BROOKE GLADSTONE: We move next to another enduring icon, the food pyramid. It was redesigned and relaunched last April, but just this week, the Department of Agriculture said it will be slightly altered again to reflect mercury warnings about fish. But you probably won't notice, unless you go to the Department's website, because the new design basically consists of vertical stripes without words or pictures. Jeffrey Shaffer of the Christian Science Monitor wrote that to him, quote, "It looks like the kind of undecipherable road sign drivers might encounter while motoring in one of the former Soviet Republics." Last April we spoke to Marion Nestle, professor of nutrition and public health at New York University about the pyramid. Here's a piece of that. You know, I'm kind of interested in the pyramid as a very important piece of American iconography. It dates back to 1992. But, I -

MARION NESTLE: Well, actually it dates back to 1991, which is when the Department of Agriculture first tried to release it and was forced to withdraw it under pressure from the cattlemen's associations and the dairy lobbying groups, because they didn't like where their food ended up at the top of the pyramid. So in this version they've gotten rid of that problem. There isn't anything at the top of the pyramid.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: [LAUGHS]

MARION NESTLE: I guess you're supposed to figure out where it went. One of the interesting things about it from my standpoint is that Porter Novelli, the public relations firm that developed this, had done an earlier version in which there was clear hierarchy. It had whole wheat bread at the bottom and cinnabons at the top. And all of the "eat less" messages have been gotten rid of, so there isn't anything that you can't eat.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: This pyramid doesn't tell you anywhere to eat less. And you mentioned Porter Novelli, this public relations group. Other departments of Porter Novelli represent various food industry clients with a lot at stake in the development of this pyramid. Should we be at all concerned about this?

MARION NESTLE: Well, we should because conflict of interest is just rife in this entire process. It isn't only that Porter Novelli has conflict of interest, but the Department of Agriculture has conflict of interest. And this conflict has gone back many, many years. On the one hand, the Department's main function is to promote consumption of American agricultural products. And for that, the USDA must ask people to eat more, not less. At the same time, the Department is supposed to be the lead agency for advising the public about diet and health. This sometimes means eat less. It certainly should mean eat less junk food.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And it doesn't even say that.

MARION NESTLE: It can't say that. It gets into too much political trouble.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And so your feeling is, is that this pyramid - this has been a multimillion dollar – is it too strong to say disaster?

MARION NESTLE: Well, I don't know whether it's a disaster. I just don't think it's helpful. I mean, if you want to help the American people at a time when people are so overweight, you want an educational campaign focused on eating less. And to do that, you have to restrict portion size. Everything should be about portion size these days.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: How do you visually depict eating less?

MARION NESTLE: Well, I'm not a graphic designer but if somebody gave me two and a half million dollars, I bet I could find somebody who could do it.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Marion, thank you very much.

MARION NESTLE: My pleasure.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Marion Nestle is professor of nutrition, food studies and public health at New York University. And now this perspective from Marilyn Manson.

MARILYN MANSON [SINGING]: The ancient Pharaohs were not too bright, they say, but they made one contribution that I live by to this day. It's the food pyramid, and it's approved by the U.S.D.A. Oh, grains are the foundation, so please take my advice. Have five to eleven servings of bread, cereal, or rice. Three to five of vegetables and four of fruits is best. Their antioxidants and fiber help you to digest. Three servings of yogurt, milk, and cheese will help your bones and subsidize the cattle industries. A body needs to grow, and growing takes proteins. That's why meat can be a tasty treat, like fish or human beings. And when you eat your sweets, make sure you try to limit your servings, or you'll DIE!!!! EVERYBODY!

MARILYN & SINGERS: My body is a pyramid that's made of healthy food, so do what we say – CHORUS: Yeah!

MARILYN & SINGERS: Eat right every day! CHORUS: Food!

MARILYN & SINGERS: I – love – you! [END OF SONG] [MUSIC UP AND UNDER]

RICK KARR: That's it for this week's show. On the Media was produced by Megan Ryan, Tony Field, Jamie York and Mike Vuolo, and edited by Brooke. Dylan Keefe is our technical director and Jennifer Munson our engineer. We had engineering help from Rob Christiansen and editorial help from Katie Holt and Kevin Schlottmann. Our webmaster is Amy Pearl.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Katya Rogers is our senior producer and John Keefe our executive producer. This is On the Media, from WNYC. Bob will be back next week. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

RICK KARR: And I'm Rick Karr. (MUSIC TAG) (FUNDING CREDITS)