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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. One quick note about Michael Hill's Newscast there. I should have jumped in and said it when he said it. Time to start paying attention again to the New York Knicks if you're at all of a sports fan or just one of those marginal sports fans who only pays attention when things get interesting. Things are getting really interesting for the first time in a long time with the Knicks and their star, Jalen Brunson, who scored more points than any Knick ever in a playoff game yesterday. Just saying, another source of entertainment for some of you who are marginal sports fans.

If you plan on driving into Manhattan south of 60th Street, remember this date, June 30th. Maybe the Knicks will be NBA champions by then. That's when the MTA is set to begin congestion pricing, barring the outcomes of legal challenges against the plan as most of you know. Also, as you just heard from Michael on the Newscast, the MTA just announced some new Metro-North and Long Island Rail Road discounts for trips within the city to go with congestion pricing to encourage commuting by rail and offer that carrot to people who live on the Metro-North and Long Island Rail Road lines within the city.

There's more transportation news as well. City bus service just got a $12 million boost from the state budget, but that pilot program where there was one free bus line in each borough, that's not set to end. The MTA is ramping up its crackdown on fare beating and on drivers who evade tolls as well. Don't forget about the toll evaders. We'll talk about all that and more with Stephen Nessen, WNYC and Gothamist transportation reporter, your friendly neighborhood transit reporter on X. Hi, Stephen. Welcome back to the show. Is there Stephen Nessen in the house?

Stephen Nessen: Sorry. I'm here.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, there you go. Hi there. Now, we got you. I guess the first thing to ask you about is the status of the congestion pricing litigation now that the MTA has announced an actual start date, June 30th, which is a Sunday, by the way. I guess that's to give people sort of one day to get a little warmed up, but how confident is the MTA? How confident is the reporting about whether the lawsuits are going to allow them to actually start?

Stephen Nessen: Well, MTA Chair Janno Lieber has been making the rounds on television. He was on TV again this morning and he sounded confident. He said, "Things are looking good. We're heading in the right direction." He was sounding confident. I should add that June 30 start date that you mentioned. Like we've been reporting, it was actually going to be June 15th. He said this morning, they pushed it back because they want folks to have more time to enroll in the exemptions and the discount plans that were just put out, I believe, Friday. That's part of the reasoning behind the timing.

As far as your question about the lawsuits and the confidence, it's still out there, Brian. There is a New Jersey judge right now who is reviewing all the notes from a couple of days of oral arguments from the state of New Jersey as well as from federal experts on congestion pricing, the Federal Highway Administration. He could rule either way, Brian. He could say that the MTA needs to go back and provide more information about the impacts of congestion pricing. He could say, "We're good to go," but there's a couple of New York lawsuits that are yet to be heard in front of a judge.

It's a bundle of cases. I think you've spoken about it before like the Staten Island teachers union, other groups from Staten Island, including, I believe, civil liberties groups as well as some concerned parents in Battery Park. That is set for mid-May, those oral arguments. That judge could say some part of the plan is harmful to the environment or the MTA needs to go back and revise it or rework it. That June 30th date is best wishes from the MTA. They need to set a date to plan it, but there's two judges that could really throw a wrench in this whole thing.

Brian Lehrer: As long as litigation usually takes, it seems very likely that all of those rulings won't even come down one way or another before June 30th. I'm guessing, and I don't know if you've reported on this yet, but that now that they've announced the start date that there will be motions filed in court in one or more of these cases for a temporary injunction. That is, don't let it start while the lawsuits are proceeding to a final resolution and judges will have to rule on that, yes?

Stephen Nessen: Well, the New Jersey judge was very clear that he knew the MTA wants to start it in mid-June and was going to issue a ruling before then. That's the New Jersey side. The New York judge, we haven't even heard from him yet or her, so we don't know how they're going to decide. In that case, yes, maybe what you said.

Brian Lehrer: Something to watch for. Listeners, we can take a few transportation calls as we get this roundup from WNYC and Gothamist Stephen Nessen, 212-433-WNYC, 212-444-9692, on the things I mentioned just a minute ago in the intro or if you have anything else relevant to Stephen and what he may be reporting on, 212-433-9692, because he is your friendly neighborhood transportation reporter. Call or text.

