[00:00:00] Jenna Flanagan: Somebody once told me the best story you can tell is the one that you never had told that you needed, and so that's kind of been my North Star lately, is like, what was the story that I needed, like, when I was 12, when I was 20, when I was 30. 

[00:00:20] Helga: I'm Helga Davis, and welcome to my show of fearless conversations that reveal the extraordinary in all of us.

[00:00:29] My guest today is journalist Jenna Flanagan. You may know her as a past contributing reporter for WNYC's All Things Considered, or as the former host of PBS's Metro Focus. Throughout her career, Jenna has been a champion for the uncomfortable, but necessary conversations that move us forward as a community.

[00:00:53] In this conversation, we talk about why local news is so essential, The legacy and lineage of black women in the media and the secret to getting a great story out of just about anyone.

[00:01:10] Jenna's here! I'm so excited that you're so excited! You know, sometimes it, it weirds people out when you're too excited. Although, I feel like this every, every time. Oh my god! 

[00:01:22] Yeah, because 

[00:01:24] Helga: Yeah. Especially if it's not someone I know, or if it's a person who hasn't spoken, they blah de blah de blah. They don't know what they're getting into.

[00:01:34] Exactly. So they feel like they're getting into something, and then they don't know what it is, and then they realize I'm harmless. 

[00:01:40] Jenna Flanagan: Oh my god. Okay, so this is one of the things I was trying to explain to somebody, was that this is the one part of Um, my career, my path, my life right now that doesn't even feel like work, so it doesn't phase me at all.

[00:01:53] Helga:  Like, I love this stuff. It's, it's very, very different. And I was thinking about you this morning because I think there are five things that are the most stressful things or something in your life. One of them is getting married. One of them is having a baby. One of them is death, one is a health thing, and what's the other one?

[00:02:17] Uh, oh, big changes, like moving changes. Yeah, and so I was laughing because I was speaking to one of my dearest, dearest, dearest people and I was saying, oh, because I have three out of the five of those happening right now. Oh my goodness. And so he sent me, uh, this poem. Life will break you. Nobody can protect you from that.

[00:02:44] And being alone won't either. For solitude will also break you with its yearning. You have to love. You have to feel. It is the reason you are here on earth. You have to risk your heart. You are here to be swallowed up, and when it happens that you are broken, or betrayed, or left, or hurt, or death brushes too near, let yourself sit by an apple tree and listen to the apples falling all around you in heaps, wasting their sweetness.

[00:03:18] Tell yourself, That you tasted as many as you could. Oh my goodness. So this is a poem by Louise Erdrich. So I've just read you this beautiful and hard poem. Yeah. And we're talking about change. We're talking about big dramatic changes. We're talking about five things that are most stressful in a person's life.

[00:03:49] And so I wonder Where you are in any of that, or all of that. 

[00:03:57] Jenna Flanagan: Oh, well, I mean, definitely big change. Um, I'm in the midst of a career change right now. Um, was, uh, a bit of a surprise. And so, there's everything I think that comes along with that. Um, it's,, jarring. And,, it can throw you off. I do want to be clear that I think a lot of us, regardless of how happy we are with whatever job we may have, um, there is a level of comfort and reliability.

[00:04:27] Jenna Flanagan: Yes. That's there. Mm hmm. And when that It's suddenly gone. Um, it's as if the ground has literally shifted beneath you. And while I haven't had that many close personal deaths, it's the closest thing that I can relate to. It's that feeling of the ground shifting beneath you and everyone else seems to be just Going along as if they haven't understood that this massive earthquake just happened.

[00:04:53] Yeah, so I'm definitely dealing with that. Some of the other ones though, I thought were interesting because they have been struggles in my life, but I've either come to a place where I've found peace or I've found different versions of them that serve me as well. 

[00:05:13] Helga: So which one in particular, or which two?

[00:05:16] Jenna Flanagan: Well, okay, so let's see. Top of mind, I guess, would be the getting married thing. That's been a big thing for a long time. I think for a lot of young women particularly. Not just American young women, but African American young women. There is a big emphasis on the importance of getting married, of being, quote unquote, wife material.

[00:05:42] Along with that comes this very complicated and convoluted set of rules about what you are and are not supposed to do to make yourself wife material. 

[00:05:53] Helga: Well, what are the criteria for wife material? 

[00:05:56] Jenna Flanagan: Uh, well, you know, I think it's going to vary from person to person, but as I understood it, someone who is first and foremost chaste.

[00:06:03] She's not fast. No man wants to wife a fast woman. Um, but so that would be first and foremost. And again, I want to say these are Very convoluted and often contradictory rules. So she's intelligent, but she's not cocky. She's very bright, but she knows how to be quiet. Very confident, but she's not, you know - 

Helga: Overshadowing her man?

[00:06:29] Exactly, exactly. Or person. Yes, is a, in some cases, I've heard the phrase “help meet.” 

[00:06:36] Helga: The fuck is that? 

