Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. If you go into prison with a certain amount of cash in your pocket, you're supposed to get that cash when you're released, but that might've been the case a few decades ago. Increasingly jails and prisons issue prepaid debit cards or so-called prison release cards when you get out instead of your cash. The problem, according to complaints and numerous lawsuits, these cards are riddled with hidden transaction fees.

Imagine paying $12 to activate your bank card. A dollar every time you make a purchase or nearly $3 anytime you want to make a withdrawal at an ATM. Those high fees are hard for anyone to stomach, but especially difficult if you're newly out of prison and trying to get your footing. Prison release cards are just one example of how private companies that contract with jails and prisons can make money by offering financial services to incarcerated people who don't have other choices.

With me now to talk more about what it means when prison is also your bank is Bianca Tylek Executive Director of Worth Rises, and Paul Wright, Founder, and Executive Director of the Human Rights Defense Center and editor of Prison Legal News. This segment, as many of you may know is part of our series with the Green Space and the Group Worth Rises about the business side of the prison industry. There will be another Green Space event on this tomorrow night we'll tell you about that. Paul, welcome to WNYC. Bianca, welcome back.

Bianca Tylek: Thank you so much-- [crosstalk]

Paul Wright: Hi, thanks for having us on the show.

Brian: Paul, you've written extensively about these prison release cards, are they issued by banks with names that listeners might recognize?

Paul: No, that's part of the thing. Basically, to the extent that large banks were involved in doing this, they got sued and quickly exited it a couple of years ago. Now it's pretty much pretty obscure banks that no one's really heard of. It's three companies that dominate the landscape on this area. Basically, one of them is called Rapid Financial the other one is called JPay and the other one was called Numi. These three companies pretty much have a lock on the debit card market for prisoners.

It's important to note that this is didn't even exist say as recently as 15 years ago, it's something that was created out of a whole cloth. For literally hundreds of years, people were booked in the jails with cash on them, or they got out of prison and they either got their cash back, or they were given a check and this industry sprouted up with the idea of taking people's money when they're getting out of prison or jail and giving them a debit card and charging them a lot of fees for the privilege of doing so. The critical thing is the consumers have no choice in this. These cards are literally being hoisted on people at gunpoint and their money's being taken from them.

Brian: Paul, why is it like this? Who authorizes these special unknown banks to basically rip off incarcerated and post-incarcerated people like this with fees that they don't charge anyone else?

Paul: Basically, the government does. It's the prisons and the jails that contract with these companies and they issue these monopoly contracts to them. The government is the one that's okaying it. It's important to note that the government has a legal obligation to safeguard the money and the property of the people it takes into custody and when it releases people from custody. Literally, the arguments they've tried to make is that somehow a fee-laden debit card is the same as cash, which I don't think anyone who has a dollar in their pocket would agree with that.

Brian: Listeners, as we continue to cover the business side of the prison industry, are you relating to any of this? Who's listening who may be received a debit card when you left prison or jail and can talk about the kinds of fees that maybe you were surprised to find that they charged you? Who has a personal story? 646-435-7280. Did you have to pay to just activate the card to get your money off the card or any other fees you weren't expecting? 646-435-7280, or maybe anybody who works in the business or works for one of these banks or works in the corrections side of things, as a corrections officer and knows about this or anybody in the government.

We can also take your call if you want to talk about another aspect of financial services and people who are incarcerated or post-incarcerated, maybe you have a friend or a family member in prison, and you're forced to pay a fee whenever you make a deposit into their account. How much is that fee? Let other people know. We also want to hear from you about your stimulus checks.

If you or a loved one is incarcerated have they been receiving stimulus payments this year if they were otherwise eligible for them or have they been delayed or portions even garnished by the prison system? We can get into that. Tell us your story. 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. Paul Wright, Founder, and Executive Director of the Human Rights Defense Center and editor of Prison Legal News, and Bianca Tylek from Worth Rises. Bianca, how prevalent are the use of these kinds of cards we've been talking with Paul within the carceral system, and how much of a choice do people getting released from jail or prison have about whether they want their money on these cards or in some other form?

Bianca: Yes, sure. I think in terms of the cards, in particular, it's an important thing to know that part of that business model requires a lot of people being released from prison or released from jail in order to be issuing debit-release cards. Where they're actually most popular is in local jails where there's high admissions and high releases. Essentially, they profit most off of people who are arrested for low-level offenses who might have some cash in their pocket that gets booked into the jail.

