Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Would you go to a casino in Times Square alongside the hotel and Casino company, Caesars Entertainment? New York City's largest commercial landlord, SL Green is behind a new proposal to build a hotel in Times Square.

This consortium is one of a number of groups bidding for one of three gambling licenses for downstate New York, but a coalition of Broadway theater owners, restaurateurs, and at least one church, have united an opposition to a Times Square casino. Among their concerns are the prospect of increased congestion and potential harm to the bottom lines of businesses already there.

We'll explore that and see where things stand on the push to build casinos in New York City now with New York Times metro reporter, Dana Rubenstein, whose article on the conflict over the Times Square Casino proposal begins this way. It says, "Some New Yorkers may love Times Square. Some definitely hate it. That also goes for a casino that may be headed there." By the way, do any New Yorkers actually love Times Square? Anyway, Dana, welcome back to WNYC. Hi there.

Dana Rubinstein: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Who's proposing what kind of casino for Times Square?

Dana Rubinstein: SL Green, which is the-- it describes itself as the city's largest commercial landlord, and Caesars, and also Roth Nation, which is backed by Jay-Z, are proposing to build a casino in Times Square in the skyscraper whose base houses the Mitsoff Theater where The Lion King is performed.

Brian Lehrer: The No Time Square Casino Community Coalition, as they call themselves, has formed to block this proposal. Who comprises this group?

Dana Rubinstein: That's right. It's largely spearheaded by the Broadway League, which represents theater owners and producers. They have support in their opposition to the casino from some local restaurateurs like the owner of Sardis, from residents including the Residents Association at Manhattan Plaza, which is a very large affordable housing development that largely houses people in the industry, artists and actors. They, and apparently after the article ran, more people have signed on to the coalition. The opposition is well-defined and seemingly growing.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, you can be part of this conversation. Would you be a yes or no on a Times Square casino, or do you shrug and say, "I don't really care. It's so crowded and noisy and overlighted anyway." Should New York City have a casino in Times Square? Should New York City have casinos at all? If so, since there are going to be three downstate one way or another, where do you think they should go? 212-433-WNYC for New York Times Metro Reporter, Dana Rubenstein. 212-433-9692, if anybody wants to weigh in on this.

I was thinking about the Broadway theaters as an opposition group to this, and I guess it surprises me in one way. I could see the restaurants in the area thinking, "Oh, this is going to be a big behemoth that's going to come in and be a lot of competition for us.

I wonder why the theater community would not want to make the crossroads of the World Times Square even more of a tourist destination because hasn't attendance never fully recovered on Broadway since the start of the pandemic?

Dana Rubinstein: That's true. I think their argument is that a casino would make Times Square less compelling, less attractive to the people who do attend Broadway shows. They didn't articulate this, though. I suspect it's also part of their rationale. Many casinos have in-house entertainment. Perhaps there's some concern that as with the restaurants, that people go to casinos and then they just stay in the casinos. They eat there, they watch entertainment there, and they don't really need to avail themselves of anything outside of the building.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I guess that's true. Now that you say it of let's say Las Vegas casinos, Atlantic City casinos, you get big mega A-list headline acts playing there.

Dana Rubinstein: Right.

Brian Lehrer: That would happen in Times Square too.

Dana Rubinstein: Well, Rock Nation is part of the bidding group along with SL Green and Caesars. Rock Nation's the entertainment company backed by Jay-Z. They haven't been all that specific about what their entertainment plans are, but it's probably safe to assume that they will be ambitious.

Brian Lehrer: I see the Times Square Casino proposal is one of a number of proposals for downstate casinos. The state approved the issuance of up to three licenses last year, and you report there have been no fewer than eight proposals. Who's the competition for Times Square?

Dana Rubinstein: Oh gosh, there's so many people eager to cash in on this prize. The related companies, the developer of Hudson Yards is partnering with Wynn to bid for a casino over the still undeveloped western portion of the Hudson Yards, where they have also promised to put housing, including affordable housing and a school and green space. It's unclear how those would all coexist. There isn't a lot of detail yet. Steve Cohen, the owner of the Mets, is in talks with Hard Rock about a bid to put a casino next to City Field in Queens. There's a bid for a casino in Coney Island.