[00:06:39] Jenna Flanagan: That is, and I believe, okay, this is where, full disclosure, I have not paid the closest attention in Sunday school, so there's some things that I don't remember exactly, but I believe it comes out of the Christian tradition.

[00:06:52] Um, I believe it's a phrase referenced by the Bible. I could be wrong. But about the fact that a wife's position, her existence, is to be a helper to her husband. Depending on how heavy handed, I guess, uh, your, all the other things are, but your religious upbringing are, is going to determine how much some of those issues were drilled into your head. 

[00:07:19] And so, as a young girl coming up, you also hear from a lot of the boys, you know, like, oh my god, girls are so, Um, they're so prissy, and this is where I would say a lot of the misogyny comes in that perhaps, um, at least I didn't understand at the time, and I think, as I watch other young women, I'm not entirely sure they get either, because it's, Pretty, uh, insidious in the way that it hides and everything.

[00:07:43] But so, you know, girls are too, uh, fussy, they're too primpy, they're too, um, you know, persnickety, uh, particular, they're too demanding, they're too, they want too many things, and they're constantly asking, and why can't you just be relaxed and chill and all those other things? So, in an attempt to sort of hop into from one leg to the other to be both of those things that can drive a person crazy.

[00:08:10] Helga: Are you crazy? Are you crazy? Are you crazy, Jenna? 

[00:08:14] Jenna Flanagan: Officially, I have not been diagnosed. I do have a therapist. She has assured me that no, I am not officially crazy. 

[00:08:22] Helga: So which of those things feel part of your challenge? And how are you navigating them? 

Jenna Flanagan: For me, the challenge was, being okay with just being me.

[00:08:33] So many messages come at you as a young woman saying, you know, like, there's literally, there's a time, as if your life has a time limit on it. Of course, everyone's life does, but we're talking about your value as a woman, as a person, that if you don't do certain things by a certain time, you missed the boat, it's too late.

[00:08:54] And for me, coming to the realization that A, that's not true. There's not a time limit. 

[00:09:02] Helga: Let’s start there. 

[00:09:03] Jenna Flanagan: Yeah, exactly. And that B, settling just to say you have a man is not for me. And so becoming comfortable with being like, yeah, no, it's too late. Just me, and I'm actually okay with that, and quite happy, to be honest.

[00:09:23] When I say I'm happy as a single woman, that doesn't mean that like, Oh my god, I hate men. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. But I do think there's something to be said for, uh, women to reach a point where like, no, actually, my own company is very enjoyable. Um, that doesn't mean that there isn't love in my life.

[00:09:43] There's people who I am very, very close to. Um, not all intimate relationships are of a sexual nature. And so, yeah, you can still have a very full life and not feel as though you have made some Immeasurably deep compromises to get there. 

[00:10:04] Helga: Do you think it is different for African American women? 

[00:10:10] Jenna Flanagan: Oh God, yes. actually speaking of this, because so I very recently, uh, shameless plug coming up, but I very recently finished a podcast called After Broaden Market, and that was examining the aftermath of the 2003 murder of a 15 year old queer girl, Sakia Gunn. Now, I bring that up because in doing the podcast, it was as much about me trying to wrap my head around and understand what did, and more importantly, what did not happen in the aftermath of her murder, as it was revisiting the story and trying to share all of that.

[00:10:46] And one of the things that I learned was the ways that White supremacy shows up in Black culture and the ways that sometimes even within Black communities we can hold each other to standards that were never intended for us to achieve anyway. And one of them is the idea of the feminine woman. She's meek.

[00:11:13] She's quiet. She's also slender. She is, uh, something to be, uh, treated very gently, very delicately. And that's not been the experience that most, I would say almost all African American women have had in their lives. And that doesn't include also the look, being thin, but also having long feminine hair, which is not natural to what grows out of our head.

[00:11:39] Having very European like features which are deemed more feminine, but a lot of times our features have been downgraded as being more masculine or undesirable, unattractive. So yes, I think as an African American woman that trying to live up to an ideal that was never made with you in mind, For me, it was untenable and impossible.

[00:12:06] I've seen other people engage and they seem happy, and I'm very, you know, live and let live, but maybe that was not for me. That was not for me. 

[00:12:16] Helga: The other thing I think happened In the context of what you're saying is that if you aren't chosen, if you decide to make other choices for yourself, you also become invisible.

[00:12:33] Jenna Flanagan: Oh yeah. Yeah, and that's been very, very true. One of the criticisms that I used to hear, even growing up, was women either choose to have a career or to have a family. Now, I don't know if that's pervasive in other cultures, I can only speak for the one that I came up in, but yes, I heard that. A lot. Well, you know, she chose to have a career, so that's why she doesn't have a family.

[00:13:00] I do not believe that the two are mutually exclusive in any way, shape, or form. And I also think that's incredibly ironic because, keep in mind, throughout the history of America, Black women have always worked and had a family. That's one of those things that, like, how did you come to that conclusion? But again, with those ideals being held up as what every man, regardless of race, should aspire to, then that means that if you don't If you don't adhere to that, then you are less than, you're not worth dealing with, and so you can, I will say, feel invisible.

