Helga Davis: You wake up in the morning, and then what happens?

Speaker 2: [laughs]

Helga Davis: Oh, put your headphones on, Peter.

Speaker 3: Uh, uh, oh, yeah, come on, put your arms around.

Speaker 4: I wanna hug you and hug you and hug you some more, right through all these microphone cables.

Speaker 5: Go ahead.

[laughter]

Speaker 5: I know I'm in the right time, in the right space.

Helga Davis: Do you feel that?

[music]

Helga Davis: I'm Helga Davis. Have you ever found yourself in a place where you literally stop, you look around, and you say, "Where am I?" I found myself in such a situation recently. And I was walking around. I had champagne. I had, uh, beautiful art around me, beautiful people, but somehow my mooring was loose. And I thought if there were just one person here, just one, I could be okay. If there were one person I could look at and see my own face, have my own values, my own sense of self reflected back at me, I can be here. And then I looked up, and there was my person, Sarah Jones.

What was beautiful about the encounter was that we didn't say one word to each other. We looked, we hugged, we found home, and we kept going. Sarah Jones is an actor and playwright who won both the Tony Award and the Obie Award for her piece, Bridge & Tunnel. She is famous for the characters she portrays, but I'm here to tell you, they are not portrayals. They come through her.

What you need to know about the people who visit Sarah is that they are not here to be played on a stage in front of people, they are here to help us understand something about ourselves, about the country we live in, or about the world we live in, about who our neighbors are, who they are, what they think, how they feel. The result of which is an experience that helps us, the viewer, expand our world, expand our imaginations, and expand what we might think we know about the other. This is Sarah Jones.

[music]

Helga Davis: Tell me about this bird around your neck.

Sarah Jones: This bird around my neck represents-- First of all, it's fun. There's a--

Helga Davis: Let's be clear about that.

Sarah Jones: It's a bi--

Helga Davis: She has a big piece of bling.

Sarah Jones: I have a huge bird, um, I imagine--

Helga Davis: Nestled-

Sarah Jones: Nestled-

Helga Davis: -between your breasts.

Sarah Jones: -really at my bosom.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: She-she can hang wherever she wants. So, depending on the outfit, I might put her way up here.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: But today she's-she's protect-- she is literally a breastplate-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -which, um, protected warriors when they went into battle. And right now I am doing a kind of, um, I hope, good-natured battle with my, um, past, future, and present.

Helga Davis: Not-not-- Okay. So, I wanna do this-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -because I saw you the other night-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -at that party-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -right? And you know, when you walk around a place like that, uh-

Sarah Jones: It was a lot.

Helga Davis: -it was a whole lot. And what happened was that when I saw you, I finally-- I suddenly said, "Oh, now I know where I am."

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And I didn't mean in the place-

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: -I mean inside myself.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: I said, "Okay. You're-- It's okay-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -just keep walking around. Do-do whatever it is you wanna do here-

Sarah Jones: Hmm.

Helga Davis: -and know that you are home."

Sarah Jones: Hmm. I felt exactly the same. I had-- Well, I'll-I'll add the detail that when I arrived at that place, headphones were being given out-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -uh, which encouraged silence, and going inward at an event like that that couldn't have been splashier with the red carpet, and I had no makeup on, came in my crazy coat. I'd been out all day, and I'm watching boldface name after boldface name step up to that carpet, and then, "Ms. Jones." I was like, "Oh, Lord, please don't let anybody see me in this crazy--" And yet, the juxtaposition of splashy, splashy flashbulbs and headphones literally designed to help you, you know, listen to your own heartbeat, that's the space I'm navigating. That's what this bird is about. I am in a-- what a friend calls, home practice. I am practicing-

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: -inhabiting my home within while, uh, making peace with the fact that this world outside me is also my home, and I must make it, um, a more hospitable place than I sometimes let it be, no matter who the president-elect is at any given moment, no matter what is happening on a red carpet, or-- I have to be able to find homecoming at any time. The great news is the universe helps me out, like seeing you at that event.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: And so I had already gotten the-- I already had the, um, mandate to go inward in an environment like that, where it's supposed to be, "Oh, hi." Air kisses. "Oh, hi. Oh, hi." And-- but I said, "Oh, wait, I can do this. I can both be in this space physically and maintain fidelity to myself and to my heartbeat as I move through this space and look at this artwork and bump into people."

And I bumped into various people before I even saw you. And a couple of them were my, you know, my family of choice, artists, and different people I know and love. And then when I saw you, there was a dropping into my body in a different way, just a recognition of how powerfully you reflect and refract the light of other people because you are so present to your own light. And I was reminded that at my best, I can do that too. I am that too.

Helga Davis: It was so beautiful and important to see you, like-- but at that moment.

Sarah Jones: Right.

Helga Davis: But I wanna read you your text message to me because this also is-- I feel like it's exactly where so many people are-

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: -with what you-- with-with the things that you're talking about in the beginning about being home, about no matter what the environment around us, that we be able to be with ourselves-

Sarah Jones: That's right.

Helga Davis: -to navigate home within ourselves. [clears throat] So here's what you said. "I'm walking right through the heart of some reckoning, healing, grief, and what I call the grelief on the other side."

Sarah Jones: [chuckles]

Helga Davis: So intense. "And I am willing. Sending love for wherever you are on your path at this moment."

Sarah Jones: Mm. I text like that, huh?

Helga Davis: Yeah, baby.

Sarah Jones: Ooh.

Helga Davis: What?

Sarah Jones: I'm--

Helga Davis: They know about you.

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: You know, I can text you like that because you speak and sing and write and emote in this way that is exactly, you-you know, I identify deeply with you because when I say I am walking through the heart of grelief and it's a made-up word, but I know that you have that word within. I think everyone has-

Helga Davis: Yes.

Sarah Jones: -these colors within-

Helga Davis: Yes.

Sarah Jones: -them, but some of us have been on a journey that I don't wanna say forces, but invites in a forceful way.

Helga Davis: Insists.

Sarah Jones: Insists.

Helga Davis: Insists.

Sarah Jones: That's good. Let's do insists. I was gonna go all the way to like entreaties, you know, uh-

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: -implores. Um, but yes, these experiences, the idea that we are the-- a composite. I mean, I was joking about intergenerational trauma-

Helga Davis: It's not a joke. [laughs]

Sarah Jones: -but ain't nothing funny. Right. It's not really that funny.

Helga Davis: It might be a joke, but it's not funny.

Sarah Jones: It's not really that funny. And I started to mention, you-you know, "It's a pity you come so Black," right? And I have my own version of "It's a pity you come so--" fill it in. You know, "Why am I so tall? Why am I not white? You know, why don't I look white like my mother? Why don't I have that hair?" I mean, and the hours and hours of life spent in this pitched battle with myself. Um, and then coming through that, and when I say coming through, I mean, just having a new relationship to it, right, because it-it don't- it don't stop. Thank you, Puffy. It don't.

