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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone, as America continues to digest the leaked draft of the potential Supreme Court ruling reversing Roe v. Wade. Now, as I've been hearing people describe it on various media sources, they'd been expecting a ruling like this from the Supreme Court on this particular case, but maybe not a ruling this extreme. It was still a shock to read it in print, expect it or not. Of course, we still have to see if it changes between now and the final version.

Chief Justice Roberts has been believed to be trying to cobble together a compromise that upholds the Mississippi law at issue which bans abortion after 15 weeks, but without throwing out a woman's constitutional right entirely. Later in the show, we'll talk to Jessica Bruder who has an Atlantic Magazine article about the various ways women will be accessing abortions in a post-Roe world and the networks already springing up to support them.

We'll have a call in for clergy and other religious believers on how you talk back to the anti-abortion rights activists whose argument often comes down to one thing, that it's, as Justice Alito's draft calls it, an unborn human life. With me now on that and more Long Island Democratic Congresswoman Kathleen Rice. She announced in February that she is not running for a fifth term in Congress.

She may or may not say this is the reason, but her district is basically the southern half of Nassau County, much of the county south of the Long Island Expressway. It's trending Republican recently, as in the party flipped last year, both the Nassau County Executive and Nassau County DA positions. Before being elected to Congress, Rice was the Nassau County DA herself. The district lines are still in flux, but neither of Long Island's Democratic Congress members are trying to keep their seats.

Ironically, maybe if the Supreme Court really does overturn Roe, it will energize Democrats and suburban independents who largely support abortion rights, in fact, overwhelmingly in many polls, to turn out in greater numbers and reverse the trend. We will see if that becomes very salient as a voting issue more than it was.

We'll talk about Long Island politics, a post-Roe Congress, her trips to Europe in support of Ukraine, and more now with Kathleen Rice. Congresswoman, it's always been great to have you on during your eight years in the House. I've always enjoyed our conversations, so let me say that at the outset. Welcome back to WNYC, maybe for the last time at least in this role.

Kathleen Rice: Well, I hope not. Brian, thank you so much. I've always enjoyed spending time with you as well.

Brian Lehrer: Want to start with your own words on why you're not running for reelection.

Kathleen Rice: It was a really personal decision, Brian. When I first ran in 2014, I said, "I'm not going to Washington to stay there forever." In fact, I think one of the problems with Washington is that people go and stay too long. They don't know when it's time to leave and pass the job off to another person. I felt like I had done a lot of good work on behalf of my constituents and the country.

I was coming up on my 57th birthday and I just thought it was time for a change. In that respect, it was very personal. It's going to be, I don't know, just over 30 years of public service in my life. Brian, I was raised on Long Island with my nine brothers and sisters and my parents always stressed how important it was for us to give back. I think I've done that and I'm looking forward to the next chapter of my life.

Brian Lehrer: How do you see the reasons for the results in the elections on Long Island last year with those Republican gains for Nassau County Executive and DA in both Nassau and Suffolk counties, the kind of results that indicate that it might be difficult for whoever takes the Democratic nomination for your current seat to win?

Kathleen Rice: I think there are a couple of takeaways from what happened last November and Democrats would be wise to heed the warnings that we got from voters. I think that if you look at-- it's certainly the case of Nassau County Executive Laura Curran and the Suffolk County District Attorney Tim Sini, two wildly popular public servants who were voted out of office. I think in a vote that was meant to send a message to Washington that voters did not like the direction that Washington was taking us in. That's one takeaway.

I think the other takeaway, and this is not insignificant, is that it was an off off-year, Brian, as you know. It wasn't even a midterm like we're facing this November. This is an off off-year. It was not very high voter turnout. Certainly more Republicans turned out than Democrats. That is just a persistent problem within the Democratic infrastructure that we have in New York State, that we don't know, certainly on Long Island, how to turn out voters the way that Republicans do and definitely not in off off-year.

I think that people on Long Island are worried about their kids getting back to school in a post-COVID world. They're certainly worried about public safety and the message coming, from certainly some members of the Democratic Party nationally around defund the police was not helpful. You know me, I've got my law enforcement background.

