Helga Davis: You wake up in the morning and then what happens? Oh, put your headphones on, Peter.

Shara Davis: Uh-uh. Oh yes, come on, put your arms around me. [laughter]

Peter: I want to hug you and hug you and hug you some more right through all these microphone cables.

Helga Davis: Go ahead.

Shara Nova: I know I'm in the right time in the right space.

Helga Davis: Do you feel that? I'm Helga Davis. Kimberly Drew falls into this category of person who is doing more than one thing. She's a writer, she's a curator, and she's an activist. She started her time in this field at the Studio Museum in Harlem, and she left her work there to start a Tumblr blog called Black Contemporary Art. She's presently the social media manager at the Met Museum, and she came in to talk to me. This is Kimberly Drew.

[music]

Helga Davis: Hi.

Kimberly Drew: Hello.

Helga Davis: [laughs]

Kimberly Drew: Has today been a long day for you?

Helga Davis: Yeah. I feel like it's always a long day, you know. There's-there's something about being in this city and one being stimulated all the time having to get from one place to another in the way that we get from one place to another. I try and do my meditation, right, so that I can go out into the street and I can be a little bit more calm and centered and focused and whatever that is. And I-I do think it is a thing, right?

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: And then you try and go up the stairs and somebody's on their phone and you can't actually get to where you're going because-- [laughs] And then the shit just starts to roll downhill and you gotta get out of the way or you gotta- you gotta get dumped on sometimes or-- not even or, I'm sure there are several other choices, but sometimes you can only make one of those two choices or you lose your mind and you become that person who is the lunatic on the subway and hates everybody and it's like, "Rah." And then I go back and I try and remember, okay, so Helga, in this moment you have a choice. Do you want to be poison or do you want to be medicine, right?

Kimberly Drew: Hmm.

Helga Davis: Like the Buddhist people say. And sometimes I-I do, I want to be poison because I don't- I don't have it in me to be-- to make a different choice. And then when I get to my next place, if I haven't made the choice that I'm most proud of, I try and make it to wherever I end up.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: So you asked me if today was a long day for me. Was it a long day for you? Say what's happening?

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. No, I-I think a lot about what a long day means.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: Uh, Wednesday's a day I go to therapy, so I just came from my therapist. And I love the consistency of that because it's always a moment to stop. Like, every Wednesday is the day that I realize how much I've been running. And I think for me, no day actually feels long until I actually stop. And that's the thing in New York that's hard, is actually finding the moment to pause 'cause we don't until you bump into that person. I'm usually the person who's on the phone. I did that this morning. I got on two wrong trains because I was using my phone on my way between point A and point B and was like, "I am the problem." I am the problem, I am the one holding myself back from these things that I've decided I need to do-

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Kimberly Drew: -because I-I don't know.

Helga Davis: 'Cause you're doing something else.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah, because I'm anchoring against something else that may not be the priority because actually the first priority is being alert and keeping my eyes up, but I feel like I need to send this email or-or else and so-- yeah, it's a really weird thing. But the-the poison-medicine thing is real concrete. I think that being deliberate about those choices is something I wish more New Yorkers did. But you're a native New Yorker, right?

Helga Davis: I am indeed. Born in Harlem Hospital, girl.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Jersey. Uh, but for me, I'm always naturally suspect of people being nice-

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: -'cause I always wonder what the motive is behind it.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: And I think on the other side of that, it makes me more deliberate about the moments when I choose to be medicine because I know that it's coming from a really intentional space and not just because. It's not-- I'm not from Virginia, you know what I mean? [laughs] Like no shade to Virginians. Virginians are the nicest people, you know, like as the, you know, the anchor for-- or the-the value judgment on that. But I think a lot about how that decision to be medicine is something that we don't make or articulate in ourselves in a way that might be-- could be more meditative and restorative.

Helga Davis: So you go to therapy on Wednesdays and is that an hour, is it--?

Kimberly Drew: 50 minutes.

Helga Davis: 50 minutes. You say that with such a big smile.

Kimberly Drew: [laughs]

Helga Davis: It's like, no, not-not even 10 more minutes.

Kimberly Drew: Not even 10 more 'cause that-that thinking about rushing, I thought about that today 'cause I was three minutes late-

Helga Davis: Huh.

Kimberly Drew: -but then I realized that I could still get my full 50 because there's still time in between. And so there's like this window for error and messiness that I really cherish, so that 50 is a really big important number. And it's the first time that I've been seeing someone on a weekly basis. I used to do every two weeks, which I realized because my days are long isn't sufficient because I'll be like, "And then I did this and then I did this." And then it's like, there's no way that this can all be held in-in the amount of time that is allotted. And so then it feels compromised.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Kimberly Drew: But now I feel like there's more of a fullness in the 50.