Then, they're hoping, these companies are hoping for short stays and those people being released and essentially now they've confiscated that money. The more and more that happens, the more profitable it is. The companies themselves have admittedly said prisons, meaning state prisons where people have much longer stays and admissions are far lower and releases are lower, are actually not their bread and butter. It's not where they seek to expand because it doesn't feed their business model. It's pretty crazy I think to think that there are particular businesses in this prison industry that are intentionally designed to take advantage of people with low-level offenses in the system who are not even convicted of crimes

Brian: Since you and I have talked so much in this series about private prisons and what goes on at some of them, as opposed to the publicly run ones, are these used the same in both public and private facilities, or is this kind of squeezing of the prisoners, nickel and diming them at every time, more likely to take place in a privately run prison or jail?

Bianca: Again, I think that it's not really dependent on whether it's privately operated or not, but the type of facility, so where you have a privately operated jail, they're just as likely to exist as where you have a publicly operated jail and then they're less likely to exist at the prison level. The distinction as to whether something's a public or private prison isn't really wholly relevant here as it isn't in many of the services that we talked about when it comes to exploitation beyond the operation of the facility.

Brian: Let's take a phone call. Here is Eleanor in Rocklin County. Hi, Eleanor, you're on WNYC.

Eleanor: Hi, Brian, thank you for taking my call.

Brian: Certainly.

Eleanor: I correspond with an inmate at Sing Sing prison who's an artist and I've tried to raise funds for him to be able to buy art supplies. I can only send $100 at a time through JPay and they charge $6 for every transaction. That's the tip of the iceberg dealing with everything over there, but that's all I wanted to say.

Brian: Thank you very much. Okay. There's one story, $6 for every transaction. It sounds like-- Linda in Fairfield, Connecticut, you're on WNYC. Hi, Linda.

Linda: Hi. How are you?

Brian: Good, what you got?

Linda: My husband was incarcerated in 2014 for a DUI. He had alcohol problems and I understand he paid his debt to society. There's no argument there. He was issued, I believe it was JPay when he was released and he had all these fees. He tried to cash it out, but my bigger concern was that he took his own life in October, partially due to alcoholism. Instead of getting the help he needed through the prison system, he was just incarcerated, but I'm going through his estate and trying to settle all that in the state of Connecticut sends me a $9,000 bill for his incarceration, which apparently 49 states pay you to be incarcerated.

You have to pay for your incarceration fees, which I had no idea was happening. Thankfully, the bill isn't the difference between me and my kids eating, but for a lot of people I would imagine it would be a devastating thing and they can take up to half of the estate, which again, that doesn't affect me that much, but I find it crazy that they can do that. It's because of the privatization of the prison systems, we pay taxes to keep the prisons going, and then they pay their debt to society, they're released and then they get a bill from the state for the time that they were incarcerated.

Brian: It's the rationale, Linda, supposed to be that incarceration costs the public money via their tax dollars and so to the extent that individuals who commit crime and incur those expenses to the extent that they have money, that they should pay the taxpayers back for their incarceration?

Linda: I would imagine that's the rationale that is why it's politically popular, that this is the norm, it's the norm that they do this. Again, the taxes are paid for the prison system and then we, the state of Connecticut, which is where I am pays this private company to run the prisons for my husband's DUI incarceration. Then we have to pay $9,000 for a relatively short amount of time for his incarceration.

Brian: Linda, thank you.

Linda: Sure.

Brian: No, go ahead.

Linda: It's just that I feel like we're paying-- For people who can't afford this, it's like they pay their debts to society, and then they have to keep paying financially. Their family has to pay after they die. It just seems ridiculous.

Brian: Linda, I'm sorry for your loss. Good luck to you and your family and your kids. Bianca, do you want to get in on that? I think Linda revealed something that many, many listeners didn't know about.

Bianca: Yes. I have so many thoughts on both calls that just came in. I want to send Linda all of our blessings to you and your family for that tragedy. I'm very interested in this because there are really different parameters in every single state regarding this type of labor. Actually, in Connecticut, there aren't any privately run facilities. I'd be interested in what specific issue where this cost is coming from. It may be one that is like a charge for pay that does happen, we call it pay to stay.

In a lot of places it may also be a fine or restitution that was paid to the state. The fact that it's getting charged against an estate is pretty wild. We do a lot of work in Connecticut. We actually have a bill on the phone call stuff that we were talking about last week, excuse me, being voted on today. I'd be really interested in further exploring what specific issue Linda's dealing with. Then I want to get to the caller who called before--

Brian: By the way, just real quick because I think Linda is still on hold. Did you want us to take her contact information if she's willing to give it, did you want to get-- Are you saying you want to get in touch with her?

Bianca: That would be great. Yes, I'd love to get in touch with her.

Brian: Linda, we'll put you on hold. If you want to follow up with Bianca Tylek from Worth Rises, that's your choice of course, but we'll take your contact information if you'd like. Go ahead, Bianca.