I would be able to withstand attacks about me being a defund the police Democrat because people know that that's not any message that I've ever, ever given in a public setting because I don't believe in that, but there were a lot of Democrats who were brushed with that stroke. I think we have to be really careful about meeting voters where they are and not telling voters what we think they should be worried about, but instead talking about the issues that matter to them.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I want to come back to crime and what you were just talking about in part of that answer, but also on Roe and what you were saying about turnout being likely higher among Republicans in an off-year election like this. Roe is overwhelmingly popular in America. Less than a third oppose it according to last year's Gallup poll and that's certainly true, I imagine, among white suburban women swing voters. How much do you think a reaction to something like the Alito draft, if it comes down officially that way, might help Democrats keep the house this year or in particular win on Long Island this year?

Kathleen Rice: I think that the issue of choice can certainly motivate voters to come to the polls. It's not just women. It is an overwhelmingly accepted right that we have for people across this country, men and women. I think the decision to overturn Roe v. Wade would be nothing short of catastrophic for women in this country. Making abortion illegal does not stop abortions. It only stops safe abortions. If the justices make this decision, they need to understand that there will be blood on their hands with this ruling.

This would mark the first time in American history that young women have fewer rights than the generation before them and that is a deeply alarming precedent for where this country may be headed. My hope is that, like anything else, we will see an issue like this, motivate people to understand that it actually matters who you send to the Senate. It matters who you send to the White House.

Whenever I talk to young people when I was out campaigning and they would say to me, "Why should I register to vote? Why should it matter to me? Why should I care about voting?" I say, "Do you care about the rights that you have right now? Do you care about the ability to love the person that you want to love, to make healthcare decisions for your own body yourself? Then it matters who you send to Washington." This potential decision is a glaring example of that.

It matters who you elect to the Senate. It matters who you send to the White House. We had Donald Trump who is in a position to appoint through some Republican shenanigans, I might add, of Mitch McConnell, he was able to send three justices to the Supreme Court and now we have this decision. This is a project that very conservative ideologues have been working on, as you know, Brian, ever since 1973 when Roe v. Wade became the law of the land.

Brian Lehrer: That's right. We'll be talking about some of that history later in the show. How did you come to your, what sounds like from that answer, ardently pro-choice position? You talked about growing up with your nine brothers and sisters on Long Island, so I'm guessing you came from a good Long Island Catholic family? Was it a matter of debate, subject of debate, conversation for you growing up, or were you always pro-choice?

Kathleen Rice: It's interesting you say that Brian because the two things as all Irish catholic families know-- the two things you never discuss at the dinner table are politics and religion and yet every single dinnertime conversation revolved around those two things. It would come as no surprise that certainly my father

and I-- My mother suffered from dementia so by the time I got into politics, we weren't able to have these kind of debates, although I know that she would have supported me no matter what, but it was a difficult issue that my father and I differed on. As a woman growing up, certainly in a family that was at one point teaching me the-- what I believe that the Christian faith, which to treat people like Christ did, which is the way that I was raised.

I was being raised at a time when women were fighting for and demanding more rights. My father, even though we disagreed, he supported me no matter what, and he respected my choices and my decisions. Yes, there were times when I was DA when I was threatened with excommunication as some Catholic bishops just did with President Biden, which I think is just ridiculous because I would hold my Christian values and Catholic values up anyone. For me, this is about treating women the same way men are treated.

If you went to a doctor's appointment with a man as an elected official, and you said, "No, no, no, you can't make those choices. You want this, you want to do this with your body, you want to do that-- no, you're not allowed." There would be a revolution. I'll tell you this, Brian, I know this has been floated and it sounds kind of crazy, but I think it really is true. Women make up more than 50% of population, and we are going to be dragged back to a time when we can't make decisions about our own bodies.

I'm not just talking about the ability to terminate a pregnancy. I'm talking about, do you want to be able to family plan? Do you want to be able to use contraception? Because that now is on the table to be done away within this country as well. If women-- I know this sounds crazy, but if women were to say, "Guess what, no more sex in this country until we have equal rights." Let me tell you those people in Washington-

Brian Lehrer: This is strata.

Kathleen Rice: -those men in Washington would act pretty darn fast. It sounds crazy that it would have to come to that, but I can't believe that we are in the year 2022 and we are talking about rolling back healthcare decisions, the ability for a woman to make critical healthcare decisions about her own life. Can you imagine, I want to hear my Republican colleagues defend to me that they support this potential decision to undo Roe v. Wade, and then what comes next?

Guess what women, you can't use contraception. You're going to force women to have unplanned pregnancies, not be able to terminate those unplanned pregnancies, even in the instance of rape or incest. Then when that baby is born, you're not going to be there to help that woman raise that child. That is insane, but that is what this potential court decision could come down to and that's just outrageous.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman, Justice Alito wrote in the opinion that this does not set a precedent for rolling back contraceptive rights or same sex marriage rights because the abortion question is unique in that there's another person involved, what his draft called an unborn human being. What would you say to that if you're warning about contraception, et cetera?