Staying on congestion pricing and something else that's unresolved about it. Earlier this month, you reported on some of the still unanswered questions and paraphrasing here from Gothamist's weekly transportation newsletter, On The Way. By the way, listeners, if you're interested in transit news, sign up for the On The Way newsletter. After more than a dozen public hearings and a 4,000-page analysis, the MTA still couldn't tell you whether drivers on the Brooklyn Bridge would be tolled if they went to the FDR Drive going in either direction. I don't even understand the question, but now that there's a start date on the books, has that one question been answered?

Stephen Nessen: Yes, and I should clarify that it's not that they couldn't answer it. It was just that there wasn't a clear answer anywhere online to our question. It did take a couple of phone calls with the MTA and getting their congestion pricing expert on the phone with us to explain it, which to me was pretty shocking considering, you're right, June 30th is when they want to launch this. How can there be such a simple question that's unanswerable anywhere on the internet? It was not answerable on the Internet, but we answered the question. I'll explain it, Brian. I'm pretty sure we've had calls when you and I have been on before about this very question. I'm glad to finally be able to clarify and explain--

Brian Lehrer: It's about staying on the perimeter on the FDR Drive without actually going onto the city streets?

Stephen Nessen: Right. We know the FDR Drive is not going to be charged if drivers are on it, but what if you're in Brooklyn crossing the Brooklyn Bridge and want to get on the FDR Drive? If you're going north, there's a ramp that does not touch city streets. You can just cross the Brooklyn Bridge, get on the FDR Drive north. If you want to go south, that's a different story. It actually touches down for about 80 feet between-- I think it's on Pearl Street. Then you get on the FDR Drive south. There is no way to go from the Brooklyn Bridge to the FDR Drive south without being tolled. You will be hit with that $15 charge.

Brian Lehrer: You will be hit. That's kind of weird, though, right?

Stephen Nessen: It's a quirk. I was talking to Sam Schwartz about it and even he didn't know about it. He was pointing out that if Robert Moses had finished his job on the FDR Drive south, there would have been a ramp directly connecting it, but he didn't get what he wanted in that regard. It is like a confusing spaghetti swirl of on and off-ramps there.

Brian Lehrer: I think Janet in Little Italy, which is not far from there, may have a question kind of on the topic. Janet, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Janet: Thank you. Good morning. My question is about whether New York City residents will get any kind of a break, particularly elders or families with young children who cannot realistically exercise the option of public transportation. Someone who's 80 years old cannot take the subway to Port Authority to get out of town. Will there be any consideration given to some kind of discount for elders or people who have to travel with young children or animals? [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Janet, thank you.

Stephen Nessen: Here's my answer. When the legislation was written, there was an exemption for residents in the congestion zone that make less than $60,000 a year. They will get a tax credit equal to the tolls they paid. I suppose an elderly person is maybe not making $60,000 a year, they would qualify for that. For parents with kids or dogs, that is not part of the exemption.

Brian Lehrer: Right and of course--

Stephen Nessen: If you transport someone with a disability, though, or if you have a handicap license plate, you would get an exemption.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I think that's kind of where Janet's question lives, right? It's like, "Where's the line for what counts as a disability?" Maybe you have somebody who doesn't have handicap tags for their car or maybe they don't own the car, but somebody's giving somebody a ride. For whatever reason, it's not easy for them to take a bus or a subway. There's no way to register that, it sounds like.

Stephen Nessen: Well, there's the disability exemption. You can go to the MTA's website. I apologize. It's a bit a mouthful, but just google "MTA congestion relief exemptions" and you should go to the MTA website. They have a whole page on how to apply for that. For someone who has a disability or a health condition that prevents them from using public transit and there's a registered vehicle that is mainly just for transporting that person, whether it's a caregiver or a family member, they could apply for an exemption. You have to go through that process. It's online. The MTA opened it up Friday. There's a whole slew of requirements and proof that you need to provide. The MTA will make that determination.

