BROOKE GLADSTONE: In the course of covering the war for hearts and minds in the Middle East, we came across a web site called clandestineradio.com. The name is self-explanatory -- the site tracks radio stations that are generally operated by opposition groups of every political stripe and all they have in common is that they are almost always unwelcomed by the governments of the nations that receive their signals. Nick Grace is managing editor of clandestineradio.com, and he says more and more these underground radio stations are operating above the ground.

NICK GRACE: When you see clandestine radio, of course, that generally implies that the station is run-- in the woods or run from caves or run covertly so to speak. However, really there's been a trend more towards, as we call them, white clandestine radio stations -- "white" being "overt" -- those that are run by exile groups, openly from, say, California broadcasting programming into Iran which of course the government of Iran would not be pleased with. There are similar groups broadcasting from the United States to Laos, to Iraq, to pretty much a number of countries all around the world.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:You mentioned that a lot of these stations operating openly are sending signals from America or from American-backed organizations, but there are also plenty of openly-operated stations that are being operated from other countries, right?

NICK GRACE: Absolutely! For example, in Russia there is a radio station that is broadcasting openly by the Russian government to Chechnya called Radio Free Chechnya. Also, Iran has been pumping in many hours of overt propaganda into Iraq. The U.S. is not the only player in this game.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:I wonder how many covert radio stations are generally funded or backed by foreign governments and how many are actually these activist or dissident groups working outside the country or inside.

NICK GRACE:Currently there are very few radio stations that are covertly funded, sponsored and supported by governments around the world. During the Cold War, of course, nearly every clandestine radio station on the air did have a government or state backer behind them, but since the Berlin Wall came down, there really has been a decrease in government-backed clandestine radio stations.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:Speaking of the Cold War, recently the Cuban government accused the U.S. of increasing its radio and TV broadcasts into Cuba and, and this is pretty much the case, isn't it?

NICK GRACE:The United States military has a plane called Commando Solo which is always used during military intervention to broadcast psychological warfare messages to the public. No sooner had the Commando Solo aircraft returned to the U.S. from its operations over in, in the Middle East -- it was deployed to Florida to broadcast radio and TV Marti into Cuba. One way you can measure the success of a clandestine radio station is to watch the response of the target government, and of course Cuba has not been very pleased with Radio Marti in recent days.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:But Nick, what about the objections like those of Cuba that covert radio operations violate international law and the sovereignty of a nation?

NICK GRACE:Cuba broadcasts to the United States Radio Havana! The U.S. is not breaking any laws by intruding into the airwaves of these countries, and Cuba, for example, jams these broadcasts, so they can take their own measures in trying to block these signals and they do.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:Now Nick you're a real believer in clandestine radio of course and, and in a March article on the situation in North Korea you basically advocated that the U.S. launch a psychological war against North Korea. Why do you advocate this sort of action?

NICK GRACE:What I am proposing is that the United States de-stabilize the elite in Pyongyang -- the Korean People's Army -- as well as the, the bureaucracy over there by providing the people of North Korea with a workable way of being able to pull in the U.S. propaganda. Over there, for example, it is against the law for people to listen to the radio! The only radios that are for sale in North Korea are those sold by the government, which are fixed-frequency. The United States can broadcast its 5 hours of the Voice of America and Radio Free Asia all it wants to that country, but the listeners -- if they have a radio that is not fixed on the government broadcast outlet, they will go to jail! So what the U.S. ought to do is to mimic domestic North Korean radio programming with actual sound bites and audio of, of the domestic programs and drop in bits and pieces of pro-democratic messages in there, and the listeners will not have to take such a great risk to listen to the, these broadcasts.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: But will the American broadcasts then have to piggy-back on to the North Korea frequencies in order to be heard?

NICK GRACE:Absolutely. And the U.S. has done that with great effect in the past. We've done it against China; we did it during the Vietnam War.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:Okay, well as a practical matter then, have any of these other covertly-run stations ever managed to spark an overthrow or somehow influence the course of events in the countries in which they're broadcast?

NICK GRACE:Absolutely. I'll give you a pressing example. Back during the first Gulf War, when it was finishing up, the United States broadcast a speech by President Bush number 41 into Iraq calling for the Shi'ites in the south to rise up against Saddam Hussein. They did! They responded. The U.S., however, did not follow up with the propaganda. They did not support the uprising that our government had sparked. The same goes for Hungary back in 1956. Over a radio station called Radio Free Hungary the United States encouraged the population to rise up which they did. However President Eisenhower did not follow through with the U.S. action and did not support the uprising, and as a result, the uprising was crushed and Hungary swung into the Communist sphere. Radio does have a very powerful effect. However what it requires is a commitment from Washington to follow through with the promises and with the implied promises that it makes in these broadcasts.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Nick this has been absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much.

NICK GRACE: Thank you very much, Brooke. It's been a pleasure.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Nick Grace is the managing editor of clandestineradio.com.

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