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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now our climate story of the week. If you don't know this yet, we're doing at least one climate segment every week on the show for at least six months, that would be through August, to make sure we center this existential, but slow-moving threat to the degree it deserves, or at least approaching the degree it deserves, even when faster-breaking news might otherwise crowd it out.

Today, one climate issue now in play as New York State's budget negotiations near tomorrow's deadline. You might have heard by now that the number one emitters of carbon in New York State are its buildings. Governor Kathy Hochul is preparing to tackle the issue in the new state budget. The governor has proposed a rule to require all new construction to be zero emissions, notably, no new gas hookups, no later than 2027. Let's take a closer look, including how it may impact New York homeowners and renters with Lisa Dix, New York director of the Building Decarbonisation Coalition. Lisa, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Lisa Dix: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get into the specific item in the budget, can you talk briefly about how buildings in New York create carbon emissions and how big of a problem it really is?

Lisa Dix: Yes. To give a perspective, buildings are the largest emitter of carbon and climate pollution in New York State. They account for about 1/3 of all emissions. Right now, in terms of the overall-- there's an overall target for emissions reduction in New York's landmark climate law, which requires that the state economy-wide hit an 85% emissions reduction by 2050 and 40% in emissions reductions by 2030. Given that the buildings are the largest emitter of climate pollution in the state, getting some focus and some action and getting emissions reduced from our buildings is a top climate priority for the state.

Brian Lehrer: People might be surprised, some people, to hear that buildings are the top carbon emitters in the state. They may think, "Oh, it's cars really. It's power plants." Things like that. When you talk about buildings, are you talking about residential buildings, apartment buildings, and private homes?

Lisa Dix: Yes, we're talking about all of those. New York has over 7 million households and almost nearly 400,000 commercial and institutional buildings. All of these buildings emit carbon. What is needed is some common sense approaches, which both the governor and the Senate are really trying to advance, this legislative session, to reduce those carbon emissions from existing buildings and new construction.

The science is really clear. There are some common sense basic approaches that are necessary and needed, right now, this year, that are going to help reduce those emissions through common-sense energy efficiency, savings, and new appliance standards, to get some of those emissions down in our existing buildings. More importantly, we need to stop digging the climate emissions hole, which when we're building new buildings, we need to stop connecting those buildings to fossil fuels.

Brian Lehrer: Let's talk about each of those. The new construction and then we'll talk about retrofitting existing buildings because everybody listening right now lives somewhere. If the law would require them to actually change how they get any source of power in their homes, that's going to be huge. Let's pick those apart. Let's talk first about new construction. What's in the governor's bill and what would you as an activist like to see in the governor's bill?

Lisa Dix: Well, here-- in the governor's bill, she makes a really common sense, logical first step proposal, which is we need to stop digging the climate emissions hole deeper. What she has put on the table, which is really important and essential, is that beginning in 2024, we need to have all-electric buildings is the proposal, both for the governor and for the Senate. The reason why this is so important is because the state has a climate law with a body called the Climate Action Council. The Climate Action Council has been working for nearly a year, in making recommendations to the state about the most common-sense solutions that are necessary and first-step actions that must be taken.

The Climate Action Council has recommended that in order to really stop digging the hole in climate emissions, we need to now, this year, pass legislation to require all new electric buildings. This is for new construction. When you think about it, Brian, when we build a building and we are continuing to hook these buildings up to the gas system, we are basically continuing this problem for over 20 years because fossil fuel appliances have a 20-year lifespan. This is an easy first step solution, which is in all new construction beginning in 2024, we are not going to be expanding fossil fuel use in our buildings. Now, New York City--

Brian Lehrer: When you say all-electric buildings, does that mean no more gas stoves and also no more oil heat or the heat would be electric as well?

Lisa Dix: Correct. It would be oil gas heat, so fossil fuel heating, so no more of that, and all-electric appliances.

Brian Lehrer: You were saying in New York City compared to the rest of the state?