[00:13:44] I personally don't believe that I am invisible, at least certainly not anymore. But for a long time, when I was younger, absolutely, I felt completely invisible. 

[00:13:54] Helga: How did you decide to go to therapy? 

[00:13:58] Jenna Flanagan: I okay, well this would probably go back to the whole, uh wedding thing. Somewhere in my late 30s, a very, very close friend of mine got married and that was it for me.

[00:14:14] That was the last one. I was convinced I could not. I sobbed in the car the whole way there. I sobbed in the car the whole way back. I, because this was my last single girlfriend. This was Now the cheese really does stand alone! Like, what is going on? 

[00:14:35] Helga: Did you just say, now the cheese stands alone? 

[00:14:37] Jenna Flanagan: I don't know, for some reason that's what pops into my head.

[00:14:45] Helga: Okay. Continue.

[00:14:51] And these weren't like, you know, just like, oh my god, like, I don't know, Lifetime movie tears. No, this was like, I probably should not have been driving. Hysterical. Tears, hyperventilating, this was bad. And so at one point, after just all of this rush of emotion, which was just a lot of feelings that were coming out of me, all I knew was that it was, it was an intense rush of feelings and I couldn't separate them out.

[00:15:24]  Helga: Feelings of? 

Jenna Flanagan: Feelings of, I mean, first and foremost, um, anger. Yeah, why? I did all the things that I was supposed to do. 

[00:15:35] Jenna Flanagan: Oh, why hasn't this happened for me? So there was that feeling. There was the worry of time and, you know, from what everybody says, you know, I'm in my late 30s. My God, like time is running out.

[00:15:50] Like, my value is Okay, so that. There was a also, confusion over what else it is I can possibly do. I, I, I'm just, I'm so lost. I'm so confused. And then it's weird because one of the things that I had learned noticed over time is that as my girlfriends moved into different phases of life, be it either they got married and they had a kid.

[00:16:22] Helga: You lose them. 

[00:16:23] Jenna Flanagan: You lose them because their life has moved and the friendship that you two had that was the top priority for the two of you is no longer her priority. And there's also mourning that goes with that and a lot of grief. And yeah, in a way, you know, you are losing girlfriends right and left and like, Oh my God, and where does this, how do I move forward with my life when these people who I used to be able to rely on aren't going to be able to be there for me in the same way.

[00:16:57] So yeah, there was, there was just a lot of emotion that came pouring out of me. And, um, I was speaking on the phone with my mom and she was like, at that point, cause she had heard me bitch and whine about this for years. She was like, I've tried everything. I don't know what else to tell you, Jenna. I really think you need to see a therapist.

[00:17:18] Yeah. And it was one of the best decisions I ever made, because, because I learned how to differentiate and separate out all of those. different emotions. At the time, I quite literally could not. And what I always try to tell people who are just like, eh, I don't really have time for a therapist. And I'm like, I don't know, could you talk to me?

[00:17:39] Like, I'm not a professional, but it's somebody who you can pour it all out to. Like, all of it. Like, to a degree, even with, you know, our friends, all of us. Yeah, we share things, but. You don't share everything. Yeah, exactly. Like there's some things that, you know, just aren't appropriate or whatever. This is the one space and place where you can just pour it all out.

[00:18:03] And that is just so free. There, I've had sessions where like my therapist has been like, Jenna, we have 10 minutes left and you can't keep talking because there's so much that I just have to get out. Now, saying that though, I do want to say. A few things. One, within the African American community, there is a stigma to seeking therapy.

[00:18:23] One is because there's the notion of what goes on in this house stays in this house. Like, we don't talk to outside people about inside business. That's one. Two is that a large part of the mental health industry is still very much controlled and dominated by non black people, mostly white people. So that adds another layer of challenge in terms of feeling comfortable.

[00:18:48] There are, I understand, schools are graduating more and more black therapists every day, which is a beautiful thing. There was A collective of not just therapists, but black men therapists who are specifically working with young black men, which, again, if there is a group that has been encouraged to stomp down their feelings for a whole host of reasons, I can't think of anything that's better than that.

[00:19:17] For me, uh, my therapist is a, very understanding, nice white lady. But one of the things I said to her when we spoke on the phone the first time was, I need somebody who not only is proficient, obviously, in mental health, but also can understand how racism exacerbates all of these issues in my life. And the first few people, I did have some people who were just like, Well, I don't know.

[00:19:44] Nope. Conversation's over. Conversation is over. You don't need to go any further. Yes. But she did, and she started off with saying, I do have some other clients who are also African American women. She mentioned a conference that she attended that I guess dealt specifically with, uh, issues that marginalized communities face.

[00:20:05] And then we had a very fascinating conversation about, um, her having read The Bluest Eye and how that opened her eyes, her actual blue eyes, to, um, a lot of issues that she had never even considered or were even on her radar. And Honestly, just her having read the book, I was like, okay, we can work together.

[00:20:29] I was like, okay, all right, this is the safe space.