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: It's just that I keep adapting to-- You know, every morning, I wake up new.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: And every morning, the same, what do they say, 125,000 thoughts that went through your head yesterday are probably gonna go through your head again today, unless you actively choose new thoughts, new experiences, um, and a new way of befriending yourself around all that history. Am I too Black? Am I too tall? Am I-- And you know, I--

Helga Davis: Too anything.

Sarah Jones: Too anything. And I-- What's funny is--

Helga Davis: Too smart.

Sarah Jones: Too smart.

Helga Davis: Too--

Sarah Jones: Too, uh, capable. How dare you shine? Who do you think you are? I mean, there's so much of it. And what I find fascinating is-- You know, I was married to a White guy for a long time. I got to hear, and I've dated quite a few and I've dated around the-the ethnic spectrum a little bit. So even this idea of gender and this idea of ethnicity as, you know, the society at large may create a hierarchy and privilege certain people over others, but that internal dialogue-- uh, monologue, dialogue, whatever it is, it ends up being a dialogue, right?

'Cause it's the voice of the internal parent, whether you got that from your actual parents or magazines or whatever it may be that says, "You're not enough. You're not okay. You're too much, you know, you're white, therefore you should have done better by now. What's wrong with you?" I find it fascinating that we could all have a conversation about self alienation and what does it look like to find a way to befriend yourself in spite of the self-talk of, you know, years or even decades that tells you you're-- you know, you're inadequate in some fundamental way.

Helga Davis: But I-- And-and in addition to this, I feel like the part that really causes us pain-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm. Mm.

Helga Davis: -that really causes us pain.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -is that there is a part of us that knows better.

Sarah Jones: Yes, yes. From-from birth. We have an innate-

Helga Davis: It knows better.

Sarah Jones: -innate self-love. I mean, we all have. That's-- It's what-- It's where the schism comes from. When you're standing there and you're Helga Davis and you are in a mirror looking at your magnificence, but somewhere there's a whisper that says, "Pity you come so Black." It's almost like cognitive dissonance. You can't process your own beauty, um, kind of butting up against this authority figure, this-this-this beloved-- you know, as a family member, we love these people, and yet--

So that, I think it's that conflict that-- It's the space where art is born, it's the space where deep relationships and connection to fellow creative, and I-I really agree with lots of people out there who I love, but I'm thinking of Liz Gilbert right now, 'cause I just saw her. You know, she has that book, Big Magic, where she talks about, um, creative living beyond fear. And the idea is that everybody's an artist. We're born self-loving, we are born creative, we are born to-- as the-- I'm quoting everybody now, Marianne Williamson-

Helga Davis: Get on.

Sarah Jones: -you know, "Make manifest the glory of God or whatever you need to fill in there, universe." We are born to make manifest that glory that is within us.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: And it's not just in some people, it's not just in geniuses, it is in everyone. And then we come out into the world and are faced with-- I keep saying intergenerational, but some-some of us come from-- you know, I come from, like, an under earning, under being dynasty. People who for generations we're like, "Oh-oh, is that greatness leaking out? How do I get rid of that? Let me go get high."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: So I don't have to feel my greatness-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -in the face of people telling me I'm, you know, I-I'm a n***er, or in the face of people telling me I'm a woman, and so I'm not allowed to become a doctor. My mom, my dad, you know, my grandparents, our forebears, so many of them, whether it's the Irish potato farming, whatever these geopolitical stories are, are playing out in family dynamics. To this day, I still save plastic bags like my depression era grandmother, I'm-I'm in the four seasons. You know what I mean?

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: I'm in some hotel, pulling out, you know, a ziplock bag. They're like, "Ma'am, can we, um-- [laughs] Can we help? Can we-- We could deliver you--" I'm, "No, I'm going-- This is perfectly good." I stood [unintelligible 00:14:02] in Whole Foods for this." You know, I just--

Helga Davis: I'm going to recycle. Damn you.

Sarah Jones: I'm gonna recycle. And it probably has to do with, you know, stories that ha-have nothing to do with 2016.

Helga Davis: Nothing. Nothing.

Sarah Jones: Nothing.

Helga Davis: Nothing.

Sarah Jones: This-this is a story from-

Helga Davis: Nothing

Sarah Jones: -from 1916-

Helga Davis: Nothing.

Sarah Jones: -that is still playing out 100 years later with me and my ziplock bags in a hotel lobby. [laughs] I'm glad I could laugh about it, 'cause it's a little bit embarrassing.

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: I'm working on it. I'm working on it.

Helga Davis: We don't laugh 'cause it's funny.

Sarah Jones: No, we don't.

Helga Davis: We laugh because it's true.

Sarah Jones: We laugh because it's true.

Helga Davis: Thank you, Sekou Sundiata.

Sarah Jones: Thank you, Sekou Sundiata. Oh, I just missed him in a really deep way just now. He introduced me to the phrase, the throw phrase, companionable solitude.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: And I will be gosh darned if that didn't help me, um, get through-- Almost all of my biggest, most painful moments have been the homecoming where you come home and realize, "Oh, it-- We need a DIY up in here." This home has been neglected and is- and is in danger of being condemned if we don't come in here and do some deep, um, inventory work, what's here? What's going on? Who am I really? Not out there, not in public, but who-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -can I come home to? And if it looks broken and, like, the floorboards need, you know, some addressing and all of this, I need to take the time and I need to turn this into companionable solitude. And from there, I can write, and from there, my characters, I told them, I was like, "This is gonna be me and Helga time, so you all can't come out and talk."

And they said, "Are you sure I can't even just appear for a minute? I'm a fan of Helga Davis, Einstein on the Beach. Are you kidding me? I can't come? I can't come and visit? Is it-- What is this, some kind of punishment? I don't understand. So here I am. Uh, she didn't ask me, but I get to, sometimes I need to come home too. It's not only about Sarah Jones." All right. So, but the-- but they-- actually, my characters bring me home.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: When I'm really wandering, I can remember being backstage in some big fight with my producers or whatever is going on and Miss Lady, the older homeless character.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: She's a woman who's homeless. And she would come out and say, "Are you about to sit there and cry and be mad at some white people? First of all, you got white in you, so you gonna have to let that go right now. You know-

Helga Davis: How about that?

Sarah Jones: -and then on top of it is-is you gon' sit here and cry when you warm and you got a bed-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -that you going home to tonight, that's your bed-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -and you can lock the door and be safe. Don't you dare sit there and cry."

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: And I need that. I need them to get me out of my-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -self pity, my-my mishegoss.

Helga Davis: I wanna ask you a question that I asked Kara Walker when I met her.

Sarah Jones: Mm, love her.

Helga Davis: I was in her studio.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: I went there. This the first-- She's the first person I ever spoke with in this way.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And I don't know whose idea it was to send me. [laughs]

Sarah Jones: Mm. You-- And you know where to start.

Helga Davis: But they did.

Sarah Jones: You know where to start.

Helga Davis: They did.

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: And I went into her studio and I was looking at the garbage.

Sarah Jones: Mm. Mm.