Brian Lehrer: One more on exemptions. As you know, because we've done it, we could take exemption calls for the next hour and not exhaust the questions that people have, but relevant to what you were saying about when you enter Manhattan from the Brooklyn Bridge. You can not pay the toll if you go north on the FDR, but you have to pay it if you go south on the FDR. Listener writes, "How do you get out of Manhattan to Queens or Brooklyn without a toll?"

Stephen Nessen: Oh, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Stephen Nessen: Sorry, go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: No, you go.

Stephen Nessen: I was going to say, I feel like the one thing we always get when I'm on this show is, what is the deal with the Queensboro Bridge? Because every time I'm on, we get a call about it. Folks want to know about it. I think it behooves the MTA to really lay this out for folks. There is no way to cross the Queensboro Bridge from Manhattan without being tolled. Because as any driver knows, all of the ramps to get on the Queensboro Bridge in Manhattan heading to Queens are all below 60th Street. Even if you're coming from above the zone and you have no intention of driving around Manhattan, just want to go to Queens, you will still get hit with that toll because all the ramps are below the zone.

Brian Lehrer: There's no hack for that? Is Janno Lieber, head of the MTA, really okay with that? It doesn't sound like that's the intent of the toll, but it's going to snag people.

Stephen Nessen: It's going to snag people. I will add. There's one exemption, Brian, that people will definitely want to know about. If you're coming from Queens and you're going into Manhattan on that bridge, the Queensboro Bridge, there are three ramps. Two of them will take you into the tolling zone, but there's one. It's the upper-level north ramp that will take drivers to 62nd Street, which is outside of the zone where you will not be tolled. All the other ramps are tolled. I know it'll never put it to rest and we'll still get questions about it every week, but just putting that out there for folks.

Brian Lehrer: You're right. We've gotten that question together multiple times in the past. I think you finally or they finally provided the answer. I think that was very clear. Now, moving on from congestion pricing and on to bus service, the state budget includes more than $12 million, I see, to increase service on bus routes, but the pilot program that made one bus route in each borough free recently will come to an end at the end of this year. Let's take that piece first.

Stephen Nessen: Sure.

Brian Lehrer: I'm sure it was extremely popular and it was supposed to be, like I say, a pilot program for figuring out if they're going to add more free New York City bus routes, so why are they ending it?

Stephen Nessen: Well, first of all, the MTA was not fighting to keep it continuing. Again, MTA Chair Janno Lieber said recently, the other week, that they didn't see a noticeable increase in any ridership on those routes, which I think to them would have been an indication that it was a success. He said something like 90% of the people that were on the route are the ones that would take it anyway.

Of course, that doesn't take into account the huge relief in money for those folks who aren't paying $100 a month for bus service. To his mind, it wasn't successful because it didn't increase ridership. Again, I don't know. I give riders a little more benefit of the doubt on this one, but he said it would confuse people about which routes were free and which ones weren't. Again, there's a big sign that says, "Free bus, no fare." It seemed pretty clear. There was only one route in each borough.

They were not fighting to continue it. I think some of the state legislators, they wanted to spend $45 million to continue and expand it. That just didn't have the support from the governor or the MTA or enough lawmakers. What they did get was what you mentioned was a slight expansion, a $12 million expansion in existing bus routes, which, again, is way less than what they were fighting for. Again, they wanted another $45 million to increase bus service, but it got whittled down to $12 million in the end.

Brian Lehrer: I see that Janno Lieber, head of the MTA, said he's concerned that free buses send the wrong message at a moment when they're trying to push back on fare evasion. Mixed message?

Stephen Nessen: Yes, I suppose so. When I went out to talk to riders, they were really happy that they didn't have to pay $100-something a month for their unlimited MetroCards. It's a lot of money in their pocket every month over a year. That really adds up for working-class folks.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a call. Michael in the Bronx, you're on WNYC with Stephen Nessen. Hi, Michael.

