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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now let's take a closer look at a very big development coming out of the four-week deadlock in the New York State budget negotiations and the implications go way beyond one year's budget numbers to a failure to act on arguably New York's biggest chronic issue. It's actually related to the one we were talking about in the last segment before the news, the lack of affordable housing. Here's Governor Hochul who actually went public with the admission that her ambitious 800,000-unit housing plan had collapsed. This is Governor Hochul yesterday.

Governor Hochul: I said let's not waste any more time on this. I'm going to go back. This is just the beginning of a journey in my opinion. This is going to be something I'm going to continue to work on until we solve this. That's my commitment to New Yorkers. I feel a little bit like Wayne Gretzky. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. I took the shot.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Wayne Gretzky referenced in an affordable housing statement. First time we've heard that. Governor Hochul, yesterday. WNYC's Albany reporter Jon Campbell is with us now to talk about the state hitting a dead end on housing and we'll touch on some other impediments to a budget agreement. Hey, Jon. Welcome back to the show.

Jon Campbell: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: To cut right to the chase, did Hochul overreach by trying to take control of how much housing is built in the suburbs, state decisions about housing development over local ones causing a bipartisan backlash?

Jon Campbell: Well, it depends on how you're looking at it. She is standing behind her plan still. She's taken it entirely out of the budget, but she says she's going to push for it in the post-budget session. Honestly, this is almost certainly going to bleed into next year too. Did she overreach? She certainly didn't get what she was looking for in the budget. By removing it from the budget, she gets the state closer to an agreement on a spending plan that's now almost a month late, but it removes her leverage here.

The governors have tons of leverage in the budget to try to get what they want, and she waived the white flag at least as part of budget negotiations. Did she overreach? If her goal is getting the plan that she wanted done, perhaps maybe she did, but it'll also depend on whether she is successful later in the legislative session or even in next year's budget to get something done.

Brian Lehrer: Was there a part of that suburban lawmakers' resistance that was most central? Was it the sheer number of new homes being demanded of them? Was it the concentration required around mass transit stations even where those stations are mostly near private homes, or anything else besides just the power dynamic of local versus state control?

Jon Campbell: It's a little bit of all of that. Certainly, the number of new homes that were concerns in, say, Suffolk County, what do you do when you add all these people and you don't have a good solution for a sewer system out there, say, or housing development around mass transit stations? There were some suburbanites who said that the level of density that the governor wanted around these transit stations wasn't doable.

That local control dynamic is really, really the major driver here in getting this housing plan booted from the budget. Anytime you mess with local control, the suburban leaders, Democrats and Republicans, rise up really. It was very plain to see even when the governor first proposed this way back on February 1st. The backlash in terms of local control was immediate and that really is what sunk the ship, so to speak.

Brian Lehrer: I guess local control can be a liberal issue or a conservative issue depending on the exact topic. This we could call a conservative issue, the suburbs resisting more density even though it's in the greater long-term interest of the state as the governor sees it. As you know, Jon, the city gets very upset that the state has the power to tell the city how many red light cameras they can have, what the rent laws have to be within the city. There are legislators from Onondaga County or somewhere who get to say what rent laws in Brooklyn are allowed to be Reverend City Hall. Local control versus state control, it's a big, big issue.

Jon Campbell: Yes, absolutely. You're right. So many things that the city has to do, they have to get state approval for. The governor's plan would have required every city, village, town in the state to increase their housing stock by as much as 3% over three years. If they didn't meet that goal, then the state would have been able to step in and approve multi-family apartment complexes.

That is what the legislature latched onto. Even Andrea Stewart-Cousins who is from Yonkers, she's the Senate leader, she's a Democrat, she was very concerned about that. She has a district that is some of the poorest area of the state and some of the richest. That's just the nature of Westchester County.

Brian Lehrer: That's right.

Jon Campbell: She was tied up on this, but she wanted more of a incentive-based approach rather than a punitive approach if you will.

Brian Lehrer: We talked about that on the show recently with Larry Levy from Hofstra Center for Suburban Studies, and he was arguing that Hochul would have more success with carrots rather than sticks. I guess the question is, are there carrots, are there incentives that would create the same or something similar to the 800,000 new units over the next decade that the governor says the state needs?