[00:20:35] Helga: Well, on that note, I remember I started watching PBS, let's say from four o'clock on, because I realized I wanted to see and here. So I would start with, uh, Amanpour and company at four o'clock and then go on to whatever's after that. BBC News. I was delighted to hear that NJ Spotlight, that New Jersey has its own flow and people taking care of it.

[00:21:07] And then there was you.

[00:21:12] And I want to say the thing, one of the things that kept me coming back to that evening of television, or that I watched on my computer of PBS, was that it was so important for me to see someone people who looked like me being able to confidently give political analysis, cultural analysis. My eyes needed that.

[00:21:46] My spirit needed that because it is so rare to see us in those spaces, even now. 

Jenna Flanagan: Yeah. 

Helga: The other thing I want to confess is that if you weren't on, I didn't watch it. 

[00:22:02] Jenna Flanagan: Okay. All right. I, I have heard that from a few people. 

[00:22:07] Helga: I just, I didn't watch, but I'd love for you to speak about what that experience has been for you on Metro Focus to be that African American woman in that seat, having those conversations, Showing up every night.

[00:22:27] Jenna Flanagan: Well, you know, it’s interesting because when I think of me as in Jenna, the individual, I just think of Jenna, just the individual who, you know, is curious about various issues and how things work and why. It comes up a lot, especially when we talk about politics, just, oh my goodness, why? But at the same time, As an African American woman, there were also a lot of questions that either weren't being asked or issues perhaps that weren't being brought to the table that I was seeing happen within my community, either within in person conversations, online forums, etc.

[00:23:14] Helga: What about local news, was interesting to you as a point of departure? 

[00:23:20] Jenna Flanagan: Local news is everything. So, quick resume. I started my career locally here in New York with Ten Ton Winds. And then I was in New Jersey. I was back in New York. 

[00:23:30] Helga: But you were at WNYC also? 

[00:23:31] Jenna Flanagan: Yeah, I was definitely. After being at WBGO in Newark, New Jersey, I came back across the Hudson and was an associate producer for WNYC for six plus years.

[00:23:42] It's only because I very recently have had to go back through my CV that I'm like, That was the longest I've ever, not the six years at NYC, but the nine years with my last job was the longest I've ever held a job!

[00:23:58] Um, just, again, if there's any journalism students listening to this, word of warning, layoffs happen, make yourself ready. Okay, but having said that, when I was at 1010 WINS, one of the things that I learned was the critical nature of local government and how that actually impacts people in real time. I can't remember his name right now, but there was a state reporter, I believe, who had reproduced a meme that was very popular online.

[00:24:27] And it's of, it's three white people. a young white couple, a girl and a boy, and this sort of, I don't know, effervescent white girl walking in the forefront. The boyfriend is sort of turning around and looking at the girl in the forefront like, oh my god, she's hot. And the girlfriend who he's with is giving him the like, are you kidding me? look. He then superimposed on that image that the girl walking in front was national politics. The guy turning around was the American public, and local politics was the girl like, hello! And that's really, I mean, I think that's the best way to describe it. When a lot of the things that people talk about that affect their lives, that's usually where local politics shows up in your life.

[00:25:15] And it's so incredibly important, but it's also so very under examined, under reported. In New York City, I think there's a bit of maybe a Misnomer about it because there's just so much media here. Of course, local politics is going to get covered. But for myself, I live 90 miles north of here, and good luck finding investigative work on who your town council members are, who your county executive is, even your state representatives are.

[00:25:49] And then what I also found was that, Once I started working, I would say, in New Jersey, because that's where I was a reporter, talking to people, you would find out that because there's no real focus on local politics, there's also not a full understanding of what local politics is, or what it does. So a lot of people didn't really understand.

[00:26:12] What does a county exec do? Or what do you mean I have a state representative and a congressperson? Like, what is the difference between these two jobs? A lot of times, I also found that a lot of people didn't really recognize government, unless It showed up in their lives in a negative way. Like, it was about taxes, or it was about some sort of limitation, or schools, libraries, exactly, um, levies, or, I don't know, like, a permit you couldn't get.

[00:26:42] That's when people tend to notice it. All of the other times when it shows up, it doesn't even register. Like, I drove here on paved roads. One of the silliest things that I always thought is very apropos for New York. Someone needs to do a toilet bowl ribbon cutting. And I say that because, no, because the infrastructure of the sewage system, and this city is a perfect example, is so unbelievably old.

[00:27:09] And having had other jobs where I was able to cover New York State, it's worse upstate. Really? Yes. But it's one of those things. It's out of sight, out of mind. You flush the toilet and move on about your life. To get people to focus on that and to understand that we need tax dollars for something like replacing some of these pipes and some of these sewage treatment systems and all that other stuff is challenging.

[00:27:33] But as I was mentioning on social media a day or two ago, you know, if you don't have Local media, if you don't have local news coverage, that's how you get a George Santos. Which was quite a ride, I think, for the entire nation. And I wish that that would be the takeaway from his entire existence. But if there were to be a takeaway, it should be that there were local reporters who were raising some red flags.