Michael: Hi, Brian. My question is they talk about, for the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North riders who are in the city, getting a 10% discount. If you use OMNY instead of the MetroCard, there was no monthly discount. Now, I know they give a weekly discount. If you do the math and you have the monthly discount, it's not the same discount. You're losing money there. Why is that happening?

Brian Lehrer: That's a new one to me. Stephen, are you aware of that? Honestly, I didn't even know you could use OMNY on Metro-North or the Long Island Rail Road. I'm not sure I understand the question, but you're much more into the details than I am.

Stephen Nessen: I do have to plead somewhat unclear on this one. I don't know how much OMNY has expanded into Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North. I know it's coming soon. If the color says they're using it now, that's interesting. I was not necessarily aware of that.

Michael: I didn't mean that, but you--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Michael. You want to try to clarify?

Michael: Yes, I [unintelligible 00:17:17]. I know you can't use OMNY on the Metro-North or Long Island Rail Road. What I'm saying is I'm saying that they're giving this as a new discount to people who live in the city. However, if you use the subways and the local buses and the subway, then if you use Metro-North as a monthly discount-- if you use rather the MetroCard as a monthly discount, but if you use OMNY, there's no monthly discount. You still have the weekly discount. Because of that, people who did use the monthly discount with the MetroCard are paying more.

Brian Lehrer: It's really a MetroCard-versus-OMNY-system question.

Stephen Nessen: Yes. In fact, at the MTA committee meetings, which I was just tuning into this morning, there were actually some writers that said pretty much the same thing like, "We appreciate the discount, but then we have to get on the subways." [chuckles] There should be a free transfer, they think, to the subways from Metro-North or Long Island Rail Road, which would offset that, but that's right. If you're switching, you still have to pay the full MetroCard. If you're using OMNY, that's right. There's no monthly card. Although the MTA argues, the weekly discount is still cheaper than a monthly card, although we're still doing the math on that one.

Brian Lehrer: Right. You reported yesterday that the state budget includes one obscure detail that could have major implications, a ban on the use of facial recognition to enforce fare evasion. Really?

Stephen Nessen: Yes. When I spoke with lawmakers, they were saying like, "This is a line in the sand." They want to start to at least rein in the use of facial recognition for fare evasion, especially if the MTA is increasing the penalties, which they are. In the budget, right now, that maximum ticket is $100. They're going to raise that to a $200 fine if someone gets more than four fare evasion tickets in a given period of time. They added this provision to start setting the bar. This comes as the MTA, as we've spoken about, is increasing the use of surveillance cameras across the system.

The one thing about this, though, and the NYCLU confirmed it, is that while the MTA can't use it to crack down on fare evasion, the NYPD still has carte blanche access to MTA surveillance videos. They most certainly do use facial recognition when identifying folks, although they do say they use a human to match it before they just go and arrest people. Civil Liberties folks say it's not reliable, it's racist, the technology, and it can lead to wrongful arrests and pretty ugly situations.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a comment on that from a listener who has an opinion. He says, "30 years from now, they'll be talking about the Lieber legacy of policies enforcing racial discrimination and segregation much like we talk about the legacy of Robert Moses today." Fair or unfair to Lieber, the head of the MTA, that's one listener's opinion. There it is. What about toll evasion? It really does seem like more and more drivers have found clever ways to cover up or obstruct their license plates. There isn't quite the same public outrage, it seems to me. Does the state have a solution to that?

Stephen Nessen: Yes, so the budget did increase the penalties for that. Anyone caught violating the law would be forced to surrender the cover, the thing that's covering their plate. They could be subjected to a fine up to $500. If someone's caught more than three times covering their plate in a five-year period, they could have their vehicle registration suspended. As congestion pricing is coming online, there is an increased, at least group of penalties for it. I should add that it is a problem. I think when the MTA puts it out there, the amount of money lost is much more on buses than it is on fares and tolls. The MTA would say while it looks bad, it's actually a really small number of people that commit toll evasion.

Brian Lehrer: What can they do about bus fare evasion?