Helga Davis: What brought you there? Not-not the specific thing necessarily-

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -but that-that you made a decision to spend your time there.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. A number of things. Uh, this is the second time I've been in therapy in my life. The first time was because I am a habitual planner. So when I turned 23, I kind of had this internal clock and mixed with some information where I was like, okay, when people have issues of mental illness, which there's a wi-- like a long-standing history in my family, it usually arrives in your mid-20s. And so I wanted to start to build a foundation to be able to have some sort of infrastructure if the bottom should fall out.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: So I started intentionally, I reached out, and it was so funny the first few sessions because I think oftentimes the way that we're socialized around therapy is that something has to be absolutely wrong. You have to be unpacking some sort of trauma, you know, opening some box that you didn't know needed to be opened. And I arrived and was just like, "I just wanna tell someone all of the things. I want to build this relationship so that should something go wrong, that you already know where I'm at foundationally so that you actually see what I believe to be wellness and then it can be judged against whatever else I bring into this space." And then I was seeing that person for just over a year and I stopped seeing them. And now I'm back again because in between my two therapists, the bottom did kind of fall out for me.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: Uh, and it was a real moment of having to be radically honest with myself, uh, because a lot of my friends had just assumed I was still seeing someone, but also saw that something was up. And so being-being able to say, okay, not only am I not being transparent with the people in my life about what's going on with me, but I also need to additionally take a level of action around getting myself to be more healthy and to build in these-these ways of care that are really just necessary for a full life outside of some-something really going down. Um, so for me, this-this time feels more intentional and more necessary and critical.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Kimberly Drew: So the 50 now is-- like has a particular weight. And every week I don't wanna go, and every week I leave and I'm so glad I went. And it's just talk therapy. So it's just an opportunity to just totally unload all of the things in one place or all the things I choose to unload in one place-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: -really specifically. It took me a long time to find the person that I'm seeing now. And that research process also was really affirming too, um, like as a- as a reminder of, uh, the ways in which we choose the people in our lives, especially because it's a professional relationship and one that happens within all these other systems around healthcare and yada yada. So it wasn't a decision I made lightly, um, but it's one I feel really fortunate that I could make because of the liberties that I have in terms of having healthcare for work and stuff like that.

But I talk often about therapy with people because I just love it. I knew it was something that I would love and I had my own apprehensions about it, but I was never a child who was put in it. My parents were divorced when I was fairly young, but that wasn't a thought of theirs to-to put me in some sort of like therapy thing. Um, so being an adult and making that decision was one of the core markers in my life now as I look at it and I'm like, "Okay, this is a good, mature thing, a decision that I don't regret at all."

Helga Davis: What do you love about it?

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. Uh, one, I love it as a consistent thing like a- like a beat on the metronome or like the life that I lead and having a full-time job and then doing all these other extracurricular things. There's so many things I have to do or I feel like I have to do on a consistent basis and this one is so divinely for myself, where it feels like an obligation in some ways, but it is something that is so unabashedly self-serving, but also makes me a better member of my community at the same time. So it's like this-this really full gesture once a week.

Helga Davis: You said the life that you lead.

Kimberly Drew: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: I feel like we-we started in the middle of something because we started talking about our days. Talk a little bit about what that life is.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. So many things.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: Uh, first and foremost, I work in the art world and I am a social media manager really invested in bringing art to as many people as I can, uh, through digital communications. And that bleeds into a lot of other work. So I lecture, uh, to try to talk to younger people as a gesture of, one, presenting the possibility of the work that I do because when I was in school, being a social media manager was not a thing or was not a thing in the way that it is now. And then additionally, being able to show them what being a Black woman in the art world looks like is something that I'm really invested in as a- as a gesture. And then outside of that, I'm working on a book project. What else do I do?

Helga Davis: [laughs].

Kimberly Drew: And then like here and there, I just, like, show up and do shit. Like I-I-I mean, any friend who's doing a show, I try to go to. Um, I try to spend a lot of time with my family. I grew up in New Jersey. And so my family's fairly close, um, close by proximity-wise, but then also we're pretty tight-knit. So, the life I lead is trying my damnedest to be [chuckles] the best friend, the best daughter, or the best coworker. Um, and it's a challenge I take on every day, especially so thinking about, like, social media too, there's so much labor involved in it-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: -especially doing it professionally because the internet doesn't turn off in the same way that being a listener is something that is an act of choice every day. Is a muscle that you flex. And then also too is being able to hold the conversation in the way that you have is, like, elegant almost. 'Cause like for me, I'm so used to, like, a very, like, and then you ask a question and then I say, and then- and then and-and being able to totally, you would just like, we were, like, waltzing away from [laughter] traditional conversational structure or interview structure. And I'm like, "Okay, right." I can, you know, relax and not have to do this thing in this way, even though that's my, like, go-to comfort blanket way of engaging.

Helga Davis: Is it just visual arts that you feel most connected to?

Kimberly Drew: I think in my personal consumption, I love photography.

Helga Davis: Huh.

Kimberly Drew: And it's interesting 'cause it took me a while to realize it, but I was like, "Oh, I'm really drawn to this particular medium."