Helga Davis: It was the year that she had her retrospective at the Whitney. And it seemed to me that the garbage was as beautiful-

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: -as what-what was finally-

Sarah Jones: Being celebrated. Right?

Helga Davis: -put on the walls.

Sarah Jones: Right.

Helga Davis: And-

Sarah Jones: Wow.

Helga Davis: -I looked around and then I sat down and I looked at her and I said, "What happened when you started making money?"

Sarah Jones: Mm. Mm. That's a great question.

Helga Davis: And she did not even breathe. She said, "I got divorced."

Sarah Jones: Woo, woo. Wow.

Helga Davis: And I hadn't expected that.

Sarah Jones: Right.

Helga Davis: But I asked the question because I was aware of the enormity of all that had been sacrificed.

Sarah Jones: Mm. Woo.

Helga Davis: All that-that had been made and neglected.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And-and pushed down-

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: -in order to arrive at this huge moment of celebration.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And everyone can be there for the celebration. Like that's easy.

Sarah Jones: Mm. Yes. Right, right, right. It's the byproduct. It's that--

Helga Davis: It's the day after.

Sarah Jones: Right.

Helga Davis: Or the 30 years before, or--

Sarah Jones: I was gonna say it's the--

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: It's that little-- the few decades running up to the celebrate.

Helga Davis: And so you said earlier that you had been married, which I didn't know.

Sarah Jones: Yes. I was married.

Helga Davis: And then something started to happen with your career.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And then what happened with you?

Sarah Jones: You know, I-I identify with-- a-and I wanna start by saying the person to whom I was married is a good-- is a lovely soul. And I was married for five years, but we were together for 10. And those were my-- You know, I was- I was doing it. I was-- Um, I went to-- I did my first off-Broadway show. I did, uh, Bridge & Tunnel-- Well, I did a few shows--

Helga Davis: Before.

Sarah Jones: Before. And I met this person, um, right when I was, like, starting to do my thing. And I need to say, I have always had this fraught relationship to fame-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -and to celebrity notoriety, hie-- the hierarchical feeling of A-list, B-list, all letters, all the way down. And I-- My-- I love my dad. He's a wonderful character. Um, very complicated. And one of the complications was this, um, focus on fame and, um, [clears throat] recognition, uh, prestige. And I understand now wha-- like, to grow up as a Black man in the South in America at precisely the time he did and be the only Black man in every class. People, uh, my friends would joke and call my house-- well, they wouldn't joke, but they would call and say, you know, my dad would answer the phone and they'd say, "I thought your mother was the white one."

First of all, my mom's not white. She's- [clears throat] she's mixed. She just looks totally white, but my dad would answer the phone, "Oh, um, hello there. Are you calling for my daughter? I see. Well, is there something I can, uh, we should really talk about before-- just-- I'm not- I'm not just gonna let anybody in here. Let's, uh, have a little vetting process."

Helga Davis: That's right, Dad.

Sarah Jones: He was such a character. And he wa-- yes.

Helga Davis: That's right.

Sarah Jones: Yes, and he grew up in Baltimore at a time when segregation and antisemitism were, you know, thi-this confluence of all that prejudice meant Jewish kids had limitations around where they could be, lots of restriction, and so did Black kids. And so he would be in a class that was all Jewish kids and him. And he was very identified with his classmates. And-and so he was sort of this Jewish kid trapped in a Black man's body in a strange way.

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: Anyway, that we could do. That's a whole show, but the point is, I remember that he always wanted to be other than what he was.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: Um, it felt like even within the rubric of inferiority, he was inferior to the inferior, to somebody else who was a little bit more superior. And what a-- what a deep scar to leave on a human soul. And I feel like we as a country are being invited right now to humble ourselves, to look at just how often we are inflicting this horrific [unintelligible 00:21:50] disfigurement telling people that they are either above or below. And I need to be clear. Telling somebody they are superior is dehumanizing them.

Helga Davis: Well--

Sarah Jones: Yeah.

Helga Davis: That's why I have to bust out my Jimmy Baldwin right here.

Sarah Jones: Do it, girl, please.

Helga Davis: Right?

Sarah Jones: It's always a good time for Jimmy.

Helga Davis: Hatred, which could destroy so much never failed to destroy the man who hated. And this was an immutable law. Period.

Sarah Jones: Period.

Helga Davis: Period.

Sarah Jones: Period, the end. Can we make that our new Declaration of Independence? 'Cause the old one broken and ain't working. And I feel like our independence as individuals, as community, and as a country, like, we are going to continue this dependency on what feels to me almost like a collective emotional disturbance. Like we are a collectively emotionally disturbed society because none of us are honestly reckoning with what privilege, what, again, disfigurement results when you tell anybody that they are superior to anybody else and when you tell anybody that they are inferior.

That it's just, you know, contagion from there. And unless you get to the root of that, the root, the heart of that, um, we will keep putting band-aids on this mess, uh, that we-we find ourselves in. And when you put band-aids over, you know, gangrene long enough, this is what you get. You get where we are right at this moment and everybody's going, "Oh my God." And I'm like, "Uh, we've been-"

Helga Davis: Not so much.

Sarah Jones: "-slap--" Yeah. You know, you've just been looking at the wrong community.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: You know, if you watch a film like 13th, it will help you understand just where so many of us, three million people disenfranchised, you know, locked into a system that basically is a de facto, uh, you know, reconfiguration of slavery. It's ridiculous. And yet--

Helga Davis: You can't even talk to me-

Sarah Jones: I know.

Helga Davis: -about 13th.

Sarah Jones: Ooh, girl. It's a, ugh. I mean--

Helga Davis: Because I watched it. I was in Italy.

Sarah Jones: Oh God, you watched it while in Italy.

Helga Davis: And the interesting thing about being in the situation I was in, in Italy, first of all, I was working with someone who is really my family, you know?

Sarah Jones: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Um, and he and his partner, like, their entire family, have adopted-- have adopted me.

Sarah Jones: Right. You are just--

Helga Davis: I go to dinner, there are 15, sometimes 20 people around the table, everybody screaming. It's just- it's just like being with-with the Caribbean people. It's exac-- it's the same.

Sarah Jones: Slightly different accent.

Helga Davis: Same dinner.

Sarah Jones: Same dinner.

Helga Davis: Same dinner. And they-they have an idea-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -of America that has been completely shattered.

Sarah Jones: Mm. Mm.

Helga Davis: But, uh, it's not possible for, uh, that you-- but, Helga, but tell me.

Sarah Jones: But how is it possible, uh--

Helga Davis: That, uh, you, uh, put Trump.

Sarah Jones: Trump-Trump, it's not possible, uh. [Italian language]

Helga Davis: And it's like-- yeah. No. Yeah. And here's- here's a little documentary for you-

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: -to help you understand who I am-

Sarah Jones: Right.

Helga Davis: -in my country.

Sarah Jones: Right.

Helga Davis: And-and the part of it that is bitter for me-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -is that I'm sitting with these people who love me.

Sarah Jones: Yes, that's right. They do. That's right.

