Kai Wright: Hey, everybody. This is Kai, and I really, really, really want to get you to come join me for our new show. It's called The Stakes, and it's very much a continuation of the work we did here on Caught. It's the same team of producers and reporters, but we're broadening our scope beyond juvenile justice. We're thinking about all the social systems we've built as a society. We're asking, can we make them work better for more people?

We've talked about maternal health and lead poison. We sat down with former Attorney General, Eric Holder. We even went deep on late '80s hip hop. Trust me, you don't want to miss that one. Anyway, if you need incentive, I want to play you our most recent episode. It's about gender identity, and it's made by a young woman in our Radio Rookies program, which is the very team that conceived of Caught in the first place. Take a listen, and then please, please, please, go subscribe to The Stakes. Talk to you there.

[music]

Kai: I'm Kai Wright, and these are The Stakes. In this episode, rich lesbian soccer mom chic.

Kristin Tomlinson: I'm Kristin Tomlinson. I'm 21. I'm a Pisces, and I like long walks on the beach.

Kai: [chuckles] Okay.

Kristin: Oh, and my gender is gender fluid, or--

Kai: What does that mean?

Kristin: Mostly like I can be anything. I can be a boy or a girl, or things that are in between, or vastly out of the realm of the binary. My gender is fluid, it moves with the wind.

Kai: Is that an internal thing like something that's going on inside you, or is it an external thing about what you present to the world?

Kristin: A bit of both. I would have to say like really got solid around high school. That's when I knew the vocabulary, and there were hints around my whole childhood. When I was little, I had this stuffed animal. I named them Mittens. Maybe in elementary school. I never remembered their gender, so I just referred to them as a boy or a girl, or whatever the day struck me whenever I remember that. It's like you have these feelings before. It's just until you find it, you don't know what it really is.

[music]

Kai: Kristin is a Radio Rookie. That's a program working with The Stakes in which young people make documentaries about stuff they care about. She's been reporting on something I'm thinking about a lot as well. This June is the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall rebellion, which a lot of people consider the unofficial launch of the modern LGBT liberation movement. It started when cops rated a gay bar here in New York's Greenwich Village. It's a place called the Stonewall Inn.

[background conversation]

Speaker 3: Just to get into the Stonewall, you'd walk up and you'd knock on the front door. The Stonewall, like all gay bars at that time, were painted black.

Kai: It was a fight over space, literal space. A group of transgender people in the bar, and some queer kids in the park across the street, they faced the cops and decided, "You know what? No. We claim this spot. Here, in this bar, on this street corner, we make our stand. Here, we are no longer deviants."

Speaker 4: It was always the gay bashings on the drag queens by heterosexual men, women, and the police.

Kai: By the time I was coming out in the mid '90s, our community's demand for space had broadened significantly. We were not going to be considered deviants anywhere in society, and we weren't going to hide. On the contrary, we made ourselves as visible as possible. "I am gay. I am lesbian. I am transgender. See me, make space, because I'm not going away."

We declared our existence with so many names that we needed a sprawling acronym to hold them all, LGBTQI-- It could go on, and that's where I come from. My liberation is tied to my self-identification. I gladly check a box, because it means you have to deal with me. Now, along comes this generation of LGBTQI folks who don't really want to check any of the boxes.

Honestly, I don't totally get how that works, not in this political moment in which so many of our labels are under attack, but I do know it's yet another way our community is challenging the toxic idea of what is normal. I want to understand, and Kristin offered to help.

[music]

Kristin: All right. I think a good place to start is with my two best friends.

Ruby: Hi. My name is Ruby.

Faith: My name is Faith.

Ruby: Basically--

Kristin: My friends and I are hanging out in Ruby's room. It has an organized desk with the complete set of Harry Potter books, and Snape's wand resting on top of them. A space that's obviously inhabited by a nerdy 21 year old.

Ruby: When I see comfort androg just like basic comfort, like--

Faith: Fine honey lesbians.

Ruby: Right. Chris and Stewart has it all. You guys saw that picture of her?

Faith: Yes, we saw that because you sent it to us last night.

Ruby: Yes.