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: And I think it's because the only art class that I've ever enjoyed was ph-- a-a dark room photography class that I only took because I was afraid of the dark [laughter] and decided that that was how I was gonna get over my fear.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: It is-- it was not a good idea-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: -but I did just barely class the class. Um, I forgot how time-consuming it was and I put myself through college so I was working. So I love photography the most, but in terms of the things that I like to push around the internet, anything. Oh, the other day I found this syllabus that, uh, NYU Skirball created for their programming for the fall. I was like, "Oh, this is dope," 'cause they basically, like, went down their calendar and provided supplemental materials for all the people. And I was like, "This is jackpot right here."

So there's not real-- I don't really discriminate in that way when it comes to an information share. I'm all about it, but when it comes down to myself and the things that I hold dear, it's probably-- yeah, it's definitely photography in terms of, like, digital content and then, like, things I actually have materialized for myself, some, like, small drawings from Black women artists. I've been, like, every time I get like two pennies striped together, I'm like, "That. [laughs] I'd like that, please."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. Black women in art. What did that even mean-

Kimberly Drew: Mm, mm.

Helga Davis: -to you as a- as a young person and what person or what things did you see or experience that helped you understand that this is where you wanted to be? Because it's not an obvious choice for us still.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. It makes me think a lot about my friends who are musicians like yourself. When you ask a musician when did they become a musician, there's not really a start-stop time, right? It's like, so a lot of people are socializing to music because they come from musical families or, you know, there's a rhythm that's always been a part of-- that's just a rhythm that's part of life, right, that- [inaudible 00:13:57] [crosstalk]

Helga Davis: Or they have a teacher.

Kimberly Drew: Right. Or they have a teacher. Right, right. Of course. And for me, it was more of, um, it was always there. Um, my family always was invested in creativity first. I was not raised in a family that was like, "Be a doctor." They were just really invested in me being the most full version of myself. So, there was first a permission to choose what I wanted, which is really the foundation for, you know, the rest of it. Um, I don't think if-if I didn't have that foundational self-determination kind of factor, then none of the rest of it would've been possible. But additionally, when I was trying to conceptualize the spaces that I wanted to be in, I always returned to the museum space.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Kimberly Drew: I crave silence and I feel like museums, especially museums have always been a space where I could be as internal as I needed to be, but still amongst others, you know, not in a way that when you're riding the subway and you happen to not be looking at your phone, you know. There's this consistency in the ways in which people move in-in art spaces. And, of course, that's becoming more radical, which I'm really invested in as well, but when I was conceptualizing as a young person, what it looked like, it was- it was always that. And my family, especially my father's side of the family, when we would gather, we would go to museums. And so it was also a space that I always felt that I had ownership over, that I felt was also a part of my way that I understood family, you know.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: A way that I understood a gathering space for my people, like, very specifically my people. And so, when it came down to what am I gonna do when I grow up, I had many, many thoughts. I was studying math when I first got to college 'cause I thought I wanted to be pre-med, and then I was an engineer for a time, and then I arrived in an art history class and realized that that was how my brain was hardwired. And all of these lines were connected where I realized that, okay, my family has always been really invested in creativity. My aunt is an artist.

There's, um, a poster for Aljira Gallery which is in Newark in her office, where I'm like, "Not only did I have proximity to a Black art world my entire life, but, like, very specific, like, very, very, very proximate." But until you learn the vocabularies of those things, because, of course, it is an opaque world, it doesn't mean anything. Um, and so, for me, right now, I feel a duty to be able to-- or not a duty, but I like being able to provide people with those markers, being able to provide people with a vocabulary through which they can begin to see themselves in the arts. It doesn't have to be as hard of work as perhaps it's been presented, especially to marginalized people.

Helga Davis: You work with kids a lot?

Kimberly Drew: No. Yeah. No, I wish that I was a person who could. It's a goal of mine, but I work a lot with teens.

Helga Davis: Okay. I'm curious about teenage people.

Kimberly Drew: Mm-hmm. [chuckles].

Helga Davis: Yeah. Big sigh.

Kimberly Drew: [chuckles].

Helga Davis: This is the place in almost every community that my heart is broken.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: And particularly in-in our community, whatever hour is.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: And here's- here's how I'm gonna say it. So, today, I got on the train.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Four African American women, one African American man. They were probably, I would say 16, 17. They're making a lot of noise. They have a lot of energy. Okay. And as I enter their space, the young man says to one of the women, "Tell her that if she ever does that again, I'm gonna smack the shit outta her." And then so the girl that he tells that to, she's sitting right there, but it's a big show.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: And so the girl that he says that to actually repeats it. And then, one of the other girls who was standing up starts the say, "Look the back of my balls." [chuckles] And I'm-I'm like, "What's going on right now?" Really? What's going on? And then he-he says a thing that completely shocks me. [laughs]. He says, "Yeah, y'all know like that space, like where the back of my balls is and my asses that got the most sweat glands, yo." [laughter]. It's like, "Well, you know that?" [laughs].