Helga Davis: And it is my work to receive that love.

Sarah Jones: That's our work, Helga. That's our work. And to receive it in spite of-- not even just in spite, but can I accommodate the vicious dehumanization that my own neighbors, loved ones, family-- You and I can both, you know, I-I don't have to go-

Helga Davis: All day long.

Sarah Jones: -very far to find white-

Helga Davis: All day long.

Sarah Jones: -relatives who, you know, would-- might--

Helga Davis: All day long.

Sarah Jones: Right? And yet that, um, the-the willingness, I mentioned that word willing 'cause willingness is everything. It is-- I would be very justified as would you. We could be very angry. And Sister Solange who was on your-- who was on Helga and who was so, um, I mean she's just such a-a powerful, um, and grounding energy for so-- you know, for someone who could be this really floaty presence in the world. She-- I-I just felt fortified by her and listening to her. And she talks about, you know, being mad.

And I got a lot to be mad about, and I am reminded that I get to accommodate that, I get to hold space for that anger. I better, 'cause if I don't, you know, what do they say? I mean, it's resentment, it's re-resent, you know, [Latin language], right? The Italian, uh, not the Italian, the-- Latin to feel the same thing over and over again, resent, keep feeling that anger. If I let that be the drip that's in my veins, no matter what you are doing, it might be totally justified, uh, for me to be this rageful.

I might be carrying and I am, right? We are, carrying, as Zora Neale Hurston said, you know, the n***er woman is the mule of the world, right? The-the-the- [laughs] the-the-the Negro man takes that burden and passes it down to her. That's that-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -old wisdom. And yet if-- you know, resent-- what did they say? Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other people to die.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: And I-I-I cannot and I will not. So I am willing to find that space of deep love around that table with my Italian chosen family, and when they say, [Italian language].

Helga Davis: No, no.

Sarah Jones: No, no. [Italian language] possible.

Helga Davis: Hel-Helga [Italian language]

[laughter]

Helga Davis: That's right. That's right, mama. Helga does not like anchovies. Thank you.

Sarah Jones: Sometimes that's all the Italian you need.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: [Italian language] That's-that's how I get out.

Helga Davis: That's really good.

Sarah Jones: Just say later. And then-then I don't have to keep talking. But like, we get to be loved. We get to be love, we get to be loved, we get to love others, whether they are capable of receiving that love or not. And even in the face of unspeakable harms done by others. I-I mean it sounds, you know, it's almost reductive now. Everybody goes to him when you think about this, but Mandela sat in a jail cell for 27 years and-and bestowed love upon his captors till the day he was released and then became their president. I-- do I love that story on all days?

Helga Davis: Yeah. Here's-here's the question.

Sarah Jones: Not on my-- on my best days I'm like, "That's wonderful." On my other day I'm like, "Why didn't he stab one of those motherfuckers in the neck, or-- at some opportune moment? How was there not a single moment--"

Helga Davis: Or the day I just-- I wanna break some shit.

Sarah Jones: I know. I know.

Helga Davis: I-I-- that's what I wanna do.

Sarah Jones: I know.

Helga Davis: I want.

Sarah Jones: I know.

Helga Davis: And I watch too, [laughs] when my energy gets very leaky.

Sarah Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Helga Davis: So like, I was leaky this morning.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And I know I have something going on. So I walked out of my apartment building and I began my good morning ministry.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm. Yes. [laughs]

Helga Davis: And, uh, a few people, they were plugged in-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -so they didn't hear me.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Um, my neighbor, Ms. Mack-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -said, "Good morning, honey."

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And I started to tear up.

Sarah Jones: Yes, babe. Yes.

Helga Davis: And then, uh, I passed Glassman Mike-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -who called me Sugar.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And I was thinking about a person who works here, uh, who calls me Sweet Pea.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And I just started to cry.

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: I was sitting right on the subway and weeping.

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: And I realized that. And I said, "Well, why are you crying, Helga?" And I said, "Because I'm not feeling--" it's-it's-it's an indication to me how I'm feeling about myself.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And in that moment, I was not seeing myself the way that other people see me.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Right?

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And so I was having to say, "I'm sorry-

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: -Helga.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: I'm sorry. I'm sorry but I'm angry right now.

Sarah Jones: Yeah.

Helga Davis: And, uh, I'm hurting right now."

Sarah Jones: Hmm.

Helga Davis: And so I need to sit for a moment-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -and try and find something to focus on [laughs]-

Sarah Jones: Oh yes.

Helga Davis: -so that this person bumping me with their bag-

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: -doesn't become the object of the thing that I can't really name right now.

Sarah Jones: That's the rabbit hole, right?

Helga Davis: Uh-huh.

Sarah Jones: That's the destruction.

Helga Davis: That-that is the destruction.

Sarah Jones: Right? Right.

Helga Davis: And people love to say all the time, "It's not about you."

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And we never wanna believe that.

Sarah Jones: It is true.

Helga Davis: But I know.

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: I know.

Sarah Jones: We know. We know.

Helga Davis: Um, and get still.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And just say, "It's okay. It's okay.

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: It's okay."

Sarah Jones: You just gave two of my favorite meditations.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: I'm sorry.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Sarah Jones: I'm sorry, Sarah, or I'm sorry, Helga. And It's okay. And you know, whether it's Thich Nhất Hanh, I think one of his phrases is, "Darling-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -I care about your suffering." Woo. I mean, I spent a lifetime feeling the opposite of that was true, and that it sort of-- there's sort of this meritocracy, you know, there's this world in which the less I- the less I am soft and feel, um, into that-that place you just described, being able to be present enough with yourself to say, "Hey, Helga, what's happening?" Most people don't check in like that. They would think you're crazy to even, you know, have a moment of connectivity with yourself, um, the way you would connect with a friend, a beloved friend.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: But who needs to be--

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: Who-who better to make sure you are checking in-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -with than yourself and letting it be all right that you, yeah, that you-- that your heart, um, is available and undefended, right? Like this illusion that defense works, it-- all it does is the more armor I get, the more I need. And so then my entire experience becomes about up armoring a little bit better today than I did yesterday because I put on the-- all that armor on and I'm still hurting. So I guess that means I need more. No.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: It means let go, check in, say, "Wow, I'm hurting." And as it turns out, it wasn't just people stepping on my sneakers. It's the way I react-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -to, you know, the-the-these transgressions and how I make them transgressions. Wow. Thanks for stepping on my sneaker. You showed me that my toes are strong and I can handle it.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: And I wish you a blessed day.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: Whatever that means to you. When I do that, I actually recharge my own battery.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: The m-- in-- and this is gonna sound crazy, but I've been practicing a forgiveness meditation for, I'm not even gonna say his name, but for people who I believe, you know, you said this on your podcast and I love this pithy little phrase, hurt people hurt people.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: But guess what? Free people free people. And if I can find the space within where I am free no matter what, where I am the Mandela of my own-- on my own scale, all of a sudden I am--

Helga Davis: I'm a free radical [laughs] in a good way.