Stephen Nessen: Well, they are doing enforcement. They have these teams called "Eagle Teams" that go on buses and check whether people have paid the fare. It's pretty laborious. As my wife will tell you, who takes the kids to school on the bus, it's infuriating because they will also hold up the bus while they check people's phones to see if they paid. They're weaving their way through a very crowded bus while people are trying to get to school and work. That's quite laborious. [chuckles]

One thing that we've spoken about, and by "we," I mean the on-the-way team, our transit team here, is about making it easier for people to pay the fare on the buses. Because, right now, they only have rear-door boarding on SBS buses, those Select Bus Service buses. On the regular buses, they have OMNY readers in the back of the bus, but they're turned off because the MTA wants everyone to go through the front of the bus. There's an argument to be made that making it easier for people to pay will result in more payments. That said, it is bad. On those SBS buses, I think 54% of riders don't pay the fare.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Stephen Nessen: That's more than half obviously. On the regular buses, it's a little bit less like 43%, but still pretty high.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, it's tough. I've told the story with you before about being on an SBS bus, where the inspector came on and walk through. It's a little fear-inducing, right? I think he had a badge of some kind or uniform of some kind for the MTA is coming on and checking your receipts. How analog and old-world to still have to, for all the other buses, line up and go on one by one? They have some problems to solve.

An interesting text from a listener who writes, "I believe the MTA missed an opportunity. Had they committed to a global fare decrease upon implementation of congestion pricing, they would not see the increase in revenue at the start. For the long term, it would have minimized their PR problem, or at least created a hefty argument in favor of congestion pricing. That was very short-sighted."

They did announce that very small thing, I think it's fair to call it, in support of the congestion pricing rollout, which is that 10% discount for Metro-North and Long Island Rail Road trips within the city. It's really interesting suggestion. I don't know if it ever came up. Decrease the fare, at least temporarily, globally as they roll out congestion pricing or maybe the free bus route pilot experiment was their evidence that by reducing the fare, it's not going to increase ridership. I don't know. Only by that stick of the congestion pricing toll.

Stephen Nessen: Yes, it is interesting. I think they actually went the opposite route. They just raised the fares last year-

Brian Lehrer: That's true.

Stephen Nessen: -as we remember because, really, the money is just like it's really separate pools for them. Your fare goes to pay for the operating budget, whereas the tolls from congestion pricing go to the capital budget like buying new signals, train cars, making stations ATA-accessible. It's really two separate pools of money. The operating budget, as we reported for the last couple of years, was really in crisis due to COVID. They're just getting back on stable footing.

They did get some more money last year in the budget to balance the budget for the next couple of years, but they really do rely on the fares and the tolls, which is why there's so much talk about fare evasion and cracking down on it. It's not a drop in the bucket, but there are lots of different ways they could find to get more money as well. I've done stories on charging for parking on the street. Someone said, "If you charge more, you could actually fund free transit for everyone if you got drivers to pony up more just to park on the streets for free." I wonder if that's going to happen.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing for today and we'll touch this briefly, but it's really worthy of its own segment. New York City streets are getting deadlier. The city recorded 60 traffic deaths in the first three months of this year. That's up from last year. The state legislature did just pass Sammy's Law, which means the city will be allowed to lower speed limits to 20 miles per hour, lowering the default limit of 25 that exists in the five boroughs now. How much safer do the sponsors of that bill or any experts say it might make the streets?

Stephen Nessen: Oh, it's a wildly successful move. Like everyone says, the lower the speed limit, the less deadly a crash would be if someone is hit by a vehicle. It could really be the difference between life or death, 5 miles per hour.

Brian Lehrer: If the state law now allows the city to lower it to 20 miles an hour, does that mean the city is going to or just that the state will allow it to and then we'll see?

Stephen Nessen: We've certainly seen indications from the city council that there is a lot of support for lowering the speed limit. I'm sure there'll be pushback. Right now, the city council is allowed to vote and do it themselves without getting approval from Albany, which had been the default for as long as I've been alive.

Brian Lehrer: Stephen Nessen, WNYC and Gothamist transportation reporter. Always great to have you on. Thank you very much.

Stephen Nessen: Thanks for having me, Brian.

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