Bianca: Thank you so much, Brian. Then, the other point I was just going to make as, again, just hopefully, to help for the caller who called earlier and said that for $100 it was about $6 to make a deposit, that is the case. Interestingly enough because of the way that they set up these deposit fees in New York and we specifically worked on lowering the rates, the deposit fees on JPay in New York, you can deposit up to $300 and up to $300, it remains at $5.99.

It's still an astronomical fee. We still think that there shouldn't be any fees, but at least as a percentage, it does get a bit smaller. You can also mail money as a money order and that is free. That was something that we had to protect really intentionally with the DOC or DOCS, but it's possible.

Brian: Let's take another caller. Here's Craig in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Craig. Thanks for calling.

Craig: Hey Brian. Good morning. Good to you and your guys. A couple of years ago I had a warrant out of Pennsylvania. They arrested me in New York, brought me back to Pennsylvania. While I was incarcerated in Pennsylvania they switched over to the JPay. Before that if somebody wanted to send you money or whatever they can send a money order. If they didn't even send you money your letters would get processed in prisons postal, whatever department.

Brian: Like a postal money order.

Craig: Yes, so they sent you a postal money order. It would then have to be made out to your name and then the prison would cash it in their account and then they would put it on your book for commissary. While I was there they switched over to the JPay. They were still taking money orders but the money now had to get mailed to JPay for Philly in Florida to get processed. Then, the JPay would then process it. Money orders would get lost, they said they couldn't read it. All to get people to get a JPay account.

Back then you had to download the app. Now mind you, if you got a grandmother on or somebody who doesn't even have a phone that you could download the app or you do it on the iPad, but then they have to have a credit card. The credit card has to be uploaded into the system. The $5 that they get, I guess they realized that $5 from all the people incarcerated in whatever state they can get it in. It was just a terrible system to where thankfully I didn't really need the money. People when you're incarcerated they worry about you.

They want you to keep in contact so they want to send you money, but you're a person of conscience, you don't want to make a hassle for your loved ones on the outside. When the money order gets lost or something, you just say, "You know what? Thankfully I'm not in here for whatever," but I pray places like Jpay they create problems. If you get a credit card and you do it through the app and everything there's no problem. If it has to come through them in the mail-- I'll tell you this recently real quick. The fentanyl problem in Pennsylvania, through the mail people were sending letters laced with fentanyl and correction officers got sick and went to the hospital.

Because of that, they decided not to allow any more mail to come directly to the jail. JPay decided that they will process the mail. Inmates were complaining that they would photocopy a letter and send it to you. You couldn't read it. They photocopy pictures, because of the glare in the pictures, you couldn't even see the-- But nobody tears because you're an inmate and it's like you're in jail and whatever you get you deserve.

I thought you get the time and you get punished for your time, but whatever outcome with it comes with it, and you just suck it up, and then they spit you back out on the street and expect you to be a happy camper because your prison experience was so great. I'm not saying it to be sarcastic, but I'm like, "We should be mindful." People will be released. We'll be sent just because they can be taken advantage of and so many families are nickel and dime in this, for what end? That's my two cents.

Brian: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. My head is exploding with all the things that he brought up, Paul. Oh, my goodness. Which one do we go to first? How about the grandmothers who might be low income and not have the kind of phone or even at their age, not have the kind of phone that has apps where instead of just sending a postal money order, you have to go all through all of this stuff to send your grandkid a few bucks in prison start there. Is this something you're familiar with?

Paul: Yes. I think one of the things too, kind of the overall thing is one of the things that's happened I think almost practically at a policy and a philosophical level with the government is in the last 20 years or so they started looking at prisoners and their family as literally profit centers. As profit centers to be exploited financially at every level for literally as much money as they can possibly get. I think that's been the philosophical shift and then you have a couple of companies that have basically moved in with the objective of monetizing every single aspect of human contact between prisoners and their family.

That comes down to whether it's telephones, money transfers to E-messaging, texting, you name it, they're there to make a buck off of it. I think it's one of the things that's important to know though these companies couldn't exist if it weren't for the government giving them these monopoly contracts. Everything has pretty much revolved around this. It seems that just when you think they can't think any lower, these companies seem to come up with new means of monetizing the carceral experience at the expense literally of prisoners and their family.

Brian: It sounds at least the way Craig described it like there was a more direct system where family members could send in a postal money order and then they would cash it for the incarcerated person. Then this JPay came in as a new company, authorized to be a middleman company and take a slice out of each transaction and they didn't have it before, which means in theory they didn't have to start.