Kristin: Ruby and I met in high school.

Ruby: All right. First question, basically. Don't look at my questions.

Faith: Oh.

Ruby: They're secrets.

Faith: Thanks.

Ruby: What is gender to you?

Faith: Wow.

Ruby: Feel free to talk over each other like you normally would too.

Faith: Oh.

Kristin: Gender to me is a system that I use to, I don't know, regulate my moods sometimes. I identify as gender fluid. I feel like it holds a lot of power over my life and the things I do, because I like it too. It's like structure for me sometimes. Ruby, Faith, and I connected over being sad, self-deprecating lesbians, and facing rough things at home. We're over this idea of a fixed, unchanging identity.

Ruby: I feel neutral. There's no reason to identify any specific way for me, because it just doesn't hold authority. I could say I identify as a fucking ghost, and you're just going to have to take my word for it because it's what I say. At the end of the day--

Kai: Did you guys start questioning your gender together as a group, or did it come from something earlier?

Kristin: For me, it was earlier. Growing up, I would watch cartoons with characters where you couldn't tell their genders, and I got really attached to them. There was this show called Code Lyoko, and there was a character named Odd.

Odd Della Robbia: You've got superpowers, telekinesis, super sprint triplicate. Me, I've got zilch.

Kristin: He wore purple crop tops.

Kai: [chuckles]

Kristin: I think because of all of that, I knew I was queer in middle school. Then in high school, the internet gave me a place to explore my gender identity, like forming a person through puzzle pieces. I go on Tumblr, and then I'd follow tags and read fan theories about band members being together, and that led to threads about why my favorite TV show character should be in same sex relationships. From there, I might stumble onto blogs about iconic '90s lesbians.

I'd wait until the last moment to record this diary. Who's a lesbian from the '80s or '90s? Let me Google this, '90s lesbian. Melissa Etheridge releases lesbian anthem Come to My Window. Dyke Punk, what is this?

[music]

Melissa Etheridge: Hold the hand of death. You don't know how far I'd go to this precious lake. You don't know how much I'd go--

Kristin: Oh, this song. Okay, yes. I totally know this song, vaguely. It's not like a bop for me, per say, but yes, this hits.

[music]

Melissa: Come to my window. Come inside.

Kai: Wait. You really don't know who Melissa Etheridge is?

Kristin: Listen, high school was my heyday of music listening, and that was mostly just emo bands.

Kai: [chuckles] She wasn't my thing either, musically, but you have to understand, when she came out, she was one of the first openly gay musicians that still had commercial success. As a consequence, she showed a lot of young women that that was actually possible, just to be a lesbian.

Kristin: That must have been hard for some women, to only have a white rock star to look up to. Now, I can look up to someone like Janelle Monáe. She's a pansexual Black woman, and a fashion icon. Even beyond celebrities, with Instagram, I can follow whoever I want, pretty black girls with acne scars, amateur models from Japan, and gay YouTubers, basically your average icons of gender fluid fashion. Okay, parallel universe, I found you.

Kai: Fashion and style's always been a way for people to say, "No, you can't tell me who I am. I'm going to show you who I am."

Speaker 6: I wear multiple rings, and my finger nails are painted. I'm not wearing my more clear wig by the way.

Kristin: The internet is where you can craft a version of yourself and you figure out who you want to become. For me, I was born and look like a Black girl. I'm 5'7". Most days I wear black lipstick and Dr. Martens and never smile. Some days, I want to look cute, showy, and sweet, and other days I'll feel comfortable. I just want to wear dark clothes and sweatpants, and on another day a button down shirt. It's never tied to a binary feeling.

Speaker 7: Hey. Welcome to Phluid.

Kristin: In lower Manhattan, there's a clothing store without a male or female section. It's called the Phluid Project. There's jean crop tops, platform feelers, and asymmetrical shirts. Even the mannequins are gender-neutral. No sika boobs or weird bulging crotches. Okay, hold on. Okay. Just walk up to him?

Speaker 8: Great.

Kristin: I walk in the store and see this gorgeous person with a soft, androgynous face browsing black shirts in the sportswear section. Can I get your name and age, please?

