Brooke Gladstone: Welcome to the midweek On the Media podcast. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

Micah Loewinger: I'm Micah Loewinger. Hey, Brooke.

Brooke: Hi, Micah.

Micah: For this week's podcast, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to have a conversation, you and me, about something that we're doing at the show that's kind of big.

Brooke: Yes, it is big. That decision is for us hosts to start reading some of the ads that listeners will hear on the podcast, not on terrestrial radio, of course. That's got different rules now. Now, we haven't read the ads on the podcast until now, and there's a really good, if obvious, reason why we're about to.

Micah: Because we, as the hosts, have not read the ads, this has limited the amount of ads that we can feature on the show. It's limited the number of ads that the WNYC team can secure for us. That's one reason why we're rethinking this model. The other reason that's a bit harder for us is that, as many listeners probably know, public media in general is going through a tough time. There have been challenges after challenges, particularly in the past year. Recently, some outlets, like Current and CNN, have reported that this month, in mid September, our producing station, WNYC, plans to cut at least 8% of our workforce.

Brooke: Again.

Micah: Again, yes. This is after a substantial round of cuts this time last year.

Brooke: Last year, we lost a producer, so did some of our other shows. We lost friends around the station, too. They're gone now. Mostly, for your purposes, listeners, this is about what you get to keep hearing. Now, Micah, you've reported on the nervous condition of public media and podcasting for us, and also about the particular role of declining ad money in the podcast industries contraction. Relate that, too, on the media.

Micah: I'm not going to pretend to be some ad expert, but the economy is funky, and for all kinds of reasons, companies are spending less money on advertising, and that has really hurt WNYC. I know it's hurt all kinds of media, but it's really had an outsized effect on the podcast industry. Like we mentioned, there were layoffs over here last year. At the time, our president, LaFontaine Oliver, cited a decline in advertising, what we call sponsorship.

We saw that at other companies like Pushkin Industries, which is Malcolm Gladwell's podcast company, they cut a third of their staff. LAist, which was formerly known as KPCC, got rid of some of their podcast-only shows. NPR cut over 100 jobs. Everyone's feeling it, but we're all feeling it, I think, especially rough.

Brooke: Right. As a public radio show, we're not just relying on ad money. It's just an area where we have some potential for growth. We still have the membership model. That's when listeners like you guys support us, and that still is our most reliable source of funding. There's also foundation and corporate money, but that's been in decline, along with your classic podcast ads. Where does that leave us now? We've got to leverage more of that ad money, right?

Micah: I think so, yes. Our issue is that a show like On the Media, a show about the news that's deeply edited, that features original reporting, that isn't just a couple people sitting around a table shooting the breeze, this is an expensive show to make. I think that's why it's really good, is that we have really smart people and we compensate them fairly for putting a great program together.

Whereas there's this other big style of show, which is just like the personality-driven chat shows. Those, I think, are having a bit of an easier time securing ad money, perhaps because they're not always talking about the news and because--

Brooke: I'll just say it, Micah. It's because they're more commercial.

Micah: Yes. I mean, I don't want to speak too generally here.

Brooke: It's not a bad thing. It's just not what we are.

Micah: Fair enough. I think what advertisers like about host-read ads, what they like less about the kind of sponsorship ad where you have the voice actor whose name we don't know, who reads the ad, is that advertisers, they want to piggyback on the trust that audiences feel with their favorite personalities, what's often called the parasocial relationship. The fact that we have not read those ads has limited the number of ads we can get. We're drawing from a smaller and smaller pool of companies and organizations that want to pay us to have ads featured on our show.

Brooke: Micah, you raised this idea of us reading the ads. It was very popular with the people who look at the money. What gave you the idea, and how do you imagine that they'll sound?

Micah: It's not like I'm some advertising nerd who just loves to read ads and hear them. It's not like that. It's that I see the changes that are happening more broadly in the media. I'm seeing that some older financial models are becoming much less sustainable, much less predictable, and I believe just this is a business decision. I think that this is a necessary, and honestly, increasingly basic part of having a podcast that will exist for years to come.

I mean, Brooke, I think this might be a bigger change for us than it will be for some of our listeners. If you listen to Pod Save America, or popular news shows on Slate, like what next with Mary Harris? Or even Death, Sex & Money, hosted by our former colleague, Anna Sale. Gimlet shows when they were around, all the big chat shows do this. They all have these host-read ads. That is the norm. Again, it's because advertisers are willing to pay more for these ads. I take this decision very seriously, but this, I think, will help us shore up some of the finances with our show and ensure that it's going to be on the air for years to come.

Brooke: I honestly think that it may be hard for people to believe that whenever we come on asking them to contribute, that it isn't just a pro forma ask. In the last couple of years, it's actually become existential.

Micah: Which is not to say that this has been some super straightforward decision. We are thinking through the ethics of this, and we're trying to internally figure out what our boundaries are, which I'd like to ask you about. I mean, what do you think should be the basic rules for how we choose ads and how we read them?

Brooke: Well, I think we need to steer away from our coverage areas so that we don't raise eyebrows or questions about conflicts of interest. That's pretty obvious. No political ads, obviously, or ads from entities we're likely to cover. For instance, big media companies or the oil and tobacco industries because we've covered their misinformation campaigns, and we may still.

Obviously, if you start reading ads, it could raise eyebrows and questions about conflicts of interest. I just want to be clear. The ads, whether or not we read them, aren't going to change the stories we take on or how we report them.

Micah: Look, we've always had a firewall between the editorial side of what we do and the business, and this ad thing is not going to change that whatsoever.

Brooke: If you listen to the show a lot, you feel like you know us, and to a large extent, you do because we essentially play ourselves on the air when we refer to a product, a company that may be more persuasive. That doesn't mean we're going to endorse just anything. We'll think very carefully about our choices. If it's a product that we really can't stand, I don't see us ever reading an ad about it.

Micah: What's an ad that you would really like to read that you think we're well suited for?

Brooke: I'll answer this question if you do.

Micah: Okay.

Brooke: For every wedding that a staff member has had while I've been on the show for the entire third millennium, I've always gifted the happy couple with a Tivoli radio. I have many in my home. I love them. Tivoli, come to us. Let us read your ad. Because I can do that full-throatedly. How about you?

Micah: This sucks because I think you've stolen my answer, but I was going to say, I use a Sennheiser microphone for all my interviews, and I really like their products. It seems like we're both drawn to the radio and audio stuff.

Brooke: Listeners, how do you feel about us reading ads? You think it's gonna bug you? If you're inclined, you can send us an email to onthemedia@wnyc.org and let us know. Meanwhile, thanks for listening to this week's midweek podcast.

Micah: Remember to tune into the big show on Friday. Among other things, we're going to be answering the question, why is the election coverage felt so freaking weird recently?

Brooke: Why indeed? Well, thanks, Micah.

Micah: Thanks, Brooke. Bye.

Brooke: Bye.

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