Sarah Jones: I'm literally moving around in the world doing the equivalent of the good morning practice. And by the way, this does not elevate me to sainthood.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: I am messy. Everything-- you know, I still-

Helga Davis: Me too.

Sarah Jones: -get in the car and be cranky if the traffic and the-- and, um, but just to see it, just to have enough space and to pause, like you said, pause, get still, what is so unforgivable about this moment?

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: What is so unforgivable about this traffic? Oh, well, underneath that, I'm gonna be inadequate because I left late and then people will think I'm bad. You know, it's always, there's fear underneath my anxiety-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -and judgment of others, and fear underneath my anxiety and judgment of myself. So if I can just get underneath that and go, "Hey, babe, I know you're scared. I love you so much."

Helga Davis: So much.

Sarah Jones: "I love you so much." That's it, you know.

Helga Davis: I wanna ask you too, where are you finding these people? Is there some-- I-I'm-I'm curious to know two things.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: One, are they coming to you?

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: Is there a- is there a-a thing that you're saying and-and-and-- because I-I don't imagine it's, well, I need to make a new show now-

Sarah Jones: No, no.

Helga Davis: -and so I'm gonna go out and look-- I-I know it isn't that.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: So what is it?

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And then, what-what is it that you-you have to look at people-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -very deeply-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -to do what you do.

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And so I-I imagine that even in a casual way, even sitting here with me now, that there's a way you can look at me and tell how I'm feeling-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -or where I am-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -in my- in my emotional universe-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -over here.

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: The quantum physics of Helga's mind. Hearing into the-- I'm hearing into the-- [laughter]

Helga Davis: So tell me first-

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: -about your people.

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: The people in you-

Sarah Jones: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -as Abbey Lincoln would call them.

Sarah Jones: Yes. That's what Abbey would call them. Mm-hmm. And, uh, so my people, all of them I know are facets of my own experience, but which I then am privileged to kind of mix up and create an amalgam of some aspect of myself, or I wouldn't be drawn to these people, right, and the-- and whoever they are. And I've talked about this with, you know, I have mentors. It's such a funny little field of one person showdom where you play other-- so Tracy Elman, you know, Lily Tomlin, um, John Leguizamo. These are people I have turned to just to almost understand myself a little bit better. Like, why do we do-- where do we come from that we do this thing?

And Lily said something interesting. You know, she grew up in Detroit at a time when-- or I guess outside Detroit, at a time when race and, you know, gender, all of these conversations were swirling around. And she had these two kind of, you know, southern western parents, uh, who had one way of looking at things and doing things. And then she had neighbors who, "Hey, baby, what's up?" You know? And so when she went to create, I always lift her out because she had-- what was the name of her character? Purvis. He's like a Marvin Gaye type.

When she does Purvis, it's not white Lily Tomlin. There's something else happening there where she-- some aspect of Lily is like-- is melding with a deep Blackness. And I was like, "Oh," like it-- 'cause for a long time I was like, "Well, I'm-- as a person of color, I can get away with playing anybody I want to, but don't you dare be a white person coming up in here trying to ap-- you know, appropriate."

Helga Davis: Appropriate. Yes

Sarah Jones: Okay.

Helga Davis: There's the word.

Sarah Jones: We-- it's not a podcast unless you say the word. Can we get intersectionality in here at some point? I think we've got that. Okay. Great.

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: And we've said space several times, which I noticed I [unintelligible 00:37:45] my speech. Yes, I'm in this space. They're like, "We just wanna know what your order is." I'm in a space where I'd like arugula, uh, goat cheese. So, all right. So the-- so Lily, so all of that, my people, they are my family. I find them-- I do find them when it's time to write a show, Sell/Buy/Date is the show that I'm in-- that I'm living in right now. And it's about all of this. It's about this conversation that we're having today. It's about, um, you know, ostensibly it's about women and "sex work."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: And I put sex work in quotes because some people would call it commercial sex-sexual exploitation, not work, right? Um, and I wanna-- I create space for all of that in the show. And we meet an English woman who is the, um, she's sort of, you know, the sort of picture of detachment, right? I mean, just by virtue of how we speak, which is sort of saying, "Oh, I'm here, but not in any way that should disturb anyone." Um, while I-- you know, excuse me, while I sort of shrink back from my implicit privilege. You know, that sort--

Helga Davis: Uh-huh.

Sarah Jones: That's sort of her, but on her journey, you know, I needed to meet people for this particular piece who did for me the same thing my characters have always done. They open me up, they crack me open.

Helga Davis: How about that?

Sarah Jones: That's what they do. They force me open because, um, I have preconceived notions about people like everybody else. And I have had the privilege of growing up in a multicultural family, and it was normal to have-- you know, I had relatives who talk like, "Oh, Sarah, why? Oh, stop it. Come on. What do you do-- You're-you're Black. You're Black,

but you know, you're really more like a caramel color." And then I-- you know, I take that and I turn it into, like, routines. I try-- I really don't take people's original words. I really do try to rewrite stuff but-

Helga Davis: But.

Sarah Jones: -it's normal for me to feel multiplicity as a home base.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: And simultaneously, I think like many artists, um, there's a feeling of separate- of separateness. And my art is my bridge back to connection, right? I can feel a part anywhere. I can be in a room with Tracy Ross, and-- who looks damn near just like me, has the same hair, and, you know, uh, a couple of other women, we all look exactly as-- uh, who am I thinking of? Uh, Alison Palmer from Betty. There's a bunch of us. I just wanna get us all in a room so that we could all look around at each other and be like, "Oh, yeah, they always think I'm you in the airport. Oh, yeah, they always think I'm you. They always think I'm you." Even in a room where everybody looks just [laughs] like me, I can find a way to feel separate and apart from.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: And I don't know what that is in me, but I've stopped trying to figure it out.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: What I've discovered is the antidote is finding myself in everybody. Finding the everybody in myself. So in a way, they are my free therapy, they are my rescuers, my comfort, my refuge, and in return, my goal is to get out of the way of their innate dignity and beauty. It was really wonderful doing Sell/Buy/Date. Got a lot of beautiful reviews and critical acclaim and all this kind of wonderful stuff, and I'm grateful. And there was one review that was like, "Oh, Sarah Jones loves her characters so much and we love that about her, but, eh," and I just thought, "Wow, that is the heart of cynicism." First of all, of course, I was hurt, but-

Helga Davis: Of course.

Sarah Jones: -um, I think when I came, you know, when I was able to take a step back and detach from my own ego's pain, I thought, "Oh, not everybody believes that all characters are lovable." And I have, uh, my name is Hank. Uh, Helga, I wanna introduce myself here and I wanna say that, uh, Sarah Jones and I met-- uh, I am a Euro-European American rights advocate.

I wanna be clear that I do not, um, uh, philosophically, if you will, uh, agree with this idea of alt-right and all this kind of thing. That is not, uh, where I'm coming from. Uh, and I met Sarah Jones back in, uh, 1999. Uh, the Ku Klux Klan came here and rallied here in New York City, and I was here to offer an alternative to white folks who just want to be respectful of their own heritage. That's all. We don't go out for any of that robes and all that. That's archaic and it's pa-- all that pageantry, it's-- frankly, it makes them ridiculous in my mind.