1. Hawk Snipes: B. Hawk Snipes, and my age is 30 and fabulous.

Kristin: Okay. B. Hawk walked the runway on the TV show Pose last year. I didn't think an actor-model mogul would talk to me. How would you describe your style?

1. Hawk: At this time, I'm going for rich lesbian soccer mom chic. I think that's my aesthetic right now. Yes, that's my look at the march.

Kristin: A rich lesbian soccer mom dressed in all black. By the way, that's the perfect Instagram bio.

1. Hawk: I call humans like Pokémon. We're all changing and evolving every day. I just came out as non-binary last year, which blew my mind because I was like, "I'm just gay." I don't know. I'm an androgynous gay person. When I was on Pose representing as a female figure, and it was the first time people started to hit me up, I was like, "Oh my God. I'm non-binary,' or, "I'm gender non-conforming. I love your character, and I love the role you're playing." I was just like, "I think this is more than a character for me. I think this is really who I am." It took me a minute because even using they/them pronouns, it's triggering, because I'm six months in. It's always--

Kristin: For me, the pronoun they doesn't work. Too awkward. Z seems so new and weird. I like she the most, but if I just use she, it feels like people wouldn't recognize that I'm non-binary. He is complicated for me. Because of how I grew up as a Black little girl around creepy uncles and family friends, I feel like a masculine identity means people might see me as a predator. When it comes to family, it's really hard to have a gender that is neither male nor female. All right. Can you tell me your name and age?

Bronica Banks: For real, my name is Bronica Banks. 27 years old.

Kristin: Can you tell me our relationship?

Bronica: You're my annoying little sister.

Kristin: [laughs] Bronica is one of the few family members that I'm out to as gender fluid. Why do you seem a little annoyed right now?

Bronica: Because you have a microphone in my damn face. [laughs]

Kristin: Sometimes you refer to me as a boy, so I want to ask why is that.

Bronica: First of all, I started saying that because you'll be referring to yourself as a boy. I don't really see you as a boy. It's more of a-- Dang, should I not call you that anymore?

Kristin: It's perfectly fine.

Bronica: Okay. I feel like because you refer to yourself as that, then I probably should have asked you if I was being more emotionally considerate, but it's always in a joking way. I'm very aware of all your femininities, so I am aware that you're not a boy.

Kristin: Sometimes I do feel like a boy, so whenever you call me that, it actually makes me really happy.

Bronica: Okay. I won't make a habit of it but, yes, I'm glad to hear that if I do say that, you wouldn't be offended.

Kristin: I don't need my sister to assure me I'm feminine. I just like that she's aware of how I see myself. Bronica sees gender as a fixed thing. Feminine people have to act soft and delicate, and masculine people have to be brash. Would you say sometimes I dress or act masculine or more boyish?

Bronica: Dress like-- Oh, now after this, since this interview, I don't know. Now, I'm thinking it's not so much about the clothes. It's about that person, how they view themselves, how they perceive themselves.

Kristin: I really like that thought process and where you went right now.

Bronica: I'm not going to say I would have necessarily said that before this interview, but you got my mind now thinking.

Kristin: It's all I want. That's all I want. Last thing, do you think there's anything else you would like to tell me?

Bronica: I love you, Kristin.

Kai: Listening to your sister's-- it just feels like you have a really wonderful and open relationship with her.

Kristin: Yes.

Kai: Is that true for the rest of your family?

Kristin: No. I'm not really in contact with my extended family. With my mom, no, we don't really have that much of an open relationship to talk about things. We've been through a lot of struggles with-- She's a Christian, Jamaican woman, and old traditional values, so there was a lot of fear from me when I was younger to even bring up any parts of my sexuality or gender. She's so overworked, and I just don't want to bring up any uncomfortable conversations that can hurt either of us.

Kai: Right.

Kristin: One night, me, and my sister, and my mom, we got to talking about her beliefs.

Mom: Use us as an example of what we went through.

Kristin: Our family?

Mom: Yes, especially me and you.

Kristin: We were talking about how we went through hard times, and how we were living in a shelter.