[00:28:02] But most local, uh, news outlets are so small that it's easy to be like, oh, well, it's probably nothing. People focus more on the big, sexy federal government and they don't pay close attention. I could wax philosophical about that forever. 

[00:28:20] Helga: I want to ask you about that experience at Metro Focus and how it informs what you'll do next.

[00:28:28] Jenna Flanagan: I want to say that I definitely developed a much greater comfort level and confidence in front of a mic. and in front of a camera. There was still, I want to say, a little bit of Jenna Flanagan, the representative, who was speaking to you from Albany, New York, who really wants to do a really good job.

[00:28:48] Please, my God, somebody! but I've, I've learned to relax more and stand more confidently in what I'm capable of doing and, um, and what I, you know, bring to any conversation. So, that was a big thing learning to ask difficult questions, that's not always appreciated. Sometimes, you know, some people might wince a bit, but it's important, especially when it comes to political leaders, elected leaders.

[00:29:21] I mean, just a quick reminder, you work for the people, so you gotta answer questions. Yeah, right. Yeah, so that's also a thing. I would say at the same time, and this is something that I've learned bit by bit over my career, is that when it comes to interviewing everyday people, making sure that they know that you're listening.

[00:29:43] If there's any secret sauce that I've learned, it's making people feel heard has got to be the number one thing. Everybody, one way or another, has a story to tell. But because they've convinced themselves that nobody really wants to hear it or nobody cares what I think, and so they will hold back. But if you can create a space where your guest legitimately knows what you say matters, you will get some amazing gems out of just about anybody on earth.

[00:30:12] Helga: You're listening to Helga. We'll rejoin the conversation in just a moment.

[00:30:22] Avery Willis-Hoffman: The Brown Arts Institute at Brown University is a university wide research enterprise and catalyst for the arts at Brown that creates new work and supports, amplifies, and adds new dimensions to the creative practices of Brown's arts departments, faculty, students, and surrounding communities. Visit arts.brown.edu to learn more about our upcoming programming and to sign up for our mailing list. 

[00:30:49] Helga: And now, let's rejoin my conversation with journalist Jenna Flanagan. 

The other thing that has come up for me is about Legacy. Whose shoulders do we stand on? Oh. And so, you know, I had to go to the interwebs and find a few things.

[00:31:11] So I asked you before about being an African American person on this national show. 

And I remembered that there was also a Earl Caldwell. Earl Caldwell was at the New York Times from 1967 to 1974. And he was the only reporter who was specifically covering the issues affecting the African American community.

[00:31:43] Wow. And then, I went to look for the other thing and, and to really bring home the importance of having different people, people who know about different things, having a show that has a broad wingspan. Um, I heard that, A reporter over the weekend say, I covered Rikers Island for a long time, but I'd never been there.

[00:32:16] 62.6 percent of the inmates on Rikers Island are African American. And I say this to point out, I was devastated when I heard that. I said, well, how is it that you're reporting on this thing and you've never been there? And that it is specific to a particular population and that you can't speak to that either because you've never even set foot in the prison.

[00:32:50] Okay. The other thing that comes up a lot right now is the word optics. I hate that word so much because I think it mocks the intelligence of people. And that it's reductive to any conversation. So all we're focused on is what a thing looks like. And I want to know for you, and I recognize this desire to just sit down and be a reporter, to be someone who interviews people, to be someone who is giving political, cultural, social analysis.

[00:33:32] I totally get that. But. There is some place in there where it does make a difference and that you're an African American woman there. I know that we talked about this a little bit earlier and that's, that's why I understand that you just, you want to be Jenna Flanagan and you want to sit down and, and talk about the things you need to talk about, report on the things that you need to report about.

[00:33:54] But I don't think we can overlook the fact that it's you. 

[00:34:01] Jenna Flanagan: Yeah. Um, well, I do want to say that, uh, you know, if you see her, you can be her, is a thing. I grew up idolizing the late Gwen Ifill. 

[00:34:15] Helga: Okay, I'm gonna stop you right there. I'm gonna stop you right there, because I said the thing on whose shoulders.

[00:34:24] So, there was Ida B. Wells, who led the anti lynching crusade of the 1890s. Ethel L. Payne. She's known as the first lady of the Black press. She's the first African American female commentator on a national network. Marvell Cook. The first African American woman to work at a mostly white newspaper. Marianne Shad Carey, the first African American woman newspaper editor, who after creating the Provincial Negro, became the first African American woman to earn a law degree.

[00:35:06] Jenna Flanagan: Wow. 

[00:35:08] Helga: Next on my list is Gwen Ifill. And for those who don't know, she's the first African American woman to host a prominent political talk show on national television and the first African American woman to moderate a vice presidential debate between, and that was the one between Joe Biden and Sarah Palin.

[00:35:28] So then I had to go down my list. I remembered. Sue Simmons. Mm hmm. Rolanda Watts. Mm hmm. Because we all wanted her hair. Robin Roberts. Uh huh. Yamiche Alcindor. Mm hmm. Michelle Norris. Mm hmm. Michelle Martin. Mm hmm. And before I give my bestest, yummiest one, I want you to go back and talk about Gwen Ifill.