Jon Campbell: Well, that's really what it comes down to. She could have had a deal on housing if she was open to an incentive-based approach. The legislature had put forward a plan that would basically make a $500 million pot of money available to municipalities that create housing and to assist with infrastructure, things like that. The governor was very much against a huge incentive-based approach here.

The punitive nature was important to her, the stick rather than the carrot. She says that's because if you look at other states, states that have tried incentive-based approaches, it hasn't worked very well. 800,000 new units over a 10-year period is ambitious and requiring local governments to create 1% to 3% new housing stock over three years, that's ambitious too. She has taken the position that that won't happen without the stick-based approach, and she would rather have no deal and keep the future potential of a stick-based approach alive than compromise and cut a deal now.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. I guess that's the part that surprised me most yesterday when the governor came out and admitted that her proposal is dead for now. It's that she seems to be saying nothing will be done about housing in the budget at least for the immediate future rather than, "Yes, my original plan didn't fly so now we're working on a compromise or a different approach." Why does she think that this approach might succeed in May if it failed in April?

Jon Campbell: Well, that was particularly surprising because the governor herself had said that housing is an enormous priority for her in the budget, along with bail reform and some education issues, charter schools so to see it completely removed from the budget was something of a surprise. I think what she's taking the position of is that she wants a plan that works and she believes a watered-down version of her plan would not work. Keeping that alive at all is more preferable to her than taking the compromise, but you're right. She has less leverage in May and June than she does in February and March just by way of the budget process works. This might be a multi-year negotiation that we see now.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your call is welcome for our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell on anything New York State budget-related. These deadlock items include housing, bail, charter schools, legal weed enforcement, or anything else you want to raise that you know is still in play up there. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Is there any way forward you can see politically on the housing shortage? Any charter school advocates or opponents want to call in? Charter schools will be the other main topic that we'll get to with Jon in this segment. 212-43 3-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Before we get to charter schools though, where does the Fair Housing Act come in if the main issue is race and class as a grouping that disadvantage this discrimination or this resistance I should call it, it's not discrimination under the law, or is it? That's really my question.

Does the Fair Housing Act come into play at all as the suburbs resist denser housing probably arguably because they think it's going to produce more poor people and poor people of color who are more prone to crime or tell me if that's not their secret argument?

Jon Campbell: [laughs] Well, and actually I remember a few months ago you asking Bruce Blakeman, the Nassau County executive that very question whether that's their secret argument essentially and he said, "No, no, no, no, this doesn't have anything to do with race." But listen, there have been exclusionary zoning policies and have been at the heart of racial discrimination for decades and decades and decades.

That's why the Fair Housing Act on the federal level, which is supposed to protect people, supposed to provide fair housing opportunities to people regardless of race, sex, creed, et cetera, et cetera, that's why it exists. Where we've seen that come into play in the past is when someone or an organization, somebody sues a particular local government and says, "Hey, you are not affirmatively promoting fair housing."

We started in Westchester County, for example, in 2009, there was a settlement with the federal government where Westchester County ended up building 750, I believe it was, units of affordable housing in traditionally white areas of Westchester County. That's when we've seen the Fair Housing Act come into play on issues like this.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take one phone call before we get into charter schools and play another clip of the governor. Here is Susan in Greenwich Village. Susan, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Susan: Oh, good morning. Nobody ever talks about how utterly corrupt the state government is. You need, and especially the budget process, so that last year, $1 billion was pushed through to build a stadium for someone who doesn't even live in New York and is himself a billionaire and the governor's husband was involved in working for that group.

Why would anyone, anyone be willing to let this budget process tell them that-- and go to the corruption of builders is unbelievable, to let them push through to allow builders to do whatever they want. Sorry, but no.

Brian Lehrer: Susan, thank you very much. Well, that's an eternal complaint, the power of the developers, the power of the real estate lobby in Albany, though it fluctuates. How would you rate the power of developers and others in the real estate business in 2023 in this democratic super majority, pretty progressive legislature?

Jon Campbell: Listen, they're still powerful. The real estate board of New York is the main lobbying force for New York City real estate interests in Albany and they are powerful, but you just mentioned it with this new progressive legislature, it is dominated by Democrats and has a growing number of left-leaning progressives in it.