There's a bid for a casino at the Fair Point Golf course that is controlled by the Trump organization in the Bronx. Where else? There's one Las Vegas Sans wants to put one in Nassau County at the Coliseum. Aqueduct at sorry, [unintelligible 00:06:33] which controls the Aqueduct Racing in Queens wants a casino license. MGM wants one in Yonkers. Honestly, there's no shortage of contenders. It's going to be a super fierce competition and there's likely a couple of other contenders that haven't even been announced yet.

Brian Lehrer: No shortage of real estate moguls who want to add [chuckles] a downstate casino to their portfolio. Who decides in the long run?

Dana Rubinstein: It's a very complicated approvals process, but basically once the bids are in, there's no deadline yet for that to happen. It's expected to happen in the next several months. Then each proposal will be given a community advisory committee. Basically, there will be a site-specific committee made up of representatives from all of the various elected officials in the area who will then have to deliberate and vote on their support or lack thereof for a particular casino proposal. Only if two-thirds of this six-member committee votes to move forward with the proposal, will it move then to a larger entity called- I'm going to screw up the name, but it's a state entity that's called the Gaming Facility Location Board.

They will make the final decision. They'll refer their decision to the New York State Gaming Commission, which will then make the final, final decision, and then the casinos will be built.

Brian Lehrer: It may surprise you or it may not surprise you, that we have a whole board full of callers with opinions-

Dana Rubinstein: [laughs] Not surprising.

Brian Lehrer: -about downstate casinos, Dana Rubenstein, New York Times Metro Reporter, my guest as she updates us on the competition for the three downstate New York Casino licenses that the state approved last year. We started by talking about the No Times Square Casino Coalition, the opposition group, including Broadway Theaters and others around there.

And you probably just heard Dana List some of the other places that are bidding for casino licenses. We have a lot of people with opinions. Let's start with Steven in Highland Park in Jersey. You're on WNYC. Hi, Steven.

Steven: Hello. How are you? Thank you for taking my call. I like going to casinos. I go to casinos often. I think having a casino in New York City is a terrible idea. I think I've seen it in Philadelphia and elsewhere, but when you have a casino in a city center, the poorest and the least informed go flock to it because they can get to it. It's too available and it becomes a real problem. You're taking advantage of the people who can least afford to go to a casino. When it's out a bit and it's a little bit more difficult to get to, then that tends to control this factor. I've seen it. I think it's a really terrible idea.

Brian Lehrer: What's the draw for you as a casino goer, because a lot of the listeners--

Steven: I like it.

Brian Lehrer: -are like, "No, I hate the whole idea"?

Steven: I enjoy the game. Now I'm a little bit smarter. I'm sorry to say so, but I think I'm a little bit smarter than most players [laughter]. I choose--

Brian Lehrer: The house will be the judge of that, but go ahead.

Steven: I'm fully aware of the house advantage, but I choose the ones that I know where their advantage is least. I play table games and I see people make bets that are just stupid, to tell you the truth. It's such a poor bet because they could basically make lots of money. I know what I'm doing, I really do. I realize I'm spending money, but I enjoy the process. I enjoy the activity of going to it, and that's why I go. It's my entertainment. Other people go and they think they're going to make money, and that's really [unintelligible 00:10:31]--

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Here, he raises a couple of interesting things there, Dana. I don't know if you've reported out this aspect of it, but what people actually go to casinos for, Steven, obviously, it sounds like he limits how much money he's going to lose, and he likes the gamesmanship of it. He likes the actual gaming. Is that why people go to casinos?

Dana Rubinstein: I suppose so. Other people go, I suppose because they're addicted. I'm not sure the data bears out what he said about urban casinos attracting more people with limited means than elsewhere, because they're certainly free buses that transport people from New York City to Upstate existing casinos. Those people are offered vouchers to get on the bus, and they trade those vouchers for the ability to gamble, and these are not people with money. I suspect that's just a constant aspect of the casino business model.