Paul: Yes, [inaudible 00:21:00] critical thing is one of the things that these companies have done like Jpay, I think the brilliance of Ryan Shapiro, the founder of JPay was that basically what he's done is taken formally free services provided by the government and basically figure out a way to monetize them and charge people to provide services that used to be free and provided by the government.

Sending money to prisoners used to be something that as recently as 15 or 20 years ago was free. If you wanted to send prisoners money, people went to the post office or a bank, got a money order, and send it to them. There's no charge or fee. Then, JPay has pretty much changed that. I think it's also worthwhile to note that these industries-- None of these companies have "customers" that they have to obtain or get on the free market or by obtaining through advertising or by inducing to use their services.

All these companies only exist by virtue of the fact that the government monopoly and the government cutting off all free avenues or all alternatives to having this contact. When we talk about, for example, JPay charging $6 to send a $100 money order, for example to a prisoner, this remember outside of prison people are using Zelle, for example, for free. Jpay, most banks allow money transfers for free at no cost, yet because these companies are using government monopolies and the government is not allowing any competition, you can only use these companies by virtue of their monopoly contracts with the government to send money to prisoners. They can charge exorbitant fees and they have no competition.

One of the things I think is that whatever the government mythology is about competition and how great it is that doesn't exist in the world of prison finance and prison economics and prison services, everything runs on monopoly, and also kickbacks where the government's getting kickbacks from these companies in order to get the monopoly contracts for these services. Outside of the prison, many of these services are provided for free.

Brian: We're almost out of time, but I want to take one more call because I see just calling in now, it looks like we have a currently incarcerated person calling from the Vernon C. Bain Correctional Center, some of you may know this as VCBC or also known as The Boat, which we just looked it up because I didn't know all these details. It looks like it's an 800-bed jail barge used to hold people for the New York City Department of Corrections located off the Bronx's Southern shore across from Rikers Island. William, in the Vernon C. Bain Correctional Center, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.

William Clanton: Hi, good morning, Mr. Lehrer and your guests. Yes, my name is William Clanton. Yes, I'm just calling in reference to, of course, this JPay system and financial system within this institution in general. Presently, I am waiting on $100 that my son sent to me through Western Union almost two weeks ago. JPay has strangely put a block on my account for no apparent reason. I don't have any understanding as to why they've done that.

Secondly, I have bailed out on this case and was brought back in it, but when I was bailed out, I think I had saved up quite a bit of money and I was only afforded to get $100 upon being released. Then, it took them almost a week to give me the rest of the money that was in my account. In many cases, this is just really a terrible situation with money coming in and getting the money that belongs to you upon being released. We're really trying to figure out what we can do to kind of navigate around this issue.

Brian: Bianca, can you help William or help him lift the veil on this. William, thank you so much for telling everybody else about this kind of thing.

William: You're very welcome.

Bianca: Thank you, William, for calling. I think this issue specifically at Rikers or in the New York City Department of Correction is one that we've seen in a lot of places. I'm not sure what the hold is on your JPay on your account. I will say this again if you want to leave your number, your name, and your ID number we can try to get that lifted. Again, you don't know why, as you mentioned, we don't know why, so can't promise, but we've been able to do it for others in the past. Please do leave your information with Brian's show and we'll try to contact JPay on your behalf.

With relation to the money coming out, we are really aware of this issue and have been working with city council members around systems to be able to give people their money faster when they're getting out. It hasn't been seamless in any way. I don't know that a solution has really been identified, but certainly, something that is on people's radar and that needs to be addressed. William, I'll just say one thing, I know you're calling from inside and in one of the few cities in the country now that has free phone calls inside of the county or a city jail. Just really glad that we could hear your voice today.

William: Thank you so much. Thank you, Mr. Lehrer. Could I give your--

Brian: Yes. Hang on. We're going to put you on hold. Yes. You don't have to do any of that publicly. We'll take your contact off the air. Believe it or not folks with all the stories that you've just heard. If you've been listening this whole segment, we've really just scratched the surface. There's even much more to this. You can join our guests who've been on this segment in a virtual Green Space event tomorrow night because Worth Rises and the Green Space are continuing to host panel discussions on Tuesday nights for a few more weeks on issues regarding the business side of the prison industry.

Tomorrow will be more on these financial services. Our other guest who's been with us, Paul Wright, will be there. You can find a link to that on our segment page along with more information about the fantastic series in the Green Space, Punishment, and Profit. I forget the time every week, Bianca, is it 7:00 PM?

Bianca: It's 7:00 PM, Brian, yes.

Brian: Seven o'clock tomorrow folks on the Green Space site, Paul and Bianca. Thanks for coming on today.

Bianca: Thank you so much for having us.

Paul: Thank you so much for having us on the show, Brian.

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