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: So what's all the rest of this? And then I look at what I do and I really do try to understand what my place is, what my role is, what my responsibility is. What-what can I do with that ? And maybe that's the wrong question. Maybe there's nothing I can do with that. And maybe that's-that's our cultural collateral damage. Maybe it's not my responsibility, but there's some part of me that doesn't quite believe that and I don't know what to do. And we talk about art, right?

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: And-and working with people and I work in all of these spaces and I don't know what to do. You just came from the therapist. Tell me about those [inaudible 00:19:38] [laughs]

Kimberly Drew: Yes. Let-let-let's unpack this. I'm fascinated by teenage people right now, uh, especially with the advent of social media because I think a lot about the many iterations of myself that came to be in that time and how none of them were complete, how none of them really needed an audience, how some of them really needed an audience, uh, and how deeply I judge myself in relationship to what I believed I should be. And so when I think about this scenario, and when I think about the teens that I encounter in the museum space., I think about how I can challenge myself not to think about what they should be doing.

Um, how I can acknowledge that even behavior that might be read as misbehaving comes from somewhere. How if I held myself to my litmus at 14, how flawed I would be at 27? So I-I think so much about how much discovery happens in that moment. And so I don't think that there's a lot that you can necessarily do in exact moments in interactions. There's so many ways in which you radiate qualities that many young people would be so lucky to encounter. Um, and so for me, when I think about the ways in which I work with teens, I think more about being a possibility model than saying, "Do these things this way," because I know my way is not the right way.

Helga Davis: Right. I-- and I know that too.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: In a very profound way. And that I sat there and was silent and just tried to hold space.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: A different space. I mean, I-- for sure inside me, in my brain, my brain was saying, "What do I do about this?"

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: But in my physical presence with them, I didn't say anything.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: And I know it's not- it's not my place to fix or demand that they be different than who they are. It's one of the things that I believe the most. It's one of the things that I-I hate the most, right? That's part of my-my tension with my mother even to this day. She wants to know why I couldn't just be like-- and you can fill in that blank any number of ways.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: So I understand that I'm not interested in making that pain again.

Kimberly Drew: Mm. Mm.

Helga Davis: And at the same time, I think that this point that you're making is that-that to understand that it is a moment of-of growth and of development and-and that you just have to be the person you are and be that.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: And that-that-that's enough in a lot of cases, even if it may not feel that way.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. I think it's a difficult judgment call. I think that-- I don't know, there's so much that can be loaded in those moments. I mean, especially when there's these moments of, and I- and I don't wanna use misbehaving as a way to refer to that-- to the behavior, but when there's a moment that there's a choreography that seems offbeat to the way that perhaps we live our lives, or when there's a word or phrasing that feels uncomfortable and unsettling, I think that's something to identify as something that is our own.

Helga Davis: Absolutely.

Kimberly Drew: Uh, but then also acknowledging that, like you were articulating, that it is a moment in time. And so perhaps in the moment she may have repeated what he'd said, but there's a way that she can also find agency in that. And then I think that that agency is found in others. I think about how-- um, I don't know. I feel like there's a responsibility on us as people who are older than the teens in this moment, to just continue to be committed to providing better examples. And not as like the surefire examples, but if you wanted another option-

Helga Davis: [laughs]

Kimberly Drew: -these are some of the micro changes that you could take.

Helga Davis: Uh-huh.

Kimberly Drew: Because for me, I think so much about how growing from being a teen to right now, there's so many people that I stole little things from. And a lot of the work that I do through social media now is thinking about how I can thrust those people in front of other people and say, you know, this person exists in this way and-and this is how they define success for themselves. And this person who lives in this place, this is how they define success for themselves. And whatever sticks with you, sticks with you. I did an interview, uh, two weeks ago and they were asking me about mentors.

And I-I've never exactly had a one-to-one mentor relationship, but I call many people mentors because they're the people that I've observed and taken the most from. And thinking about how that relationship of observation is something that's really critical and can't be understated. Uh, that's what I think about in that moment where I'm like, okay, perhaps there's an-- a moment or like, you know, on the subway you watch people. It's like-- it could very well happen that the fourth girl in that group saw someone self-possessed and quiet and she had a curiosity about you. And maybe there's-- maybe you had a tote bag that was for some literary group. You know, like, who knows?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: But there's so many ways in which we can signify different possibilities for young people that happen totally outside of what we decided about them. And they can make their own decisions about us. But for me, I've been really deeply obsessed with-- especially with the-the teen group of this moment, because there've been so many ways in which we've predetermined what they're doing and how they're doing it. Oh, the teens love social media. Not all the teens love social media. I know so many 13-year-old Luddites, and they're fascinating-

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Kimberly Drew: -because not only are you, you know, outside of this kind of curve that everybody's associated you with, but you made a deliberate choice not to be on these things when they preexist you or they preexist your way of understanding or connecting with people. It's like those stories, those-those micro-moments, and that privileging of space and holding space for those people and understanding that there can be a floor made for them. That I think is a critical work in what we can do for that age group. And I think it-it doesn't happen enough.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: We're so invest-- and I think it happens generationally, and it's a- it's a mistake that we all keep making over and over again where we just decide what a group needs. And I think at a very basic human level, what everybody needs is the opportunity to learn and grow.

