spoke of the danger of al-Qaida getting hold of Libya and turning it into a giant Somalia only a half an hour away from Europe. The leader is very strong; the people of Libya are very strong. We are taking a step back from violence, because we don’t want to shed Libyan blood. We want strikes, social leaders to negotiate peace to come to the table and express their demands peacefully so we could take Libya forward. The people who sit in their flats and houses in New York and Geneva and London and talk about a change in Libya they have no legitimacy in Libya. They are calling for our kids to kill themselves in an armed conflict with the government so they could come and govern Libya.

 

JH: That is a fair point; certainly the secretary of state has no standing to speak for the people of Libya. If we were to take your logic, sir, al-Qaida controls the city of Benghazi. That’s quite a setback.

 

MI: What is happening is the following: These bunch of al-Qaida affiliates, they are very highly trained individuals. They are I have to have you know in Libya we have released hundreds of ex al-Qaida leaders after they have repented from their wicked ways, but now we are rediscovering that we have been tricked and cheated. This program of negotiation with al-Qaida was applauded by the international community and we really believe that we succeeded in getting these people back to join the society. And yet they went back and they attacked police stations and army camps to take hold of weapons and they held the people of Benghazi and other cities hostage.

 

JH: so the people of Benghazi who are forming tribal committees to take hold of Benghazi and civil life are actually secretly in fear of al-Qaida and doing their bidding

 

MI: We have here in this moment in Libya... Journalists from around the world, they went around, they visited cities that are supposed to be occupied by al-Qaida. The al-Qaida presence is very limited and the army of Libya can easily take them down. What we are doing, John, is taking a step back to keep the country from descending into Chaos. Because al-Qaida loves chaos. You have just to remember Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq and remember the only link between them is chaos. They want the government to fight back, they want the Libyan army to hit them very hard so casualties will exist and people will be very scared.

 

JH: But Musa Ibrahim, the Iraq example, it was the U.S. and the coalition that invaded Iraq not al-Qaida similarly in Afghanistan, what would you say to the one hundred and forty thousand people who have left Libya in fear for their lives claiming that it is Kaddafi that they fear.

 

M: Exactly John, if this was proof of what we were saying, if this was a peace movement toward political change supported by the Libyan people, then why are people leaving the country. People are leaving the country because they are scared for their lives, because there are gangs of armed individuals at decks and cities, airports, police stations, markets and they are killing people in the fleets. We have footage of this in a few hours time. I’m having a huge press conference.

 

JH: Mr. Ibrahim before we go, Col. Kaddafi claims that people love him and that no one wants him to go. It’s hard to reconcile that with him using fighter jets to bomb his own people.

 

MI: This is absolutely false, no one of the foreign journalist have been here in Libya for a week found any shred of evidence for any bombing of civilians.

 

JH: John Simpson of the BBC who actually reported while a plane unloaded its bomb bay next to him.

 

M: There were a gang of terrorist holding arms and were attacking Al Braiga ports.

 

JH: Since when do you use air forces against gangs of thugs?

 

M: John, we have invited fact finding missions from Europe, the States, Latin America, Africa and Asia. We say do not relay on media reports. John Simpson is not someone to be trusted with international matters. He has his own agenda. Why don’t diplomats, the UN, the NGOs of America, come and find the facts for themselves. Why are you rejecting coming into Libya. Come in your hundreds and if you find of any evidence of any massacre or bombardments of civilians, you can hold us responsible.

 

JH: The UN Security council ruled unanimously against Libya over ht weekend. It’s not my impression that the Security Council does the bidding of al-Qaida when it makes its votes

 

MI: This is very sad because the Security Council reached an agreement against Libya without any fact finding mission, relyi9ng completely on media reports. The lawyer that was supposed to defend the Libyan position was against the Libyan position. IN any court of law, in any village in any continent in the world you cannot accuse someone of crime, sentence them without providing them with any means of defending themselves. Without investigating the crimes. The Security Council decision is illegal immoral and it’s based on fantasies

 

JH: Listen to this voice of a Libyan citizen, is this a fact or is this a fantasy (Tape: Moammar Gadhafi has to go out right now and stop killing people. We need freedom, Libyan people. One solution, revolution.) That was broadcast around the world on CNN, what you make of that protester?

 

MI: Oh come on John, in face of this single voice I can give you the voice of millions demanding the leader…by the way, the leader himself and we all in Libya believe that political change has to happen in Libya, but the difference is we want it to happen peacefully and gradually. You, our friends in America, you reach your democratic and open society after decades and decades of peaceful and violent change. We want to do our change in Libya peacefully, because we are a tribal society. If the central government falls, civil war might ensue and we would be in the position of Somalia which has been suffering form civil war for about eighteen years.

 

JH: Napoleon famously said, after me the deluge... Are you saying Col. Gadhafi can’t step down? Wouldn’t he moving out of the way be the clearest path towards peace?

 

MI: Col. Gadhafi is leading the country forward toward the written constitution, toward better freedoms of the press, better salaries, better housing for the people. If he disappears for any reason, we cannot guarantee what will happen to the people because of the tribal structure of Libya and because of al Qaida’s interest in the country because it’s very close to Europe.

 

JH: Well we would be very happy to talk with him directly about that, can you get him for us?

 

MI: Col. Gadhafi has been meeting with press around the world and you could request an interview with him and I’ll pass it on.

 

JH: Consider it requested.