Kathleen Rice: With all due respect to Justice Alito, he has completely flip-flopped on what his position-- if he authored this draft and it is in complete contradiction to what he said before the Senate committee, during his confirmation where he said it was basically the stare decisis I guess that's how he gets away with it, but he respected Roe v. Wade and planned parenthood versus Casey. All of those subsequent cases and decisions as settled law.

Look, the debate about when a life begins is always going to be one that Republicans try to throw out there and say, "Democrats, want to kill babies." That's not true. Everyone knows that that's not true, but a woman should have a right to determine certainly, in a case of rape or incest, which this would not allow for exceptions to, which is just outrageous, that you're forcing a woman to have the baby under circumstances like that .I think [unintelligible 00:14:39]

Brian Lehrer: States could make exceptions, but they wouldn't be required to. Yes.

Kathleen Rice: They're not though, Brian. Look at the states that are doing the trigger laws now in the event that this decision does come down. All of these states, I think there's more than 20 states now who have these trigger laws that say, "If this decision goes through, if the Supreme Court does away with Roe v. Wade, then we're going to do that in our state," and they're not making exceptions for rape or incest and people have to understand that. That is outrageous.

Brian Lehrer: On TV, I saw somebody I forget who, give the example that in one of these states, with the trigger laws, at least one of these states, maybe it's more than one of these states. If you're a 12-year-old girl raped by your father and you become pregnant, the law would not allow you to get a legal abortion.

Kathleen Rice: Yes, that's right. That's right. I don't understand. Guess what, this Republican party has to own this. This Republican party has got to own this. Donald Trump, one of the reasons why he got the evangelical vote when he was running for president was because he said, "If I get any choice," and we knew he was going to get one because Mitch McConnell was holding up Merrick Garland, who was nominated by President Obama. He said he is going to appoint someone who will overturn Roe v. Wade.

He got not just one, not two, but three choices. Every single one of those choices, everyone knew, regardless of what they said, Susan Collins, Senator for Maine is even acknowledging that in private conversations with, I believe it was Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett, they confirmed-- I think it was Amy Coney Barrett, but at least with Kavanaugh, he confirmed privately that he would not overturn Roe v. Wade and that's exactly what those three justices have signed off on if this decision goes through.

Brian Lehrer: We played the clip on yesterday's show of Senator Collins from right around the Kavanaugh confirmation saying she believed that he would not vote to overturn Roe, now either she was lying to us or she was lying to herself.

Kathleen Rice: Or she was lied to and she knew it and she just felt the political pressure to vote for him. Whatever it is, this is where we are.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, my guest, if you're just joining us, is Democratic Congresswoman Kathleen Rice of Nassau County on Long Island. She is leaving Congress at the end of this year, the end of her fourth term. Your calls for her can be on this or anything else that's relevant to her. 212-433, WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Following up on what you were just talking about in the Senate, President Biden was asked this week if he should now endorse ending the filibuster in the Senate so Democrats could pass a bill codifying a woman's right to choose into Federal Law. I guess this makes two issues now where people are arguing. These are so fundamental to rights in America.

This one and voting rights, that it's worth ending the filibuster for, especially because the Senate is structurally under the constitution, what turns out to be disproportionately Republican more than the proportion of the voters in the country who are Republican, because small states get two senators. Would you support something like that with the filibuster at this point?

Kathleen Rice: I knew that the filibuster issue was going to come up when we heard about this potential Supreme Court decision, and I'll tell you my position on it, Brian. We are in this position right now because the filibuster was done away with, by Senator Harry Reid all those years ago, when Republicans were holding up President Obama's choices for the Federal Bench. He did it away with the filibuster-- by the way, for I guess, in his mind for the right reasons, but that then led to Republicans doing away with it for Supreme Court choices, which are lifetime appointments.

All of these are lifetime appointments. No one should get a lifetime job based on 50 votes of people who come from various states around this country. I don't think the answer is doing away with the filibuster, because you also don't-- I don't even know if you would get to 50 votes. I believe there's at least one Democratic Senator who does not support a woman's right to choose.