Helga Davis: How does social media help bring art to people?

Kimberly Drew: I love that question phrase that way. Uh, I think that social media is a tool for gesturing to things. Social media is a tool for saying this is what's going on over here. This is what's going on over there. It's a way for people to have a very public and private relationship to information. And so for me personally, when I think about the way in which art can serve, uh, via social media, I think about it as an opportunity for people to build their artillery of things that they know about art in a space that allows them to make their own value judgments in a way that's outside of an-- a part-- like a historically elitist structure.

I think a lot about the difference between say, the art of food and visual arts, where if I feed you a dish and you don't like how it tastes, you can say that dish sucked and you trust your taste buds. You trust the way that your body chemically has responded to something. But if I were to show you a painting, there's a hesitation in being able to say exactly how you feel or relate to it-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: -um, because of the ways in which we're socialized around the value of these things. And I think that social media enables us to have a more casual encounter, of course, like with respect to not everybody having internet. Right? Um, but I've been running a blog called Black Contemporary Art since 2011. And one of the reasons why I really stayed committed to the work on it was because I like the idea that you could have a mini archive of black artists in your pocket. That you could open the blog and every day learn a new something.

And there was one destination that was really explicitly and unapologetically invested in purveying these-these artists and these images. So I think that social media for that-- for art in that way is really exceptional. That you can, you know, have access to this essay and take all the time you want to read it or not read it or save it somewhere, but that it provides the opportunity for an encounter and an invitation into a world that doesn't hand out a lot of invitations, even though art is all around us. You know, I think a lot about architecture and how buildings are literally everywhere.

But we don't stop to look, we don't stop to think about these different accents or moments or this is this, you know, from this era or this time. We-we grow almost numb to being able to stop and pause and-and really bask in the glory of-of artistry. And I think that it happens within the social media sphere as well. It's like you're inundated with so much information, but when given the privilege of time, it can be an opportunity for-for intense, expansive interaction. I don't even wanna see education,-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: -but more just like brushing up against stuff.

Helga Davis: But even that, you make the choice to use that word, right? Interaction versus education. It closes a kind of chasm and gives permission to a lot more people.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. I love it. I love it for that because it's hard work on the other side. Um, writing the language, trying to keep it scholarly, but also accessible. But, oh, it's so good and so satisfying. [laughter] It's so good 'cause when you get it right, you get it right, you know? Um, I try to spend at least 80% of the day thinking about other people and-and ways to better serve a public. I did a panel about activism. And during the conversation, the phrase take a stand kept coming up. And I was like, "We can't keep saying take a stand, because not everybody can stand. And that doesn't mean that they can't be a part of the-"

Helga Davis: Right.

Kimberly Drew: "-the movement."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: Um, so being a wordsmith, I'm gonna call myself that. um, that's really like the how I live my life is communicating. And you too. I mean, watching you interview even being interviewed, having that honor.

Helga Davis: But we're-we're, but that's-that's another thing too. Like this is a place where I was very deliberate-

Kimberly Drew: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -about the fact that I wasn't going to interview people that I wasn't interested in that.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: But that I was interested in conversation because there are plenty of platforms and places for people to talk about their books or their movies or their latest this or that. But there aren't a lot of spaces where people are going to come in and say, "Has it been a long day for you?" "Yes, and here's why and here's how, and here's what happened on the subway." And I feel like we-we learn so much more about the other and about ourselves in that conversation. Uh, yeah, I can go online and read someone else's review of someone else's book or so--

Kimberly Drew: Right.

Helga Davis: Right? But this thing is really about my curiosity about the people who sit here with me and-and speak. People that I see all the time, people who are my colleagues, my friends, my contemporaries, my ride and dies. [laughter] Because we're-we're running, we're writing, we're thinking, we're reading we need silence, we don't get a chance to just sit and look at each other somewhere-

Kimberly Drew: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -and say, "Hey, what are you thinking about? How are you feeling?"

Kimberly Drew: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And so that's why it's so great that-that you're here.

Kimberly Drew: I am curious about-- Uh, I like that you- that you've framed it in this way of conversation as opposed to interview. But I do also have some curiosities about how you draw the line. Because I think it's-it's a hard one. Or do you- do you see it as a hard line between the two things? And then also in what ways can you keep them-- keep the worlds of like work and pleasure separate in conversation? You know what I'm saying? Because I feel like I'm interviewing people constantly, even when it's conversational, and so it was interesting that you articulated that there was a-a difference between the two.

Helga Davis: I think just using the word conversation already makes it different.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: So in me, when I come in here, I'm coming in to have a conversation. I'm not coming here to interview you.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: And it may seem like semantics, but it-it really isn't. It's a different thing. And the fact of the matter is I love talking to people. I will talk to anybody anywhere because I'm curious about who my neighbors are. I'm curious about those moments when I've made up my mind about who that person is and then I sit next to them and I have some conversation with them and I get to see how completely wrong I am or how completely right I am or what an idiot I am. And I love challenging myself in that way and finding myself in every person I meet and hopefully, them finding some part of themselves in me.