Certainly, one of the purported selling points for many of the bids in Manhattan is that the developers claim that they will appeal to a higher-end customer. They're making that pitch because they recognize that many elected officials are a little bit queasy about what they perceive as the predatory regressive nature of casino gambling.

Brian Lehrer: That's half the calls we're getting, it's about the predatory nature of casino gambling, so let's take one of those calls. Here is, let's see, should I take Sara in Brooklyn or Larry and Brooklyn? Eeny, meeny, miny, Sara, you're on WNYC, hi.

Sara: Hi, there. Thanks so much for taking my call. I'm wondering if there's going to be some also built-- First of all, I'm completely against it, a born and raised New Yorker, but will there be somewhere that people who have a gambling addiction, who are now currently on the verge of losing their home and adding to the homeless population, maybe we could build something for them because why is this all about the money and the developer? Develop some play space for children. Develop green space. We don't need another casino in New York, and definitely don't need one in Times Square.

Brian Lehrer: Sara, thank you very much. Well, what was the rationale of the state, Dana, for approving casinos in the first place?

Dana Rubinstein: Yes, that's a good moment to mention that. The rationale is revenue. The state is facing the fall off of federal aid tied to the pandemic, and also the prospect of declining commercial real estate revenue from landlords whose buildings have a lot of empty spaces in them with the decline of the five-day workweek.

The idea is that the revenue that is generated by these casinos will go to support, among other things, the MTA, which is facing a real existential crisis right now because of the decline and the five-day commute and its heavy reliance on farebox revenue. Really, it's a bid for money. The minimum bid to attain a license in the New York City area will be $500 million, and that's the minimum. There there will be or is likely to be a bidding war. The state is likely to look favorably upon those who promised the most money.

Brian Lehrer: There's going to be a bidding war, like Steve Cohen might engage in a bidding war for Shohei Otani next year for the New York Mets? There's going to be a bidding war among these big developers to pay how many hundreds of thousands of dollars versus your how many hundreds of thousands of dollars to the state?

Dana Rubinstein: Hundreds of millions.

Brian Lehrer: Hundreds of millions?

Dana Rubinstein: Yes. That's certainly a possibility, yes, because the state has really emphasized that this is a revenue-generating scheme. How they end up weighing the size of the bids, which are again a minimum of 500 million versus other factors like the desire for economic development in particular parts of the city, I mean, it totally remains to be seen, but it does seem likely that there will be some one-upmanship on that front.

Brian Lehrer: Here is a supporter of a Times Square casino. Hillary in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Hillary.

Hillary: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I just wanted to speak to perspective. I used to work for the Times Square [unintelligible 00:15:36] and to be clear, I have no idea who their board is or where they stand on the topic, but having seen what goes on in Times Square, I think for this coalition to ignore what's already going on in Times Square is to completely ignore what the culture actually is there.

There are adult clubs that still exist. There's Dave and Busters, how is this different from any of that? It's also maybe a little bit out of touch with younger populations who might be really interested to visit Jay-Z's new casino in Times Square. It would be a really great draw to upgrade the culture in Times Square.

Brian Lehrer: What's your take, Hillary, on why so many businesses in the Times Square area are opposing it?

Hillary: A lot of the callers who have already identified a lot of those issues, I think there is a homeless issue. There's a drug epidemic in the city, and it's not unique to Times Square, but I think it's really easy for the NIMBYs to say, "Not here." Also, just coming from an organizational background with the Alliance, I can see how there could be plenty of partnership opportunities between the casino and Broadway, and maybe there's just a little bit of a communication gap that could be solved somehow, or even building in incentives to draw New Yorkers to the casino back to Times Square and think about it as like a form of revitalization.

I get the side from the state saying, "Hey, this is a revenue opportunity," just being out of touch with the younger population and saying, "It's not Broadway culture." Broadway doesn't own Times Square. New Yorkers own Times Square.

Brian Lehrer: This is another radio moment that deserves recognition. Hillary in Queens calls to promote the casino for Times Square with her baby-making radio debut in the background.