The influence has been muted somewhat and you see a lot of people pushing-- oh, one way you can show that is 421 A. It is this tax break for developers that, named after the section of law 421A, that provided really generous benefits to builders who include a certain number of affordable units in their New York City housing developments.

That expired last year and that expired in large part because the progressives in the legislature wanted it to expire. The real estate interests have been pushing for a renewal of that. The governor needed some sort of 421A replacement as part of her housing plan to hit her 800,000-unit goal. She's not getting that.

On the other hand, progressives have been pushing for good cause eviction, which would provide really significant protections to renters and essentially guarantee their renewal of their lease unless they did something to prevent it from being renewed. That was being negotiated or something similar to that was being negotiated as part of the housing plan, that's been dropped as well. They're still very, very powerful. They hate the good cause eviction measures, so they got those out, but on the other hand, they're not getting a renewal of their tax breaks.

Brian Lehrer: Well, housing isn't the only issue holding up the budget, as we said. Another one the governor spoke about yesterday is charter schools. Progressives want to keep a fairly low cap on the number of new ones that may open and take families and funding away from the general neighborhood schools as they see it. Charter school advocates say more charters are in the interest of low-income families not being stuck if their neighborhood schools are bad. Here's Governor Hochul yesterday on that.

Governor Hochul: This is a very emotional issue for parents. I understand that. I'm the product of public schools. My kids went to public schools. Half my family are teachers. I have invested more money in public education than any governor in history. I believe in public schools, but it's hard for me to turn my back on 50,000 parents who's put their names on wait lists so their kids could have a different alternative. That is the struggle that is going on right now. I'm trying hard to overcome the objections, but this is a very challenging issue because of the emotions on both sides of the debate.

Brian Lehrer: Jon and our guest is WNYC and Gothamist Albany reporter, Jon Campbell. As we're into week four, or is it week five now, I lose track, of the New York State budget being late with so many issues in play wrapped up in that budget. The governor's position is clear, she wants the number of charter school seats to more meet the demand out there. Why isn't that argument more easily winning the day in the legislature?

Jon Campbell: Well, for one, the teachers union, UFT, in the city, and the statewide union is the New York State United Teachers, they are very against charter schools, and they have a lot of juice in Albany and a lot of juice with Democrats in the legislature in particular, but this is also, legislative democrats have long resisted charter schools and efforts to expand the cap on charter schools.

Governor Hochul wanted to-- there's a statewide cap that hasn't been met, but there's a regional cap in New York City that has been met. She wanted lift the regional cap and then reissue what are known as zombie charters, charters that were issued to organizations but maybe the school was never launched or maybe it has folded, or whatever.

It is looking, what we've heard from lawmakers and the governor herself said yesterday, the talks have been centered more lately on the zombie charters. It's looking like maybe there's room for compromise there where the governor gets the zombie charters but not lifting the regional cap and that would free up a couple dozen charters, maybe a little less in New York City in particular.

It's possible that that could happen. That is one of the things that is still holding up the agreement. That's one of the things that they're still negotiating behind the scenes.

Brian Lehrer: Let me read you a tweet from Alex Zimmerman, reporter for the education news site, Chalk Beat. He wrote about this becoming a sticking point in the budget. "This is fascinating given that Hochul did not make charters a priority on the campaign trail.

New York City's largest networks of charters are experiencing enrollment declines, a big chunk of the sector's overall enrollment gains are due to grade expansions." I guess Alex's questioning as an education reporter, whether there is even the demand that the governor cited in that clip for charter school seats.

Jon Campbell: She did not make it a major issue on the campaign, but funders of charter schools are, these very wealthy interests, are people who back the school choice and they donate to campaigns. They donated to Governor Cuomo's campaign before Governor Hochul, and they donated to Governor Hochul's campaign as well so they clearly have her ear on this.

It's really been this dynamic that has gone on for a while now, where a governor will back charter schools and lawmakers will resist it. That's still what's going on here. If there's demand for new charters, we will see, I suppose, but I would certainly leave it to the education reporters to know a little bit more about that.

Brian Lehrer: For the power dynamic aspect of this you've mentioned two big pots of money, one coming from the teachers union, the other coming from wealthy supporters of charter schools. I guess we can't say who wins yet because this is still in play and charter advocates are frustrated. They say the teachers union has too much power and the teachers are frustrated and other advocates of neighborhood schools as opposed to charter schools, they think these rich advocates of charter schools have too much power. Would you say they're about equal at this point?