Kimberly Drew: Mm. I love that. I-I talked to some friends about how we find home in each other and it's everything like-

Helga Davis: Yes, everything.

Kimberly Drew: Oh, my goodness. And it's not about real estate because I think that sometimes that can happen too when you talk to someone and you're like-- I was talking to someone earlier and I had this moment where I was like-- I am maturing because I exited a bad energy conversation because I was just like, "This person's talking too much." And then I ended up in between two people who were talking too much and I just exited at a really awkward time in the conversation. I was just like, "You guys are trying to have a vulnerable moment but you're not really listening and I don't want to be a part of this anymore, um."

Helga Davis: Self-care.

Kimberly Drew: Self-care, but that real estate thing, um, is really, really, really truly significant.

Helga Davis: Where are your people from?

Kimberly Drew: So my mother is originally from Ohio and my father's family has been in New Jersey for a few generations but before that was in Missouri.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Kimberly Drew: But I was raised in New Jersey with both my parents and they both still live there.

Helga Davis: Wow.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Even that, you know, I feel like we could have an entire conversation around what was it like to grow up to be an African-American woman and grow up with both of your parents because I know so few.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. I have the most incredible parents.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Kimberly Drew: And I don't get enough opportunities to talk to people about them. I've introduced all my friends to them and their mainstays, uh, and they're hilarious and almost to a point where I'm like, "You can't meet them because you'll like them more than me." But I-I feel super fortunate to have them and so greedy about it, um--

Helga Davis: Why are they so amazing?

Kimberly Drew: Well, my mother in particular is-- I mean all the women in my family are hard-headed. It's like the easiest descriptor to map us all together. Like, you know, Maxine Waters "reclaiming my time." That's a family politic. Uh, and so I come from a line of women who are very invested in having things their way and if it doesn't go their way, then we'll do it for ourselves. And that kind of self-starter spirit is something that I totally credit to my mother.

And the deep overachieving thing happens on both sides but my mom in particular, the overachieving and generosity, this blind just giving and commitment it-it's just-- I don't know, it's bigger than a desire or a responsibility. And it's so funny because when I was growing up it was often something that was I punished for too, where she'd be like, "You gave your lunch away to someone. You needed to eat your lunch." But I'm like, "This person was hungry," or like, you know. And I-I challenged her on that later too but she's like, "I just didn't want people to take advantage of you."

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: I was like, "But I literally watch you give all of your things away. So what do you expect? Like what kind of child did you think you were raising?" My father really taught me about education. He's one of the smartest people that I know and has not had a ton of formal education. It was always imperative that I was reading, it was always imperative that I was taking in information and very deliberately on my own time, uh, and I really am thankful for that. We would always go to the library, we would always read.

He-he always kind of created space for me to-to learn on my own pace. I was always a slow reader when I was growing up. I still am a slow reader now. But that ability to live in that pace was something that I inherited from my father. Um, and so having both of them in this, you know, this giving mode and this space holding mode is something that I feel really fortunate for and has been part of the architecture of how I've-I've come to model myself as an adult as well. So I'm an only child.

My parents split up and so I had two single-parent experiences which was great because they also kind of raised me to also be their child friend, a confidant. And so there was not-- And, you know, my other family members feel how they feel about it but there was never like grown folks business versus what I could know and so I always really respected and appreciated that too. And that's also to-to circle back to the conversation about teens where it's like you got to give them the room to figure out what their language is.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: Give them the room to bump up against some things. Yeah.

Helga Davis: Against you.

Kimberly Drew: Right. Right. [laughter]

Kimberly Drew: Maybe not you because then you're like, "All right, look, these are my rules for my body."

Helga Davis: Against you also.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: I feel like I, you know, sometimes I can wake up and I say, "Yes, I believe this." And then life will bring me the exact opposite experience-

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: -as if it's saying, "Yeah, you really believe this?" I mean one of the things that I'm talking about all the time is how we have to have all of ourselves. We-we must. And so I get down in the subway next to these young people and where is that sentiment in me when I'm listening to them or I'm watching them behave in a way that I feel is not good for them? Are they still allowed to have all of themselves on a good day? The answer to that is absolutely, and I want to be present for that. And it just turns out that even on the day when I don't feel like it, it still must be true, right? That-that they are indeed allowed. I don't have to like it or agree with it, but they're allowed.

And to see how that trickles into the rest of the day because what I also understand from my own therapy is that my inability to-to be with them in whatever way in that process, uh, means that I'm not that way with myself either, and that it really does start there. There's some impatience, uh, that I have toward myself. There's some thinking that I should be another way or doing a different thing and if I can't tolerate that in myself, I obviously can't tolerate it in someone else. And so then I have to come full circle and then I can sit here with you and say, "Oh, wow. I-I get that now."