[00:35:55] Jenna Flanagan: Okay. Well, um, Oh my god, I mean, I think watching her, what really got to me was the command that she had. I mean, outside of my mother in the house, she was the first Black woman who I saw who commanded Respect, who commanded people's attention. There was no sort of dance about it. Like, I'm holding attention, but I'm not being a bitch about it or something.

[00:36:26] Like, no, she stood in her power and she held, I mean, my God, she was just absolutely amazing to watch. She, again, when I talk about difficult questions, there were so many times I watched her directly Ask somebody a question, particularly a lawmaker, um, you know they didn't want to answer, and she wasn't going to let you get away with the non answer and just move on.

[00:36:53] I always respected that about her. I remember even as a kid being like, that's the kind of journalist I want to be. That's, I want to be like her. But also, going back to, again, the reductive term optics, seeing her. This was an African American woman who, she had short hair. She wasn't super waify thin. And this is not to say there's anything wrong with that body type, but I never once got the impression that Gwen was embarrassed or ashamed about her body.

[00:37:28] It was part of the package, part of the presentation. I loved that about her so much. And I just remember thinking, that is the kind of journalist that I aspire to be. 

[00:37:41] Helga: Do you think there was a different kind of support for her by the network? And what was different, do you think, about her time in terms of how she was supported than now?

[00:37:57] Jenna Flanagan: Well, I mean, first and foremost, I gotta say it's public media. I mean, public media gives space and has the ability to give much more breathing room to subjects that are being discussed to give them the dignity that they deserve. Not to say that you can't give dignity in a time frame, but the clock is merciless.

[00:38:18] And so, sometimes you just have to move on. So, first and foremost, I would say public media. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes, but I would imagine, considering the journalist that I saw showing up every week, that that had to have been the case, that there was support for her, that what she was doing, even though she didn't have the quote-unquote typical anchor look, that she still was resonating with an audience.

[00:38:46] Helga: My girl, and the person I remember from when I was little, is Melba Tolliver. I know her name. Oh. So, Melba Tolliver refused to wear a headscarf to cover her afro. That's the first thing.

[00:39:11] And we can see now how that action has benefited our society, giving not only Black women, but Women, writ large, and now, women identifying women, the right to express themselves, to be unapologetic. And I always thought that Melba Tolliver was an aspirational figure. So not only was she there for women giving the news. It's like you said about Gwen Ifill. I want to be that. And I never wanted to be on television or being in a media, in the, in the media. I used to love to get my toothbrush and do the weather on the wall. And I would just make it up, you know, over here. No idea of what was over there. And then I would just make up places.

[00:40:08] So Africa was next to Connecticut. But I wanted to give the weather. That, that's the way I understood what journalism was through The Weatherman. 

[00:40:21] Jenna Flanagan: Ah. 

[00:40:22] Helga: Okay, don't judge.

[00:40:28] Jenna Flanagan: We all have our path to get there. 

[00:40:28] Helga: But when I saw Melba Tolliver, my whole heart opened and I felt then that yes, we can do everything. I had that experience in music, but I did not have it outside of my piano lessons and my peers who were playing piano and let's say the concerts I was going to because then I saw Andre Watts and he was the only African American pianist I had seen ever.

[00:41:04] And so I started to learn slowly, oh look, we can do all of these things. And I loved that She was my example of that, and so I could have my Afro, and I could aspire to be a person who reads, who can speak about whatever, in any situation that I was in, and as you're saying, can have that pride, can have that way of, of being in the world.

[00:41:43] So I'm glad to hear you, uh, talk about Gwen Ifill in that way. Will you speak about your, your work with the LGBTQ plus communities? and why and how that became so important to you. So I know you mentioned your podcast, but mention it again. 

[00:42:10] Jenna Flanagan: Oh, uh, the podcast After Broad Market, streaming everywhere, and it is about the aftermath of the 2003 murder of 15 year old Sakia Gunn.

[00:42:21] So first and foremost, I do have to say I am not part of the LGBTQIA plus community, but also going back to, as I was saying, growing up as one of very few Black children in a small Hudson Valley town, I was very acutely aware of what it was like to just not fit, to be different. And you could feel it in your bones.

[00:42:51] So, I want to say that's where it started because, to date myself, this would be like in the late 80s, early 90s. But, you know, this was during the height of the AIDS scare, and it just seemed completely ridiculous and just the knee jerk reactions around the queer community. I will say that most of my childhood growing up, I had gay neighbors.

[00:43:20] They were a very happily eventually married couple when it was legal, but they might as well have been married my whole life. And so none of what I was hearing in terms of slander fit with anything that I saw to be real in real life. And that felt to me, it mirrored a lot of what I would hear about in terms of racism.

[00:43:42] Like, what do you, I, I, I know nothing but Black people as a child and now none of this fits. What are you talking about? So wanting to get involved and try to to push the conversation forward, to push for rights, for equal visibility. The right to just be, for different reasons, I understood that very, very deeply.