That's not going to be the answer in this instance. The answer is sending people to the Senate from across this country who believe that women are equal citizens to men, period, that's it. That's what we need to do. Forget about the filibuster doing away with it. It's not going to work in this instance. Again, reminding people that's why we are in this position, why Donald Trump got three choice, three picks because the filibuster was done away with before. I don't think that's the answer. I think we have to be more discerning about the people that we send to the Senate. Look one of my issues with Washington, and one of the reasons why it just became a job that was not-- it became untenable to me was that you have a lot of people who are running

who are not serious legislators. They are not policy people they're performance artists. They want to say the most outrageous things, do the most outrageous things to get clicks and tweets and money in their political campaigns and that's what it's become about for a lot of these people in the Senate and the House.

I'm hoping that voters can be more discerning in terms of who we send to Washington to represent us because when you take the issue of choice, overwhelmingly people in this country not just women but men as well, support a woman's right to make her own healthcare choices and that includes abortion and yet that's not what's being represented in the Senate.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think the other side has any such hesitation as the president or what you were just laying out about the filibuster? If Republicans take the House and Senate this year, do you think we're headed for a national abortion ban or more restrictions federally even as they trumpet overturning Roe in the name of states rights?

Kathleen Rice: They're not going to get anything. I don't think that if the Republicans take over the House and the Senate, they are not going to do it with a mandate. They are not going to have a veto-proof majority in the House no way, neither will they have that in the Senate. I mean there's just no way. That's a good thing. They won't be able to pass anything at least for the last two years, these next two years under Biden.

Brian Lehrer: Things that Biden could veto but also I wonder if the shoe then goes on to the other foot and the Democrats start defending the filibuster as a means to uphold basic rights in America.

Kathleen Rice: We'll see. I mean this is why elections have consequences, Brian. This is what I say to voters all the time, it does matter whether you show up on election day, and look, in New York, we're going to have some issues because all of the congressional lines that were done by Democrats in Albany they were just invalidating. Now because of a time issue, the congressional primaries are going to be in August. Who's going to vote in August? I hope people are going to care enough to vote or if they're going to be out of town to do it by absentee ballot but this is a real problem.

Brian Lehrer: Right. At least that's just the primaries even though I know a lot can be at stake in the primaries but at least that doesn't determine which party gets the seat in Congress with a low turnout election.

Kathleen Rice: No that's true Brian but it does matter, it's going to be interesting to see where these primaries go. I know Vance won the primary yesterday [inaudible 00:22:37].

Brian Lehrer: JD Vance endorsed by Trump in Ohio.

Kathleen Rice: I'm obviously supporting Tim Ryan. I think he'd be great, I'm hoping that he will win. The primaries do matter because what you see, Brian, because forget about the Senate but most of the seats in the house are gerrymandered. There are really only a handful of house races that are even remotely competitive.

In the majority of races that you see in both red, red seats and blue, blue seats, you have Republicans running against Republicans. In those primaries, if you see more extreme candidates winning in those primary, that's what you're left with. Who's going to be in the general election?

Brian Lehrer: No that's a great point. I guess we learned on January 6th that it matters whether there's a conspiracy theorist Republican in office or a more mainstream Republican in office. We've I guess got a conspiracy one and an actual election denier even though he started out as a moderate opponent of Trump back in 2016, JD Vance now getting the nomination in Ohio. You have an interesting history with the democratic nominee Congressman Tim Ryan.

You supported Tim Ryan for speaker of the House over Nancy Pelosi when he was trying to challenge her from the center. He was trying to be the more centrist Democrat than Pelosi. She's not the most progressive wing of the party today. Do you want to talk about that part of your time in Congress as you get ready to leave? You voted for Tim Ryan for speaker on thinking what, that Pelosi was taking the party into a progressive a direction?

Kathleen Rice: I'm glad you asked this Brian because I think it's important for people to understand where I've been during my eight years in Washington. I went there saying we need new leadership. In 2010 after Democrats were able to pass the Affordable Care Act, as President Obama said in that midterm in 2010 Democrats got [unintelligible 00:24:50] and most of the Democrats who lost were moderate blue dog, new Democrats and no one was held responsible for that.

We lost 60 seats at least, I think it was 60. I mean it was unbelievable the [unintelligible 00:25:07] that we took and no one was held responsible for it. We kept the same leadership in place which was not just Nancy Pelosi at the top but Steny Hoyer and Jim Clyburn as well. While it might not have been a popular thing for me to say publicly, I can tell you that there were a lot of my colleagues who were patting me on the back and saying, "Thank you for having the courage to say what we have all been saying since 2010," which is we got a message from voters and we didn't change anyone in the leadership at the top.