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: I get why it's important for me in that moment to just be quiet but to still be there. So I didn't get up and move somewhere else.

Helga Davis: I did sit there and wait for it to be whatever it was going to be, which is another one of those things, right? That we-we don't want-- we so don't want to be uncomfortable or, uh, put out in any way-

Kimberly Drew: But I do th-- [crosstalk]

Helga Davis: -too often.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. I do think that those are two different things though, cause I think a lot about in that moment, comfort and being put out as- as two different things. Because being put out is personal. Um, thinking about, uh, people pushing into your body.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: Um, that is something that you reserve for yourself and that's a decision that you're making on your own for yourself and your own body. But I do think that there's something about comfort and the presence of a gaze. Um, uh, or a kind of societal expectation that then you bring into that moment that isn't just about Helga and Helga's body, but it's about how other people may be observing these teens that you feel some kinship towards. And so then that's that protective kind of force that you feel. But I always try to question where's that coming from?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: I've been really keen on-on trying to find the spaces in which I can feel most messy., um, and-and giving other people permission for that too. I mean, like, nobody's got it going on like that in the way that we think they do. That was the biggest, most amazing lesson that I've learned in the last few years because I was so invested in perfection and so observant of the people that I felt were examples of that. And the closer that I got to them, the more I realized that, that-that's personally not their goal.

'Cause they're older and mature enough to know that it's not a possibility, right? Where they're just like, "I gave up on wa-waking up at 5:00 AM." Like, "I just don't do that." You know? Um, but then additionally, there's so much energy that I could put into this decision on who I should be, how I should be, and where is any of that coming from. Because if it's a deep-seated desire to be the best Kimberly, Sure. You know, or if it's this deep-seated desire to in some way impress someone else, like, I don't have time and it will not stick. It won't stick.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: And so I think that, that-that's kind of the difference between comfortable and-and being put out where there's that moment when your heart just like-- but it's like, "What-what is making me feel this way? What things--?" I mean, you even said it like, in what ways can I challenge myself to better think about where it's coming from?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: Because some of those things are just bigger than us and things that we will continue to have to bear the weight of and unpack and rearrange and--

Helga Davis: And work with.

Kimberly Drew: And work with. Right.

Helga Davis: And be with.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Is there a thing that you do every day that you feel every person can do that brings you closer to the person you wanna be?

Kimberly Drew: Drink water. [chuckles] Uh, in a very serious way. Cause I just started drinking water. I feel like a crazy person talking about this way, but thinking about the pause, cause you can't be doing a lot of stuff when you stop to-to fill yourself. Um, and it can be something that doesn't have to be as performative as eating a meal, but these little pauses. That for me is the consistent thing that I do every day to keep the beat. One of my friends, Imani Uzuri talks to me when I was really going through it.

She was talking to me about water rituals and she was encouraging me to just like take water and sprinkle it on my head every morning and just let the water guide where I was going every day. And so I think a lot about that in-in the practice of drinking water every day where I- in this moment of pausing where I can't speak. I'm not running because I'll spill all over myself. You know, there's this way in which it totally stops you and then also fills you and is so deeply important to like a life source. So that's something that I-I think everyone should do. It's a simple step, but one that I think is really, really, for me was profound. What about you? What do you think?

Helga Davis: No, that's-that's so great. I sit.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: I--

Kimberly Drew: Do you meditate?

Helga Davis: I do. I don't even call it that. I literally sit. I light a candle, I sit on a cushion, and I look at it.

Kimberly Drew: Mm.

Helga Davis: For half an hour. Sometimes I do it for longer. After that, uh, I write a page, one page in my journal and I try and read something helpful. But I also added water to this morning thing not so long ago. And I don't even know why, I just did it. I pour the water, I drink it, and then I start my clock.

Kimberly Drew: I love it. I went to see, uh, Reiki healer. And in the session that I had, we did chanting, like letting your-your voice do what it wants to do. I think especially in a city like New York, and then the ways in which it demands us to be particularly articulate. It's like if we wanna get something out of the city, you better know how to ask for it. And so I think that chanting and just like nonsensical noise for yourself is something that I want to bring more into my-my day-to-day practice.

Helga Davis: So when you say chanting, do you-- what do you do?

Kimberly Drew: Literally, it was in that session, it was just letting noise come out.

Helga Davis: Whatever sound wanted to come out, come out.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. Um--

Helga Davis: So it's not singing? It's not-- Okay.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah. It's one of those things where like, I don't mean to like generalize, but like, you know, Black people have rhythm. You know, it's like I was just thinking about like how I was so tempted to like sing a song or to like match with some sort of like melody of some sort. But it really was just allowing the sound to come out. I went to see the healer because I was feeling really congested creatively. It was before I started seeing my therapist, but also was having a really difficult time articulating-

Helga Davis: Mm.

Kimberly Drew: -ideas that fe-- that I felt proud of creatively. My brain got into really like nuts and bolts kind of, "This goes with this," and thinking way too practically. And the chanting was what she had suggested as the remedy. But there was something about-- like, I was also swaying and just kind of letting energy be released from my body. And that felt really supremely powerful.