[00:44:10] And as time went on, I also began to see that there was, from my perspective at least, as a, again, cis, straight woman, that there seemed to be a bit of a schism within the queer community between queer white people and queer people of color. Because if you're a queer person of color, those are now two different stressors, two different sources of stereotypes, etc.

[00:44:37] that you are now dealing with and fighting against. Whereas if you're a white queer person, you still have access to white supremacy. The Venn diagram, I want to say, of, uh, I think white supremacy or something like that. Basically, like, you're still closer to the power center simply based on your skin color.

[00:44:57] So I would see how that fission then led to people, for example, in the, at least in the African American community, feeling more comfortable saying things like, oh, well, you know, queer issues or white issues. Those aren't Black issues. Okay, the math wasn't mathing for me. And still seeing queer people of color get pushed further and further to the margins.

[00:45:27] As time goes on, again, I think covering Sakia's story was really just an earth shaking moment for me. Um, not because of her sexuality, but I want to say because of her gender presentation. And I talk about this in the podcast that Sakia had a very masculine presentation. And I wouldn't say that I had as much of a masculine presentation, but I definitely leaned more towards tomboy.

[00:45:53] We would have been doing it for two very different reasons. For her, it had more to do with, you know, sexual preference and how She wanted to identify, which would have been as an aggressive, that's what young queer women, specifically lesbians, I want to say in the black community, who dressed in a more masculine presenting way, referred to themselves as aggressives.

[00:46:14] For me, dressing in a non hyper femme, more tomboyish way, if you will, was more about being at that point just exasperated and frustrated with the whole notion of what it meant to be hyper femme. And I just, I cannot, this is a bar I'm not going to reach. I don't want to do this anymore. But what I find interesting for both of us is that at the core of it was comfort.

[00:46:38] You know, for me, it was about not feeling as though I had to constantly lead with my sexuality. That my body wasn't the first thing that I was presenting to the world. And again, baggy clothes are just comfortable. I cannot speak on behalf, well, first of all, no one person can speak on behalf of an entire community, but I just want to acknowledge that, again, this is a all coming from the point of view of an outsider.

[00:47:04] I would hope a empathetic and allied outsider, but still an outsider.

[00:47:17] Helga: What issues and values are you the steward of? 

[00:47:26] Jenna Flanagan: I would like to think that I am a steward for, this is going to sound incredibly cheesy to say truth, but when I say truth, I want to be specific and point out that sometimes the truth isn't just facts. Sometimes the truth is having those uncomfortable discussions that get to, I'll say, facts that we usually don't want to talk about.

[00:47:57] They tend to be the sort of assumptions that get glossed over. Those are the sometimes incredibly uncomfortable places, but have so much value in quote unquote going there. I would love for that to be something that I am the steward of, certainly not alone. I know there are other journalists who are absolutely committed to that as well.

[00:48:20] But yeah, that's something that I try to bring to every interview, is Where is the point of tension and what is the truth behind it? 

[00:48:32] Helga: What's a thing you do every day that every person can do? Oh. A thing that might lead them towards some goal and desire they have for themselves. 

[00:48:43] Jenna Flanagan: Well, let's see, uh, every single day I do some version of meditating, even if it's something as brief as five or ten minutes.

[00:48:55] And it doesn't happen at a specific time of the day, but if a thought or a moment of clarity comes to me, I try as much as possible to jot it down. Always on my person in a disturbing way, but, but no, but like, because I want to be able to, and then to give myself some time to, again, and this could be like five minutes, like, even when I go back home, I'll be driving.

[00:49:24] Chances are, usually it's when I'm also doing something else, like I'm hiking, or I'm driving, or I'm in the grocery store, or I'm cooking, or something, and somehow a moment of clarity will descend on me. Um, and I want to give it some space to, you know, what is this? Why is it showing up? And is it something that I can come back to, to use as a tool to build into now that I have this little nugget of knowledge or whatever you want to call it?

[00:49:59] How do I then incorporate that into my life to make the life that I'm living better? 

[00:50:05] Helga: Here's my last question. When I was applying to college, one of the greatest questions I was ever asked was this one. I'm gonna ask you to answer it. Comment on an experience that has helped you discern or define a value you hold.

[00:50:29] Jenna Flanagan: Oh, wow. There have been more than a few times where I have chosen not to do something because It didn't align with a value that I had. I do remember that there was a little girl who I knew, we were both kids, and uh, I guess I was her acceptable Black friend. We would have been, I don't know, I want to say like maybe nine.

[00:51:00] And one of the things that I will say is interesting when you are the only Black person in a white space is that you are simultaneously noticed and recognized as a Black person and also unnoticed and ignored as a Black person. Basically, what my mom would describe as, yeah, sometimes white people forget that you're Black.