Mom: - and God helped. Nobody else helped us but God to provide this roof over our head. You understand?

Kristin: She's super religious. That's complicated for me because I've always heard stories about Jamaicans being really traditional about family in general.

Mom: Growing up as a little girl growing up in Jamaica, I remember there was this guy from our church. He used to act feminine, and he used to do his hand. People used to call him Lady Spencer. As a young girl, I knew, we knew, we all knew he was gay, but nobody stoned him. Now, it's different because no, they will kill you.

Kristin: When I hear something like this, it puts a fear in me. I know I have a privilege of appearing as a cis-feminine woman but, when I hear about this Jamaican culture that my mom comes from, it's still scary to me.

Kai: Yes. Does that mean are you out to her?

Kristin: No. The last thing she knew was that I was bisexual girl, but no. She doesn't know anything about me being non-binary now.

Mom: No parent have a child I wanted to hear the child say, "Okay, I was born a man, but I'm really a woman."

Bronica: Do you expect them to be straight?

Mom: Yes.

Bronica: You expect them both now to be straight?

Mom: You don't really expect, but you want to know that, okay, that my daughter is going to have a husband, people looking forward to grandchildren.

Kristin: That's part of why I haven't come out to her as gender fluid.

Kai: Right, so your family is complicated. I'm wondering if you've ever sought out any mentorship around all of this. For my generation, we didn't have that option quite as much, but it feels like now there's so many out queer people of my age and older. Stonewall happened 50 years ago at this point. Have you ever been able to find someone older who can help you figure this out?

Kristin: No, not at all. I wanted to meet people. I wanted to connect with queer people through this story, and that's what I did. I met this older Black lesbian in Harlem, who was wearing red leather pants.

Kai: Okay. Well, that's after the break.

[music]

Kristin: Could I ask your sexuality?

Paulette Thomas: I'm lesbian.

Kristin: Okay. See, this is the first time I've ever talked to an older Black lesbian before. I've always been around straight adults my whole life, so I don't know. This is really giddy for me.

Paulette: [laughs]

Kristin: I want to ask-- I met Paulette when I went to SAGE, a place in Harlem for older LGBTQ people to meet and mingle. She's the epitome of all struggle stories that you read about in your life. You have to be in the closet. You have to pretend to be straight. Paulette told me she got pregnant at 17, and later she got married in her 20s.

Paulette: It was hard beyond belief. I had to bury who I was.

Kristin: On her wedding day, she felt horribly sick.

Paulette: To live that life, to live a straight life, without understanding that you don't have to, it feel like there's something is not right. There's no balance. I'm out of sorts. To describe it, this is how I describe my life. I was in a manhole going into the ground. I was in that ground with the heaviest and the darkest manhole cover covering my head and I couldn't breathe. It was horrible. It was horrible. It hurts my soul that I did that. I came to understand it was a trade-off. Would I do it again? Never. Never.

Kai: Kristin, listening to that, I wonder, do you get what Paulette's talking about there? Queer people, as a community, we have really fought for the space we have now, both personally and collectively. A lot of people have claimed these labels for themselves at a very real cost. It took bravery for Paulette to say, "I am a lesbian." When we then hear people say, "No, I'm past this labeling thing," it's hard for us to hear it because we fought so hard for those labels and everything that goes with them. Our ability to embrace them has been a big part of our freedom.

Kristin: I get that, but I haven't had that experience. I didn't need a coming out. It's like I dusted myself off. I unlocked a new level in a video game, or I collected enough loot boxes to discover a legendary character. Paulette knows a few of the terms. She's been active in the youth community.

Paulette: We've had to educate ourselves. We've got all these colors and banners and--

Kristin: All the pride flags.

Paulette: Oh, lord. Yes, I just know the rainbow colors.

Kristin: Yes. For transgender, pink is for the female part, blue is for the male part, and then white actually symbolizes non-binary, which falls onto me because I identify as non-binary or gender fluid.

Paulette: What's the point of so much different terminologies and verbiage to say basically the same thing?

Kristin: I think it's just preference at the end of the day. Honestly, I don't know. I used to identify as bisexual, but when I heard pansexual, it just felt better to me because bi uses, like bi, its two, but--

Paulette: Pan means many?