Now, I believe that as a white man, if you can have Black schools and all of this, that you all are allowed to have, not allowed, I'm sorry, I know that's upsetting for people, if you can have your BET, why can't I have WET besides the fact that that word is wet, and I don't like the way that sounds. But, uh, my point is that as a white man, I argue constantly with Sarah Jones about my right to be a European American rights advocate. We don't agree. We don't get along. I don't like to go have tea with her and all of this.

However, um, I explained to her, you know, I had to mortgage my house, uh, f-for my son, he really wanted to go to agriculture school. I don't-- I didn't understand why he needed that. You know, we've been a family operation for many generations, but this is the economy we're in. I-- we are now having to live together, uh, because my mother's-- we're three generations in one house.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: Now, I don't care. Sarah Jones says, "Oh, you watch different news than I do." I watch the news. I watch the news, I read the paper. And if you're gonna tell me that these Mexican, excuse me, I'm sure there are good Mexicans out there, but when my jobs are disappearing here, when I-- you know, when we're, uh, whether it's Rust Belt or wherever you are in the country, I-I just want people to understand I am not, uh, a complaining white man who hates people.

I am proud of my heritage and my race, and you can have a Black president and, uh, and that's all fine for you to celebrate his being Black. As soon as I celebrate a white president, I'm a racist. I just, you know, I want people to understand, uh, that they don't listen to where I'm coming from, and then they want to get upset with me and tell me I'm so-- I'm-I'm, uh, superior. Well, I'll tell you what, when they came and repossessed my second truck, how superior was I?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: So why don't you just listen to where I come from? That's what I ask her to do. Just listen to me. So with pa--

Helga Davis: And it's such a big thing,

Sarah Jones: It's huge. And he can make me cry.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: I feel his pain. I understand-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -that if I woke up every morning and read a Gannett newspaper, but which most cities in this country have, and for example, recently they had a headline on their national section of their paper, the headline, when Mr. Trump settled his lawsuit, his $25 million lawsuit, uh, for fraud and all that, when he settled that their headline said, Trump sacrifices himself for the country. Okay. So if that's the news I'm reading, not from some alt-right website, that's a-- that's USA Today. That says I'm in the USA today, I should read this and trust it. If he's consuming nothing but that information, then of course this is who he is. And he feels fearful.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: And nobody has ever shown him 13th.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: He has no idea that 97% of those Black predators, "super predators," as-as you know, even politicians we're supposed to love, have said about us, nobody has said to him, "Actually, 97% of those folks are in prison because they took a plea and never got a fair trial in America."

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: If-- I'm sure that if somebody could sit him down and, you know, give him a-a-a reeducation, all of us-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -um, it would change the dynamic in this country, but we don't do that. And--

Helga Davis: And we're not going to do that.

Sarah Jones: And we're not going to do that. As, uh, somebody who creates characters, my job is to not look away, just 'cause it's painful.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: Hank breaks my heart, but I also feel deeply connected to him. I understand that he is fearful and that he comes from pain. He come-- he's coming from a place of pain and defensiveness and really abject terror, because that's what's being pumped into his living room. If you-- I sit occasionally and watch Fox on the plane-

Helga Davis: Good for you.

Sarah Jones: -for as long as I can tolerate. I do about five minutes. It's just for Hank. He needs it.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: I need to keep him primed so he can feel what he needs to feel, but, you know, the bottom line is, human beings, our reptilian brain, we have a negativity bias already.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: That's our-- just our neurochemistry, right? So if you then take that sense of like, uh-oh, a bear might come get me. That's, you know, what's left over there. We transpose that today onto, you know, Mexicans, Black people. Uh, and when I say we, I mean they, 'cause I'm a Black person. [laughs] But this idea that we should be fearful of the other and that we are in imminent danger at all times and must be vigilant. You take, uh, a fourth estate that makes money off of that and-and there's no checks and balances, no accountability, no requirement of actual facts anywhere, and this is what you get.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: That's where we are.

Helga Davis: I wanna go back to one thing though, and it's the question. You-you were doing your work.

Sarah Jones: Oh, yeah.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: I could be here for six hours with you, Helga, and never even scratch the surface. I'm like, "And then- and then another thing happened. Oh wait, lemme tell you about this other tangent real quick. Hold on." Okay. Sorry [unintelligible 00:47:06] anyway, go ahead.

Helga Davis: [laughs] You start to become known for a thing and things change and-and things get better.

Sarah Jones: Yes.

Helga Davis: And then what happens to you?

Sarah Jones: They get better and they get, um, I am-- more of me is revealed both publicly and inwardly and it's painful. So I had to look at, oh, I know how to do this so well because I needed to disappear and escape my house. And I couldn't leave my house, so I could leave my body by letting some-some other energy inhabit it for a time. And it would just sort of soothe me to go from being me, Sarah Jones, with all my baggage. You know, my family is a beautiful family and a dysfunctional family. You know, we had a lot of-- everybody had something to prove. There was a lot of high achieving while feeling deep low self-worth.

So the expression I've heard for that is like, you know, narcissist with low self-esteem, uh, the piece of crap at the center of the universe. We had a lot of those, and so they were, like, really accomplished and then you'd be like, "Wow, great job." And they'd be like, "Fuck you."

[laughter]

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: And you'd be like, "Wait, that doesn't line up." Like, you just won the such and such prize. "Get me a drink." And I was like, "Wow, this is really deep." Like, when we are not allowed to flourish without, you know, having some sense that you're not worthy. So even if you won, it was a fluke, or even if you at-attained this dream, you have to, you know, sabotage it somehow on the other side. I identify with so many artists who share their stories, thank God, because I thought I was alone in that. So basically when I got some recognition, and, you know, really all along, I have had out of body, not just because I'm in a character, but, you know, performing at the White House and-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -you know what I mean?

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: And winning a Tony, and these moments, I remember standing on these stages and thinking, "Is somebody gonna come tell me I'm not really supposed to be here?" And, um, I learned-- my characters would get me through. And at one point I would do, you know, I was trying out, like, different TV stuff and it was just too big. It was too big. I could not leave behind-- That was the feeling. If I fully allow the, uh, true wattage of my light to be released, and I say this with humility, because my understanding of humility is you neither make yourself bigger than you are nor smaller than you are.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: So I think I have the same wattage as everybody else. The question is, what kind of dimmer am I on? And I, for a long time, felt, um, almost compelled to surround myself with people or energies who would throw a bu-bushel over my light. And I had to really take stock of that as my star rose. And I mean, you know, people I had loved all my life, Meryl Streep got very involved in my career outta nowhere. If you had to-- I'm not a trained actor. This was all happenstance, and chance, and stumbling, and fumbling with love. I want-- I say that with love for myself-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -but I did not know what I was doing. I knew, you know, I went to Bryn Mawr and I knew I wanted to, um, make something good happen in the world, but I also knew that I was given to feeling like, um, m-my light wasn't, um, either available to me. And then once I realized it was available to me, and I was the one with the bushel in my hand when I had cleared out some of those, you know, bushel folks, and then realized, "Wait a minute. I'm the only one here and there is nobody else in here." And yet it got real dim all of a sudden.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: So I had to do that work of, like, looking at where, you know, as they say, I'm terrified all this time. Oh, the calls are coming from inside the house. So I had to be like, [screams] "He's in here with me, and it's me." And the good news about that is once you realize you've been the one giving yourself the beat down, not that anybody else isn't. I am not absolving, uh, you know-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: -there's plenty of issues out there.