Here we are 12 years later after 2010 with leadership at the top and what Democrats are saying to voters is, "We don't want to meet you where you are, we want to drag you where we want to be," and that's why we keep losing.

Brian Lehrer: What does that mean? Is that a matter of being too left?

Kathleen Rice: I think right now in 2022 yes, the answer is enough. We're going too far in that direction. I think that when you have a Democratic Party whose policies and agenda are being set by an avowed socialist like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, yes the Democratic Party is having a problem, having an identity issue. By the way, the Republicans are going through the same thing. I have a lot of Republican friends who don't support Donald Trump but are afraid to say anything against him because they don't want to lose their election.

This is both parties are going through what I would call an identity crisis. There's a struggle between in the Republican party the Trumpers, and the never Trumpers. In the Democratic party with Democratic socialists trying to push the party way too far to the left where the country is not. Not even the majority of Democrats are there. That's I think what the problem is and I've always seen that as a failure of the leadership that we've had.

I am not taking away from the wonderful job that Nancy Pelosi has done as speaker certainly during her first time as speaker, but there comes a time Brian when people have to know when it's time to pass the torch. What we're seeing in Washington is example after example of people not knowing when it's time to leave and give up the power that I admit is hard to do but is necessary in order for this great democracy of ours to work.

Brian Lehrer: Just one follow-up on that about Bernie Sanders and AOC because I know a lot of our listeners would want to say, "If you take out the phrase, eliminate the phrase from the conversation defund the police because nobody actually says defund the police who's in elected office. What is it about AOC and Bernie that is so out of touch with America, Medicare for all tests fairly well in the polls?" For forgiving student loans tests fairly well in the polls, what's so radical about Bernie Sanders or AOC in economic policy.

Kathleen Rice: Well, first of all defund the police was a term that was used by a number of my colleagues in the House because I've had to defend myself against that. That became--

Brian Lehrer: Not before you mentioned though, right?

Kathleen Rice: No maybe not expressly but the point is that it became a position of the Democrats in nationally whether people said it or not it was allowed to be out there as an official position of the Democratic party and it was not. Yes Medicare for all is very popular, I don't know so much about forgiving student loan debt. I had to pay my student loan debt back. I understand the situation now but that's a bigger issue that we're allowing kids to go to schools that they can't afford and take out mortgage size student loans that they're never going to be able to repay.

That's a bigger conversation, policy conversation that we have to have in Washington. My point Brian is that we do not have supermajorities in the House or the Senate. Too many of my colleagues over the past two years have been talking like we do have 60 seat majorities in the House and 70 seats in the Senate, not true. We have to be more realistic about the things that we can get accomplished. I think that promises were made to progressives in the party that certain things were going to be done in the Build Back Better Plan that we knew were never going to pass because of the slim

majorities that we had, even using the reconciliation process. That's what I'm talking about, Brian. I think we have too many people on in my party-- and by the way, when the Republicans have control, good luck, Kevin McCarthy, if he's the speaker because if he doesn't have a 60 or 70 seat margin, which he's not going to have, he's going to have the same problems.

He's going to have a Freedom Caucus. I don't know what they're calling themselves now but I think it's the Freedom Caucus or whatever pushing that leadership, if they take over the House to go far, far-right and they're not going to have the votes to do it. My point has always been, "Let's see what we can get accomplished, trying to do it in a bipartisan way but if not, let's just see what we can get past with the slim majorities that we have." I don't think that some of that has failed, because we didn't keep that in mind, that we did not get a crazy mandate.

Biden, I believe, was elected because people wanted Donald Trump out. They were sick and tired of the craziness. They just wanted us to be centered again, they wanted us to reengage in the international community, but it was not a mandate across the board if you look at the slim majorities that we have in the House and the Senate.

Brian Lehrer: Few phone calls before we run out of time with Democratic Congresswoman Kathleen Rice of Nassau County, basically most of Nassau County, below the LIE. We'll take a few phone calls and again, as she is finishing out her time in Congress, she's not running for reelection, after eight years. John in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, John.

John: Hi, thanks for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

John: I wanted to go back to Roe. Ruth Bader Ginsburg foresaw that Roe would ultimately fail, and almost didn't get on the court because she said so. What the pro-life people are doing is restricting a doctor's ability to perform the procedure. In my opinion, instead of trying to save Roe, we need the ERA and a law that gives women control over their bodies. Sorry, I'm nervous.