[00:51:25] And so, in being around her, I would hear some of just the casual racism that just came out of his kid's mouth over and over and over again. And She invited me to a slumber party, and the bottom line is that I didn't go. Now, I was a kid, so I wasn't comfortable enough to be like, um, you're hella racist, which means your family's hella racist, I don't wanna be in your racist house, no thank you.

[00:51:54] I was nine. So I came up with an excuse not to go. And then a little bit later on, I remember, uh, in, um, opportunity where I was, you know, I was babysitting as a teenager. No big deal. And I got along with the kids that I was babysitting for, and the family seemed to really like me. It was, you know, pretty easy money.

[00:52:14] But they wanted me to go with them on, I guess, their vacation or something like that. And, you know, it would have been, again, as a kid, this would have been a decent amount of money. I can't be your mammy on the road. I just can't do it. I cannot do it. And And I remember, and I, you know, I think I had gotten, like, a lower paying minimum wage job or something that summer to help make ends meet, but no, I couldn't do that.

[00:52:48] I just, no. And now that I'm thinking, like, through the timeline, I'm like, and then when I got to college, anyway, there were, there were several steps along the way where there were decisions that were made where I was just like, I could benefit, but no, no. 

[00:53:05] Helga: Jenna Flanagan, thank you so much. 

[00:53:12] Jenna Flanagan: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much.

[00:53:14] Helga:  Absolutely. Let's hug. 

[00:53:17] Jenna Flanagan: Absolutely!

[00:53:22] Helga: That was my conversation with Jenna Flanagan. I'm Helga Davis. To connect with the show, drop us a line at helga at wnyc. org. We'll send you a link to our show page with every episode of this and past seasons, and resources for all the artists, authors, and musicians who have come up in conversation. And if you want to support the show, please leave us a comment and rating on any of your favorite podcast platforms.

[00:53:53] And now for the coda. Here's a clip from the podcast, After Broad and Market, hosted by Jenna Flanagan and available wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:54:09] Jenna Flanagan: At first, I didn't take the assignment all that seriously. I was to attend a memorial and a rally for a murdered 15 year old girl. I was told she was a lesbian, that Newark's queer community was Coalescing Around Her Death as a Rallying Cry.

[00:54:48] At first, I didn't take the assignment all that seriously. I was to attend a memorial and a rally for a murdered 15 year old girl. I was told she was a lesbian, that Newark's queer community was coalescing around her death as a rallying cry. As I walked the six blocks from my radio station to the rally site at Broad and Market in inner city Newark, New Jersey, I genuinely didn't understand the significance of Sakia Gunn's murder.

[00:55:18] In the early hours of May 11th, 2003, Sakia and four other Black young women were returning home after hanging out at the Chelsea Piers in New York City. Then, a popular refuge where queer kids could find peace, acceptance, and belonging. After getting off the commuter train, they decided to wait for the bus at the corner of Broad and Market.

[00:55:41] Sakia's best friend Valencia Bailey recounted the story for me in her first ever press interview. In 20 years. 

[00:55:48] We were out there swinging on the, uh, under the scaffold and just un opposed, just having a good time pull up, just swinging back and forth, having a good time. 

[00:55:56] Jenna Flanagan: Two men approached the group in a vehicle.

[00:55:58] One of them got out and began coming on to one of the more femme presenting girls. 

[00:56:04] We had already told them as soon as they pulled up, nah, we're gay. We're, we're, we're fine. We're okay. Um, they still continue to 

[00:56:11] Jenna Flanagan: continue. Sakia stepped in and told him they weren't interested because they were lesbians. A brief scuffle ensued.

[00:56:20] Right then, that moment, it was just like, oh my God, cuz, you believe it? And she flipped down. She stopped. She looked down at me. She looked down at her shirt, and then she looked back at me. She took, like, maybe two or three stabs and stumbled back and hit the ground. 

[00:56:40] Jenna Flanagan: The man stabbed Sakia with the knife multiple times, then hopped back in the vehicle, and they drove off.

[00:56:50] Fifteen year old Sakia Gunn, an openly gay, masculine presenting, popular teen, Bled out in the arms of her best friend, Valencia. 

[00:57:02] I seen her shirt go from white to red within less than a second because she ran behind me. So, once I saw her hit the ground, I, um, I ran, I immediately ran to her. And I was like, come on, cuz, get up, get up, get up, get up.Get up. 

[00:57:20] Jenna Flanagan: While covering the story, I naively expected to witness another pivotal moment in the national queer rights movement. Something akin to the outcry following the horrific murder of Matthew Shepard just five years earlier. Only this time, it would center around a gender non conforming black girl.

[00:57:42] But nothing happened. 

[00:57:50] Helga: Season six of Helga is a co production of WNYC Studios and the Brown Arts Institute at Brown University. The show is produced by Alex Ambrose and David Norville. Our technical director is Sapir Rosenblatt. Our executive producer is Elizabeth Nonamaker. Original music by Michel Ndegheocello and Jason Moran.

[00:58:14] Avery Willis Hoffman is our executive producer at the Brown Arts Institute, along with producing director Jessica Wasilewski. WQXR's chief content officer is Ed Yim.

 

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.