Jon Campbell: Well, the prize for the charter school backers is the lifting of that regional cap and it's looking like that is not going to make it through in these negotiations. In that respect, I think that the teachers union comes out on top here. The other thing we should mention too, there are financial implications for New York City. A lot of these schools are co-located at public schools, or if they're not, then the city has to come up with some funding to find them private space.

That is another thing that's being negotiated here. What we've heard and what lawmakers have suggested is perhaps the state would pick up that tab rather than the city. That's something that Mayor Adams has raised concern about.

Brian Lehrer: On the two topics that we've discussed so far today housing and charter schools, is that an example of that the big power players in Albany are real estate developers and public sector unions? I think some people have made that argument. Real estate developers and other corporate sectors, but also very much so public sector unions, like in education and healthcare.

Jon Campbell: Yes. Without a doubt. On the one hand, it's wealthy interests who donate to campaigns, and that increases their influence, whether any politicians want to admit that or not. On the other hand, unions have a lot of people power. They have a lot of people who are willing to go out and knock on doors for politicians and distribute mailers or whatever. That's significant too. They have money to spend as well on campaigns. It's no secret that both sides there are pretty powerful influences in Albany.

Brian Lehrer: We have one more caller on housing that we can get in before we run out of time. Sarah in Sea Cliff, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah: Hi. I was just calling to add regarding development and housing out in Nassau County that there's a lot involved and related to our water issues here. I'm from Brooklyn and I would love to see more diversity here. For me, that's not the issue. In Sea Cliff especially, our beaches are closed regularly because of runoff and water. We're on cesspools. Our aquifers are at the tipping point where if more salt water comes in, the balance could be thrown off.

It's not a simple issue and there's quite a bit of development out here already with Garvies Point out near Port Washington, there's development and there's a lot of fighting going on led by the coalition to save Hempstead Harbor. There are people that monitor the water every day and doing great work, and there's a big infrastructure problem here in terms of sewage and drinking water. That's my point.

Brian Lehrer: Sarah, thank you very much. For people who don't know, Sea Cliff North Shore in Nassau County on Long Island, and I guess, well, any development has to satisfy the environmental laws, and yet the laws can also be used by people, maybe unlike the caller who want to use them as an excuse to not have development as opposed to have responsible development environmentally speaking.

Jon Campbell: Environmental groups had their concerns about Governor Hochul's housing plan, especially when the state would've been able to step in and approve things on an expedited process. There are a lot of environmental reviews along the way and what's known as SEQRA, the State Environmental Quality Review Act, that environmental groups very much want to be upheld as part of that process.

There were a lot of environmental concerns about this as well. But on the other hand, from the governor's perspective, she would say, "Listen, we have a housing crisis and we have to do more to spur development." Issues like the caller raised are, were complicating factors throughout all this and it just goes to show how complicated housing policy can and the various different things that you have to take into account.

Brian Lehrer: Last question. How's the bail reform debate going? We don't want to get into it again, we've only got a minute left in the segment, and we've debated bail reform up and down so many ways for so long. That's the issue we usually hear as holding up the budget. Today, we've talked about a few others. We now see it's more than just bail, but what about bail or more discretion for judges based on perceived dangerousness of the accused person?

Jon Campbell: Well, that is what held up budget talks for a couple of weeks, really. That was really the only thing that they were negotiating. They seemed to have found some sort of consensus. We don't have language yet, but the governor yesterday suggested that there was some consensus and essentially it will remove what's known as the least restrictive standard. We could get into it, but essentially, it'll make it more clear to judges that they have discretion to set bail in serious felony and misdemeanor cases.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC and Gothamist Albany Reporter, Jon Campbell. Jon, one of these days, we will hear you on our air describing what actually got into the fiscal 2024 budget. The budget year supposed to start on April 1st. Here we are, what is it? April 26th? I don't know. Maybe we'll hear you report that on May 1st. Maybe it'll be next February. We'll see but we hear how stuck they are. Thanks for coming on and explaining these things.

Jon Campbell: Brian, I hope you're right. Thank you.

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