Lisa Dix: Yes. I was just going to say in New York City. I just want to remind the listeners that in New York City there's a new local law, that it passed in December of last year, landmark law, which basically required all-electric new construction. New York City has already taken this bold action to stop digging the climate hole deeper and to also help protect our public health from the emissions and climate pollution that are impacting our communities and all New Yorkers. This common-sense approach has already been done in the city. Now the proposal on the table in this legislative session from the governor and from the Senate is to make this happen this year in the budget.

Brian Lehrer: How much less bad for the climate is electric heat and electric stoves compared to the gas or oil ones because electricity has to be generated somehow and those are usually climate polluting processes too?

Lisa Dix: Those are both excellent questions. Let's break this down. First, to your first question. Let's talk about the emission savings just from new construction. There has been a recent analysis by the Rocky Mountain Institute that basically looked at what an emissions reduction would look like in terms of new construction from a combination of the state proposal, the governor and the Senate's proposal in this legislative session, and combined with the New York City Law, the all-electric new buildings law that passed in December. That would be 6 million metric tons of carbon reduction. Just to give you a perspective of what that is, that is equivalent to 870,000 cars off the road for just one year.

Just by making this simple act, then we are really, really getting a significant reduction in both climate pollution and air quality enhancement in terms of really making sure that our communities are being protected from air pollution that our building's emissions are causing. Now, in response to the question of, "Well, if this is all-electric, we need to have a clean electric grid because this is where we get our electricity." One of the top strategies of decarbonizing our buildings in New York is through electrification.

There's a couple of things I want to point out here. The state has made huge progress in really greening New York's grid. New York has a requirement that by 2030, 70% of New York's grid will be renewable, so our electricity, 70% of it will become from renewable resources, and that's like solar--

Brian Lehrer: 70% of the electric grid from renewable energy sources by 2030, and that would be a big change. I have a stat in front of me. You probably know this, but listeners you may not. According to the US energy information administration, the three major categories of energy for electricity are fossil fuels, coal, natural gas, and petroleum, plus nuclear energy and renewable energy sources. Of those three, fossil fuels, nuclear, and renewables, only about 20% of total US electricity generation came from renewables in 2020. Only 20% nationally currently and you're saying it would be 70% in New York state by 2030 if they follow what they've set out for themselves. That's pretty big.

Lisa Dix: Yes, it's monumental. I just want to also say that there is over 100 projects renewable large-scale renewable projects that are moving forward and being constructed and interconnected to our electric grid. We've got a huge huge offshore wind projects that are going to be off our shores in Long Island in New York City. Both of these technologies, all of these renewable technologies, are going to be working together to source all of that renewable energy.

Right now, there is not an issue with electrifying new buildings. In fact, just a recent study by Urban Green said that New York City's power demand could grow by 42%, meaning that we could electrify a lot of buildings before there was even a problem for the grid. What the listeners need to just consider is that by the time there would be any shifts in the grid and any things that would need to be addressed, we're going to hit these targets in New York to have our grid sourced with renewable energy.

The grid, I know that the, "Oh, we need to make sure that our grid is clean before we electrify our buildings," is the common argument but it's not an argument that needs to really delay these common-sense actions that the governor and the Senate are trying to advance this session.

Brian Lehrer: Lisa, you'll be interested to know that this is one of those few segments where before I even give out the phone number to the listeners, all our lines are full with people who want to comment or ask about it. I guess people are appreciating that we're doing this climate story of the week every week on the show and certainly are interested in this topic of building decarbonization in New York state, and the things that New York city passed recently and that the state is considering in the budget that's due tomorrow.

My guest, if you're just joining us, is Lisa Dix, New York director of the Building Decarbonization Coalition. Before we take a few phone calls, let me go to that other major pillar of this. We talked about the requirement in the emerging bill for all new buildings to be electric-only utilities. How about retrofitting? What does the New York City law require? What is the state considering for people who currently heat or cook with fossil fuels?

Lisa Dix: Yes. Thank you for asking this question. It's really really important and it's really complex. I will try to answer it as clearly as I can. I want to just really impress upon listeners that there's nothing in any of the legislation or any of the proposals that the governor has on the table that are going to require people having their fossil fuel appliances taken away. I know that there's a lot of gas industry misinformation out there, and this is just simply not true. There's a really important provision in the governor's budget proposal that is going to update our appliance efficiency and require some new appliance efficiency standards.