Helga Davis: Sure.

Sarah Jones: But that's their stuff. When it's time for me to look at my stuff and where it gets in the way of my being of maximum service with my work, that's my job. I'm a worker. My job is to take whatever I've been given and make this, um, this experience of traveling with others until I die as beautiful as I can make it for myself and others, really for them first, because then they reflect all that beauty back to me, and I can get out of my head and into the collective consciousness where art is made and flourishes, right?

So, but the night I won the Tonys was one of the most miserable-- uh, Tony was one of the most miserable nights of my life, because it was so big and I couldn't hold it. And I felt like I had scrambled to the top of this place without going through Tish and all the places. You know, I was looking around at my fellow actors thinking, "They must be like, "Wow, Meryl just, like, put her on an elevator and we had to take the stairs."" [laughs]

You know, and never thinking, "Wait, w-what-what if my talent is why, you know, a-a beautiful soul like Meryl Streep saw me and saw something in me?" What if instead of, you know, seeing these aspects of my life as something with which to diminish myself, what if I see all of this as grace and a chance to just, you know, the next time I'm looking at somebody and going, "Oh, well, she married so-and-so. That's why she--" Notice three fingers pointing right back at me-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -as they say.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: If I'm pointing one out here, there are three pointing back at me. If I spot it, I got it. That's the idea. So, you know, that-- it-- I guess what I would say is it's been a-a-- an experience of finding humility very imperfectly, very messily, and with joy. I can be joyful even as I notice, "Oh my God. Look at how--" you know, um, I mean, I watch myself sometimes in large gatherings of very, very famous people. Uh, I-I'm trying to remember. I love this person as a person, but there's a part of me that's like a-a fame-seeking, you know, device. And I'm-- and I-I have to watch that in myself.

I actively practice finding a balance between, you know, telling the friends I have who are like that in the world, how much I love them, and making sure I create space so that I don't look at them as somebody who's supposed to do something for me. What can I do for them no matter how many Oscars they have on their shelf, no matter how much more money they have than I do, how can I be a loving vessel for some energy that they need?

And if I can't do that, I try-- I-I almost try not to go to those parties because I will-- I'll be in the picture, you know, "Oh, hi," and really inside, they could be telling me how much they love me and my work and all I'm thinking is, "Yeah, but you got this number of followers, and I don't," and ooh, ooh, ooh, and it's painful.

Helga Davis: And you can't take it in.

Sarah Jones: I can't take in the love because I've got this shield up that says I'm less than. And it's interesting because the distraction that you mentioned earlier, that idea of, like, somebody is bumping into me on the subway so I can do a deep dive into that instead of looking at, "Oh, my heart's aching. Oh, I'm sad. I feel vulnerable." So for me, fame-chasing is a distraction.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: Um, wanting to be skinny. This is a life-long thing for me. I have been very, very thin in my life, and I realize it's connected to deprivation. It's connected to this feeling of, you know, I need to whittle myself down to a certain size and I really, I mean, I had a problem. I had a serious problem. So, now I eat as a- [chuckles] as an act of defiance that says [crosstalk]

Helga Davis: [laughs] So we don't come in crazy.

Sarah Jones: Right.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: So we don't come in crazy.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: And also, so that, you know, that voice in my head that, uh, says, "Yoh, if I'm a size two or four, I'm a more lovable person."

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: Ooh, I--

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: Anything-- any-- uh, this sentence applies to so much. If this, then I am lovable. Anything that fits in that, that, you know, little blank spot, has to be removed from my life as best I can on a daily basis.

Helga Davis: And it's such a great lesson for everyone. You know, part of what is so wonderful for me about sitting across from people and having these conversations is this thing where everyone can find themselves in these conversations.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: Everyone.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And it doesn't matter what it is that you are doing.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: It does not matter.

Sarah Jones: Right.

Helga Davis: The principles are the same.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: And this idea that you would have this career or be this person, and so you don't have this problem--

Sarah Jones: Mm. Completely unfounded. I mean, in fact, again, I don't know why this-- we're quoting Puffy more often than Baldwin or anybody else, but mo money, mo problems definitely applied for me. And I ended up giving away a lot of money out of, um, this sense of-- a-a-and it was-- it's unconscious. I need to say that.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: And I've heard it described as unconscious family loyalty. So I come from people who either didn't have enough or if they had enough, somehow, they would find a way to, you know, disempower themselves by having it taken away. Have-- you know, frittering it away, foreclosures, whate-- There was this-- it's almost like there was this, um, need to, um, spend down power. Like, we're not allowed to be powerful. We're women, we're not allowed to be powerful. We're Black, we're not allowed to be powerful. We're from the Caribbean, we're not allowed to be powerful. We're Latinos, we're, you know, Jewish.

Helga Davis: Go down the list.

Sarah Jones: Pick your ethnicity, pick your s-status, pick your religion, whatever it is, some kind of, and I don't wanna say that every people who've ever come from persecution have this, but I have a lot of identification with people who, you know, culturally or geographically, their story is one of fleeing, um, terror or, you know, economic insecurity, whatever that may be, and PS, the United States is mostly a nation of immigrants who either got here 'cause they were trying to get something or got here because they were trying to flee something. And until we unpack all of that as people, there is this idea of sort of generational heirlooms of pain and trauma and a sense of persecution and fear that aren't even here today.

People escaped pilgrims, you know, 100 years ago, but their family members, sitting in the fanciest, most beautiful places in the world, these descendants are still feeling the reverberations of that pain. And, you know, we just go get Xanax for it today.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: So I-I'm very interested in, um, you know, how we own our power. How do we stand in our power? And for many of us as artists, there's this lopsided weird thing going on. The theater world is an underearning, uh, juggernaut for most pe-- most people and most purposes. This can be true in music, it can be true in-- and here's the funny thing, right? We create the work that moves people and then other people make all the money. And I really get to look at how I participate in that-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: -and how, you know, there are systems and gatekeepers and establishments designed to profit from the work of artists without honoring those artists in a deep way. And only a few artists really, really have, you know, economic security. Now, there's a whole bigger conversation for me, which Sell/Buy/Date looks at, um, around w-worth and value, and how as a culture, you know, we just-- we don't value life at all.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Sarah Jones: We claim we do, but, you know, if people literally, uh, the insurance company makes money off people dying. Literally. They literally make money by making sure they don't have to pay for somebody's pancreas when they need it. Any system that allows that needs to be radically overhauled, right? And so, I guess I'm interested in these intersections of who we all are as people and the descendants of our ancestors, um, who we all are in a capitalist society that is a particular form of capitalism.