Brian Lehrer: That's okay. John, you're doing great and I hear you. Well, Congresswoman, what do you think? I mean, some would say, that's another one that sounds great, but you'll never get it through Congress, you should focus on other ways?

Kathleen Rice: No, I mean, first of all, John, thank you much for your question and your comment. Look, this is why it matters who we elect. This is why it matters, okay, because you have a unquestionably conservative Supreme Court right now, that is doing their own interpretation of the Constitution and unless we have legislators who are there to actually change the laws, this is where we are, all of these issues are going to be determined on a state by state basis.

What you're going to have is you're going to have like, states that become refugee havens, for lack of a better term for women who need to be able to make health care choices. They'll come to places like New York, or California, or places where that respect a woman's right to make her own healthcare decisions and that just cannot stand in this country, to say nothing of the ripple effect that I do believe is going to happen if this decision is issued next month, as we believe it's going to.

That's why I keep focusing on the issue of who we send to Washington because it matters, we can't leave it. The law of the land is let every state just do what they want. There are certain rights that are critical to a functioning democracy, that we cannot allow every state to do their own thing and discriminate against women and make them second-class citizens again.

Brian Lehrer: Janice in Barnegat great place by the bay, Jersey Shore. Janice, you're on WNYC with Congresswoman Kathleen Rice.

Janice: Hi, I just want to say thank you so much for everything that you said. I can't thank you enough. I'm 70 and I can't believe that we're in this place, just like you said, after all the wonderful time that we had and I just want to say that the Atlantic Monthly has an amazing article that details a lot of what people have done in anticipation of this change in Roe v. Wade, anyway--

Brian Lehrer: Janice, I want to thank you for doing a promo for later in this program segment because we're going to Jessica Bruder, the writer of that Atlantic Magazine article on right after the eleven o'clock news, just stay in.

Janice: I'm glad because I cannot remember the details. Thank you, Brian, and thank you for all your work that you guys do. I really appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: Janice, thank you very much see that a spontaneous listener promo for a segment later in the morning that she doesn't even know is coming up. I want to make sure to touch this with you, Congresswoman before we run out of time because it's just important. I see you've been in Europe recently, on two trips to meet NATO leaders, in conjunction with helping Ukraine. What was your role?

Kathleen Rice: I was part of a bipartisan delegation, going over to allies to just show our support for Ukraine, I felt lucky to be able to take part in these trips. We had the opportunity to meet with NATO leadership, but with American soldiers in Poland, Ukrainian displaced individuals, and they don't want to be called refugees, Brian, because they want to go home.

They are being temporarily, we hope temporarily displaced, and just to see the generous nature of the Polish people, the Romanian people, people all across Europe who are taking in all the displaced Ukrainians, and also as Congress members, we have access to much information about what's happening in Eastern Europe, but those resources just can't compare to being on the ground and seeing our military might, actually helping our allies, helping the Ukrainians who are inspiring people all across the globe, with President Zelenskyy leading the way.

This Russian aggression has got to stop and if we don't stop it now, there was huge danger that it's just going to-- this authoritarian rule is going to spread little by little because that's what Putin wants. He wants to resurrect the USSR. That's what he wants and he believes that Ukraine is a part of Russia, even though they have declared their independence over and over and over again.

One thing else that is the biggest takeaway, Brian, for me, was we met with the head of the World Food Programme, David Beasley, and the alarm bell he's founded in the issue of food insecurity that is going it's not being felt here right away but it is going to be an enormous problem because of what's going on in Ukraine and Russia being economically isolated, rightly so but that's where 40% of the world's grain comes from, and fertilizer. I mean, we're going to have to make up for that lack of those commodities coming into the international market.

It is going to create an enormous hunger problem across the planet, where there are some places where there already is that problem, but it's going to reach even further. I think that we, as representatives, going over there, we were speaking for the United States government and saying we are going to support Ukraine, the Ukrainians in this fight against Russia, against Putin and I hope that every American maintains that support of this country of 40 million-plus people being invaded for no reason. I just felt very lucky to be on this trip to kind of see what we were seeing and the bravery of not just the soldiers, but, everyday people taking in displaced Ukrainians, it was an amazing thing to see.

Brian Lehrer: Well, Congresswoman Kathleen Rice, listeners could tell even if they don't agree with everything you've said, that you care about the issues, you care about the world. It'll be interesting to see if you resurface in public life in some way after you leave Congress at the end of this year. Thank you again for coming on with us repeatedly during your four terms.

Kathleen Rice: Brian, thank you as always, thank you so much.

 

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