These are really common sense and important provisions because not only are they going to save New Yorkers over $15 billion in energy costs, but they are necessary to really address how we're really going to move forward the strategy for existing buildings. The other issue is that there are a lot of really great incentives that are out there right now through the utilities. With ConEd and the Long Island Power Authority and other utilities, all the utilities across the state that provide incentives and rebates. If your gas heater goes out, you will be able to have a choice, an actual consumer choice, to make a different decision about how you want to heat your home.

There's those rebates and incentives that are available right now, we definitely need to up the ante over time, and this is going to be a work in progress. Right now, we're just talking about the basic, commonsense, rational first steps this year. Obviously, we have a ton more work to do over the years to get to a zero-carbon building sector by the climate laws dates.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Troy in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Troy, Hi.

Troy: Hi good morning, Brian. I just had a question because a lot of these things are great ideas and good intentions, but for real-life people that work in the city or own their home or pay rent, the utility prices have gone up astronomically, to me, almost double. Also, the adverse effect on poor and working-class people as far as when you transition to these all-electric buildings which if we are trying to find affordable housing it's only going to skyrocket the prices of housing because all those costs are going to be passed on to tenants. As well as most of these buildings because I lived in one before where everything was electric, the appliances were horrible.

Also, the insulation was horrible, so now you have a four steer system that when you turn it off, it's not long before it gets cold because it's forced air, and it's easy to get cooler with poor insulation in the windows and all the other things, cheaper windows. There is-- you know what I'm saying, I don't know if all of these things are fully thought out but it's going to adversely affect more people as far as the consumer. On the consumer end then, I don't know what the overall goal is going to be.

Brian Lehrer: All really fair questions. Troy, please keep calling us. Let's take his couple of questions there. One is the quality of the all-electric appliances. You heard those details, and the other is affordability. Is this going to be more expensive in a city where housing costs and inflation generally are already at crisis levels?

Lisa Dix: Well, thank you for that question, Troy. I think it is super important and we always have to keep our- we really have to keep this front and center affordability and costs. In terms of new construction, and I'm just going to really start there first, there are not increased costs. It's going to be associated with new construction. The New York State Energy Research Development Authority, NYSERDA, has done significant modeling and analysis on this very question of costs, and costs for new construction. In terms of cost for new construction, there are really not significant increases in costs, when we're just starting to build buildings like this.

Troy mentions a really important point, which is that some of the existing buildings, there needs to be a lot of weatherization. I call it electric ready, so we need to get these existing buildings electric ready, whether those are updates to electric panels so those buildings homes can be electrified. There's all of those things that absolutely need to happen, but in terms of new construction, there's not a cost issue. Now, let's talk a little bit about how are we going to help manage costs in existing buildings.

The governor has a proposal. She put this out in the state of the state, which is a 2 million all-electric and all-electric ready proposal. The goal would be to have at least 1 million all-electric homes by 2030 and 1 million electric-ready homes. There are a lot of opportunities with this policy for a lot of funding to go into existing buildings, especially affordable housing, and also assistance to homeowners to be able to help get their homes electric-ready and energy-efficient.

That over time, say, when their water heater goes out or their furnace would go out and there is an option to choose a heat pump or a heat pump water heater, for example, choose technologies that are electric, then there's going to be those rebates associated with that. There'll be existing assistance for existing homeowners to make sure that their homes are electric-ready, weatherized, and energy-efficient to be able to drive down those costs over time.

I want to make one more quick point here.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Lisa Dix: The reason why we're seeing this huge spike in energy bills this winter, this is not a product of New York's climate policy. This is a product of New York's over-reliance on fossil fuels. This is what the governor and the legislature, the Senate in particular, are trying to really start figuring out this constant issue with spiking utility bills, which is gas volatility. When you have international situations, security situations like we're seeing now, this is when we're all going to suffer because we're all at the mercy of the gas industry and the volatility that it's associated with natural gas prices.

Brian Lehrer: Some related pushback though from a number of tweet, and I'll throw in one caller here. Listener writes, "With regard to electric buildings, I have friends who go elsewhere in the summer, not because they're snowbirds, but because they live in electric buildings in Westchester and can't afford the air conditioning. It's cheaper to leave for the summer." I guess that's for some people. Another listener writes on Twitter, "Does the New York City climate plan include break up of single-family zoning? It's far more efficient to heat or cool or water a multifamily building versus a single-family home."