Hell, yeah, make your money, take care of yourself. Like, absolutely, be paid for your labor, but for the most part, you know, somebody who makes, um, a worker for the average company in whatever it was 19-- in the 1950s, I think the CEO made something like 10 times as much as that worker. Now it's like a thousand times.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: We are- we are actively, um, perpetuating the idea that some lives are worth more than others, and that we are perfectly comfortable with that. And the truth is, because we are all connected, what we're actually doing is incrementally harming ourselves all day, every day. Those of us who are privileged and those of us who are not, because when you are enjoying that privilege, your soul is still resonating with that pain of that homeless person you stepped over.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: You think you don't see them, but then you go eat a donut. And I promise you, if you weren't hungry and you shoved that donut up your nose-

[laughter]

Sarah Jones: -you know-

Helga Davis: You're in pain.

Sarah Jones: You're in pain. And you-- we don't even know why, because we tell-- we have myths about separateness. We have myths about who we should fear, who's not deserving, who is just bad and criminal. And so that's why they're in jail. You know, these are the stories that I hope will continue to sustain me and my characters because I want-- I just wanna, um, I want us all to have access to the homecoming that we started talking about. And I know for me, I can only speak from my own experience, but other people, you know, do share.

And I love sharing like this with you. I don't think I ever talk about weight issues, and you know, that insecurity and feeling unlovable, but here I feel safe to say it, which is an indication that I'm healing from it. And I think as a society, when we can talk about our, you know, collective pain and trauma and the ways we have harmed one another and ourselves, that's a sign that we're already on a path to some healing, but when we are up to our eyebrows in social media and there's wonderful things about social media, but I know I don't always use it well. I use it to compare and despair with other people.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: Ooh, look what she's doing. Ooh, I'm not-- And then I know when my stuff's up there and I look all fancy, you know, really, I'm posting that thing and then I'm going home, getting in my pajamas and getting in the bed and not being glamorous at all. But it's this way of not having to come home, not having to really see, not having to really feel the feelings that came up when I stepped over that homeless person. If I just immediately, you know, bury my nose in my phone, all of a sudden, I don't have to feel a thing. It's a fantastic numbing agent.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Sarah Jones: And when-when I say fantastic, I guess, I mean more like, you know, um, it's-it's formidable.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: And it's something we really-- I mean, I-I look forward in a sort of-- I'm a little bit frightened of this, but I'm assuming there are gonna be studies soon about what our disengagement with ourselves and other people and our constant engagement with social media, and, you know, these projected images of people we, you know, fear and inadequacy and everything that makes you wanna run out and buy that new dress.

You know, we actually live in a society that benefits from people feeling alienated from themselves and others, 'cause then you need a shopportunity. You need retail therapy. And, you know, I'm sitting here and I-I go out there and shop and I love my clothes and I love aesthetics and beauty. Yes. And I want to look at where I choose to numb myself rather than feel what's actually here, rather than see what's actually here. And my characters help me look at what's here.

And my work does that. And I think the other piece that's tricky for me, and the characters will always help me with this, is like-like I have-- okay, so my name is Nereda. I just wanted to come for like two seconds, 'cause first of all, Helga, you are, you know what you are, everything, girl. Oh my God. Your voice, but like, also, I mean, just like everything that's happening right now is, like, so beautiful.

But you know, Sarah Jones, like, I told her, you know, I'm Domi-- I'm half Dominican, half Puerto Rican. And the thing about, like, you know, we are in this time when, you know, people, like, we are so, like, I mean, I love my kids, I love-- but I get-- uh, the stress that I'm having right now. I cannot even-- um, seriously.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Jones: Like, and I know it's Christmas, the holidays and everything like that, and people always have an explanation. Oh my God, it's Thanksgiving. Oh my God, it's-- you know, oh my God, it's whatever day. The stress, I mean, like, I-- we joke about this, but like, I have to say affirmations and stuff like that. And my favorite affirmation is three little words that always make me feel better. [foreign language]

But anyway. No, but seriously though, like, I think there's this thing of, like, we're not allowed to be vulnera-- you know, to say like, oh my God, I'm too stressed, mommy, I'm too stressed right now. I can't-- like, please take the kids, like, you know, give me my space right now because I don't think this is a sustainable-- what we're doing right now is-is not really working.

And I- and I-- that's hard to say because then people are like, "Well, that's depressing." No, it's not depressing. It's like, stop, stop what we're doing. We have to do something. And like you said, pause and feel something. And that's hard for me. You could tell, like, I mean, you know, I'm not a slow talker. I'm not a slow walker, but I'm having to, like, change myself. And I think we're capable of change, but we have to be willing to do that. It's uncomfortable.

Helga Davis: It's very uncomfortable. And I-I think that-that we have to develop the capacity, a greater capacity for discomfort, for dis-ease, so that we can- we can have that pause and we can see each other and-and then we can come home and be safe and-and tell the truth.

Sarah Jones: Mm. Isn't that deep? That if we just felt safer within ourselves, we would have a whole different foreign policy. I mean, more Americans die from hospital error than from terrorism. You have a better chance of getting killed stepping off the curb outside your apartment in New York City than you will ever have of, uh, some, you know, person with a name that scares you and a religion that scares you, harming you. And yet the-the-- you know, it's not rational. We don't live in a time of rational thinking, and yet we feel so informed because there's a 24-hour alleged news cycle.

Helga Davis: Right.

Sarah Jones: And we feel so inundated with information, um, that we have this sort of false sense of empowerment and control.

Helga Davis: Give me your hands.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: Mm. There we go.

Sarah Jones: Mm.

Helga Davis: Everywhere there is you, there is home. I'm very, very grateful for that.

Sarah Jones: Thank you, Ms. Helga.

Helga Davis: Thank you.

Sarah Jones: I-I-I just wanna tell you, we're gonna carry this through, all the way through, all of us, everybody who's listening, you, me, we got this.

Helga Davis: Yeah. Thank you. The more I think I know another person, the more I realize I know the idea of that person. One of the things that I think is important about Sarah's work is that she's really exploring what makes the other, and why his or her experience is important, not just to her, but to all of us.

She also answers with this work. The question, why do I need to care about the other? And we see through her performances how little we really do know about the other, and how in caring we actually end up caring more for ourselves. What do you do? How do you extend yourself to people outside your immediate sphere of shared ideas? You can always reach out to me at helga@wqxr.org or on Facebook.

?Speaker 5: This episode of Helga was produced by Julia Alsop and executive producer Alex Ambrose. It was mixed by Curtis McDonald with help from Hannis Brown and original music by Alex Overington. Special thanks to Cindy Kim, Lorraine Mattox, Michael [unintelligible 01:07:43] Jacqueline Cincotta, and John Chao.

 

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