[laughter]

Hillary: It's Joseph's birthday today. He's three.

Brian Lehrer: So not a baby.

Dana Rubinstein: Happy birthday.

Brian Lehrer: How will you feel when Joseph grows up and says, "Mom, I want to go to the casino"?

Hillary: [laughs] Well, I'll be taking him back home to New Mexico where there are plenty of casinos that are actually owned by native populations, which is a completely different topic, [unintelligible 00:18:07] [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Hillary, thank you very much, and good luck to Joseph and you. Happy birthday, Joseph. How many Hillary in Queens are there out there? People from, let's say, the Times Square community writ large who want the casino?

Dana Rubinstein: There's plenty of people on that side of the debate, too. Times Square has not yet fully recovered from the ravages of the pandemic. It's taken big steps in that direction, but it's not there yet. I spoke to one restaurant owner who owns Backall's Steakhouse which opened five years ago, which is obviously really bad timing as far as the pandemic is concerned. Employs like 150 people and is still trying to make a go of it.

The foot traffic is down. He doesn't have access to the same lunch crowd during the week that he did before when everyone was going to the office. There's so many different sides to this argument and you can find so many of the different arguments compelling, but there's definitely a not insignificant cohort that would like to see a casino in Times Square because they believe it will help bring the neighborhood back.

Brian Lehrer: One more. John in Babylon with a story from another city that tried this, I think. John, you're on WNYC. Hello.

John: Hi. Great to talk to you guys. I used to live in Chicago and I remember when Rahm Emanuel wanted to put casinos in Chicago, there were a lot of reports that I read that said the crime rises when a casino goes into a neighborhood and actually there was a loss in overall jobs, number of jobs in neighborhoods where casinos went in. I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember that that slows down the development of casino in downtown Chicago in the loop or in River North. I think it's going forward again, but I just remember that was something really that people were not interested in because it's going to hurt not help.

The other thing is, even though there is a small adult portion of Time Square, but Time Square has really become a family destination where tourists come with their families. Casinos just bring in a strange different vibe, a strange different zeitgeist to the neighborhood where it's a different kind of clients and a different clientele. I just don't know what that's going to do to really help bring Times Square back. It's a short-term thing. I don't think it's a big long term. Sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Yes. It's a great point about what Time Square has become. I know it's a bunch of things. If there's been a public conversation lamenting what Time Square is over the last, what, 20 years, it's been the Disneyfication of Times Square that people, all their eyes at.

Dana Rubinstein: That's right. Now, there's some fear that a casino will reverse that, which-- No one really likes Time Square from New York City, it'd be it for the desertification or for the grime. You can argue it either way.

Brian Lehrer: Or the combination.

Dana Rubinstein: Yes. SL Green is aware of this belief that casinos bring crime. They've actually hired Bill Bratton, the former police commissioner to develop a security plan that they say will deal with those issues.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing. John mentioned, Mayor Rahm Emanuel in Chicago being for it at that time. Mayor Adams has spoken positively, as I understand it, about the prospect of casinos in and around New York City. You and your colleagues at the Times mentioned in a story that Adams has deep ties to the gambling industry. Will that be relevant here?

Dana Rubinstein: That remains to be seen. On these sites specific committees that will be required to vote up or down on the casinos, the mayor has only one of six votes, but he does have a lot of moral authority, a big voice that is likely to influence how other committee members view this whole thing, particularly when you have so many different proposals that will be competing for approval. He could prove influential, but it's not really clear.

What is clear is that he does support casinos coming to New York City. He did share the casino gaming committee when he was in the state legislature. He does have a very good friend who was working for Resorts World in Queens at the same time that he was working for the mayor's office. He is, generally speaking a booster for casinos.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We will see what happens with the three downstate casino licenses that the state is going to award to some three people or some three businesses, and how the debate goes over Time Square or other proposed locations. New York Times Metro reporter Dana Rubinstein. Thanks, Dana.

Dana Rubinstein: Thanks so much for having me, Brian.

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