Another one, "Question for Lisa," that says, they even got your name right, "If the current grid is threatened during heat waves such that we're encouraging to turn off air conditioners, how can it possibly handle 24/7 heating needs of all-electric buildings all winter? Summer blackouts are inconvenient. Winter means people will freeze." Then one more tweet. "It sounds too good to be true. I could not replace my gas stove by an electric one because not enough or proper power." That's a lot there. I'm going to throw one more onto the pile here, and that's going to be a caller. Mark in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mark.

Mark: Yes. Hi. I'm Mark. Thank you, Brian, for this series, and, Lisa, thank you so much for your service. Just to qualify, I'm driving in my electric car from Hudson to the city. I'm an early adopter of EV, I charge with solar, our house is solar, my last house was solar, heat pumps want to put a plugin for NYSERDA intended, worked with them twice. Fantastic, fantastic work they do. My dilemma is, and it's maybe a little nuanced, but I think it affects the bigger question when it comes to restaurants. I do like cooking over an open flame and in my case, a gas stove. What solutions do we have looking forward for restaurants, for domestic use like myself where you just like cooking over fire?

Brian Lehrer: Mark, thank you very much. I know that's a whole lot of questions on the table all at once, Lisa. We've got about two minutes left in the segment, but they're all in one way or another about the price and the quantity of electric heating and air conditioning sources, and the quality of cooking. Mark's not the only person who's called in recently concerned about the electric stove. Just that it's just not as good cooking as with a flame.

Lisa Dix: It's a question that comes up a lot. Saying all of those. Thank you. Let me just start with Mark's question. Mark, have you ever tried an induction stove? They're excellent. I really want to put a plug out for induction. Try it and see if you still love your gas stove as much.

The next points that I really want to really address is, first, I recognize that I want to just put perspective for listeners. Look, we have got a lot to do. We really do. I don't want to really candy-coat all of this that this is not going to be something that is really difficult, but I know that we can do it. What is on the table right now is really just the first step to help address all of the questions, and all good and fair ones that the listeners are making, which is that we need to get more efficient homes, really in terms of existing buildings, we need to think about how we're going to drive down costs over time.

In terms of the question about blackouts, this is a definite scare tactic that's often repeated over and over by the gas industry. I think there are two different issues. When we're talking about electrifying our buildings, it's a technical issue. In the summer, there's what's called a summer peak issue, and there's a few days where everyone's running their air conditioner and then it really puts some pressure on the grid, right?

Brian Lehrer: Right. Those 90 degree-plus days, that kind of thing. We've got one minute left. Tell us what the winter equivalent is or not as you see it.

Lisa Dix: The winter equivalent is right now, we have plenty of headroom on our grid for what's called winter peaking. We're not in a winter peaking situation and we won't be in a winter peaking situation for over 10 years given the analysis. Electrifying our buildings because this is really predominantly about winter heating and the winter peak, we're not in a blackout territory situation.

I just really want to remind folks that right now we are just talking about what we can do to stop expanding the gas system, stop subjecting all of us to volatile spiking energy costs year after year, and really figuring out what are the common sense first-step approach, which is to start in new construction, all-electric new construction beginning in 2024. We know that we need to get the governor's proposals and the senator's proposal over the finish line to update our efficiency standards and our appliance standards so that we can begin to start to tackle this problem in a rational way, and that we can get the policies in place that all of your listeners care so much about.

Brian Lehrer: That's our climate story of the week for this week on The Brian Lehrer Show. As Lisa was just referring to there at the end of that last answer, the hook this week is the New York state budget, which is due for the new fiscal year that begins tomorrow on tomorrow, April 1st. We'll see how much of this building electrification for new construction and for retrofitting emerges from the final bill. Lisa Dix, New York Director of the Building Decarbonization Coalition. Thank you so much for coming on and talking through all this. We really appreciate the level of detail and a good conversation.

Lisa Dix: Thank you, Brian. It was my pleasure.

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