Kristin: Yes.

Paulette: Because, see, in my mind, this is a very good topic for intergenerational conversations. It's important that each generation has a language they can identify with. Back in my day, it was butch fem. Bisexual was just nasty. Sorry, but that's how it was for us.

Kristin: Like promiscuous.

Paulette: Yes. It was just nasty, and you're straight. That was it. You need to have your language to identify with your needs. What they did 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago doesn't, so there's another issue of if you don't have that language, how do you communicate? To have a conversation with someone of your age opens our eyes and our ears to understanding that, yes, it doesn't make sense, but it's not our world to make sense, and it's all good. Thank you.

Kristin: I like that way of looking at things, because it's like I might not understand you, but I still respect that what you're going through is valid.

Paulette: As we're talking, I'm understanding a lot more myself about the pan-- What do you call it? Pan--

Kristin: Pansexual.

Paulette: Pansexual. I think that's the difference with our ages. For me, I like cut and dry. I don't want to be disrespectful, I don't want to judge, so I accept what people say, but I like cut and dry, black and white, in that respect because I have many, many colors. I don't think black and white, but as far as language goes, I need to understand where you're coming from.

[music]

Kristin: Okay. Maybe I don't have cut-and-dry answers, but queerness is just an essential part of my identity as a Black gay, 21-year-old. Maybe I won't always be pansexual and gender fluid. I'm still figuring out dating and all of that, so this period is a necessary stepping stone to what I don't know.

There are days when I wish my gender was like Mr. Potato head. I wish my chest was just an accessory I could Velcro off. By doing so, I wouldn't get rid of my femininity either. Being gender fluid is the perfect way for those two binaries to meet and form something new.

[music]

Kai: I am so here for something new, mixing and remixing ourselves to find what truly fits. That is, as long as we understand the difference between individual freedom of expression and the collective liberation of LGBT people, how we describe and style ourselves in our day-to-day lives, that is not the same thing as the identity we claim and carry into the world.

The latter is a deeply political act. It's about picking a side in the culture war over who gets to be "normal" in our society, and who gets banished to the margins as a deviant. 50 years after Stonewall, that war is very much ongoing. Even as I record this, transgender people are about to lose civil rights protections they've had in health care settings, just as one example.

I worry a great deal about the end of boxes and labels as political tools for protecting the space we've made for ourselves so far, but also I hear Paulette. People now have a whole lot more options for finding and defining themselves, or choosing not to do so at all. That is unquestionably good because the labels we've tried to wrap around are individual expressions of sexuality and gender, they have always felt awkward. These things are just not one size fits all. Here's to more couture choices. That, after all, is exactly the freedom we have spent all these decades trying to create.

[music]

Kai: The Stakes is a production of WNYC studios and the newsroom of WNYC. This episode was reported by Kristin Tomlinson and produced by Jonna McKone. It was edited by Kaari Pitkin. Karen Frillmann is our executive producer. Cayce Means is our technical director. Jim Schachter is Vice President for News at WNYC. The Stakes team also includes--

Amanda Aronczyk: Amanda Aronczyk.

Christopher Johnson: Christopher Johnson.

Jessica Miller: Jessica Miller.

Christopher Werth: Christopher Werth.

Veralyn Williams: Veralyn Williams.

Kai: With help from--

Hannis Brown: Hannis Brown.

Michelle Harris: Michelle Harris.

Karen Frillmann: Karen Frillmann.

Kai: You can join the team by signing up for our newsletter at thestakespodcast.org. You can hit me up on Twitter @kai_wright. A special thanks to the Media Burn Archive and Dave Isay, the founder of StoryCorps, for the archival tape reflecting on Stonewall. To hear more StoryCorps' work, subscribe to the StoryCorps podcast. This season, they're sharing the stories of LQBTQ people across America, those who lived before Stonewall, and those whose lives have been shaped by it. Thanks for listening.

[music]

Voiceover: Radio Rookies is supported in part by the Margaret Neubart Foundation and the Pinkerton Foundation.

 

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