Helga Davis: And it is about giving ourselves permission to have our voices in whatever way from the smallest gestures to the most grand.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Right?

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: It's so, so, so huge. Do you have anything that you've written you wanna share? Just something, I don't know what.

Kimberly Drew: Hmm. I have been wanting to write more for myself.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: And I haven't quite done it successfully.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Drew: But I did go to Cape Town in September, which was my first time visiting the continent. And I took really diligent notes on the way back. And not in like a, "These are the 10 things to do in this city," thing. Um, because I know a lot of people who do that really effectively and shout out to them because they send me their lease. But I wrote very specifically about being in an art space that was predominantly Black and what that felt like.

Helga Davis: Do you have it here?

Kimberly Drew: I don't, but--

Helga Davis: Do you remember it?

Kimberly Drew: I do remember it. Um, I went--

Helga Davis: Will you share?

Kimberly Drew: Yeah, of course. I went to, uh, a cocktail for the opening of the contemporary art museum there. And I wasn't invited to the cocktail, which is not the first time I've gone to a party I wasn't invited to. But walking into the room and-and watching people lay on the couches of this exquisite space, watching the ways in which black bodies moved through that cocktail was so different than anything I'd ever seen. I think that moment is something that's going to be impressed upon my spirit for a really long time.

And it was brilliant because I was the friend that I crashed with, he was invited, I wasn't. And he was just like, "This is my guest." And it was great. But I was- I was starting to articulate it to him and he was like, "You need to write it down." And so that was really the fullness of the moment was, one, being in that space and watching the way that people moved and, you know, all of the two cheek kisses with these brown faces rubbing up against each other. And-- but like not having that feeling of-of not being invited into a space.

Everyone in the room I think felt welcome and empowered and cosmopolitan. And it was just-- it was so luscious. Uh, and then to have that quiet moment with a friend who said, "Write it down." I never thought I was gonna leave the country. I never thought that the levels of success that I've been able to achieve and like the many, many more goals I have, I don't always think in, like, confidence first. Sometimes I bump into opportunities, sometimes that kind of futz my way through things. And being in that moment and having someone anchor it and acknowledge it as significant and historic if only to me, but that, "That still needed to be recorded," was dope.

And so when I was flying back, I just kind of wrote down day by day the things that I did. Um, and especially in Cape Town of all cities, because it is such a loaded place. When I was there, I was staying in a really posh resort, which I was really into, um, [laughs] because I'm like not so secretly bougie. Um, but then also being able to go out to the townships on that trip because I had a friend who was really generous with time and-and-and rode out with me and showed me all of them. And was talking about what it meant to grow up there, being a child of the '90s, and teaching me what Ubuntu meant and like taking me to the-the breeze spa. And just, it was exactly the way that I like to encounter spaces where I can see, you know, some of the highest, most posh and then also the spaces that perhaps don't-- aren't well-moneyed in that way, but then also being taken hand in hand to see the robustness of a culture. 'Cause I think sometimes in certain cities, especially in the states, you'll roll through certain neighborhoods and you'll know that that is like the low-income neighborhood, but actually getting a hand-in-hand.

And this is this store and this is why it's significant, and this is this person, and this is why it's significant. Like that is, you know, what I journaled about where it's-it's not just like, "Oh, there were townships and there were passport offices, and during the time of--" It's like almost everywhere in Cape Town, you can see Tabletop Mountain. Like this, like wondrous majestic thing. And then also being able to see that majestic beauty in everything from the cocktail party to, you know, the cookout spot.

Helga Davis: Do you feel responsible to someone or to something?

Kimberly Drew: I think my-my instinctual answer is that we all do and should. And that's why the Cape Town story was really great having a friend say, "Record it." I think for me personally, yes, I believe in the things that I'm doing as historic. But that has nothing to do with the ways in which other people qualify it. It's just because I know every day can be a long day. Most times is a long day, right? Um, and being able to have the record of those things, um, and being able to look back and-and be proud of past iterations of myself is something I take really seriously.

Helga Davis: There's-there's a thing that needs to happen right here, right now.

Kimberly Drew: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And that's what we're interested in. That's-that's what we came to do-- to do that thing.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: And so maybe we've done it.

Kimberly Drew: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Thank you, my love.

Kimberly Drew: Thank you.

[music]

Helga Davis: You can always read her Tumblr blog, Black Contemporary Art. She's also the social media manager at the Met, and she's on Instagram @museummammy. She is writer, curator, and activist. Kimberly Drew. I'm Helga Davis. You can find me at Facebook at Helga Davis, and thanks for listening.

[music]

Speaker: This episode of Helga was edited by Krystal Hawes with help and mastering by Irene Trudeau and original music by Alex Overington. New Sound senior producers Alex Ambrose. To learn more about New Sounds and to discover handpicked genre-free music 24/, visit our website at newsounds.org.

[00:52:34] [END OF AUDIO]

 

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