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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Yes, as you may have been hearing, Brittney Griner is free. She's on a plane headed home as we speak. We'll talk about it in just a minute and the prisoner swap with Russia that got it done, and we'll talk about these things too. We've learned in the last day that the January 6th committee will issue its final report on December 21st. Now, it probably won't come before ten o'clock that morning, so mark your calendars for what we'll be talking about on this show on December 22nd. Chairman Bennie Thompson announced the release date yesterday.

I wonder if yesterday will be remembered as a January 6th Prevention Day in Europe. You probably heard at least a headline about 25 arrests in Germany in a plot to overthrow the government there, by storming the German parliament. Sound familiar? Prosecutors in Germany say the group included QAnon followers-- sound familiar, anti-Semites-- what, in Germany, and generally people who believe Germany is run by a deep state. Sound familiar? The Washington Post reports those arrested included a current judge in the Berlin Regional Court.

Yesterday was also Democrats' celebrate the re-election of Raphael Warnock day. I think today's day two of that actually. What if Georgia's Republican state legislature was so partisan it wanted to cancel that election and declare Herschel Walker the winner? Well, the Supreme Court heard arguments in a North Carolina case yesterday that might let them do just that kind of thing with no review possible by state or federal courts. In fact, lawyer David Thompson argued that the state constitution in North Carolina should not apply to state elections. What? Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson could hardly believe her ears.

Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson: Is it your argument that the state constitution has no role to play, period?

David Thompson: That is our position.

Brian Lehrer: Imagine a January 6th or a German coup happening with no violence necessary, just a partisan vote in a legislature at the state level with no checks and balances. Let's talk about where these stories all come together, plus the breaking news that WNBA star Brittney Griner has been freed by Russia in a prisoner swap. With us now, Politico's White House bureau chief, Jonathan Lemire, who also had one of the best-selling political books of this year called The Big Lie: Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics After 2020. Jonathan is also host of the accurately titled MSNBC show, Way Too Early. When Does It Air? Weekdays at 5:00 AM Eastern and he's a regular presence on Morning Joe on MSNBC after that. Jonathan, thanks for staying up way too late to join us once again. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jonathan Lemire: My pleasure. Glad to be here, particularly on such a busy news day.

Brian Lehrer: Indeed. Brittney Griner, perhaps the greatest women's basketball player of this generation, maybe ever, a member of the Phoenix team, the Mercury, detained in Russia for having a cannabis vape pen and sentenced to years in a labor camp. The world generally saw her as a political prisoner of Vladimir Putin. How did the Biden administration get her out?

Jonathan Lemire: Negotiations for her releases have been ongoing for months, quietly and behind the scenes. It must be stated here, a remarkable moment of diplomacy that these talks could happen while Russia has its ongoing invasion of Ukraine. Of course, the United States and the West have rallied to support Kyiv throughout this process. There have not been much in the way of communications between the US and Moscow on other subjects, but there had always been a backchannel about Griner, about other Americans held in custody.

There have been stops and starts in the process. There had been some hope among American officials that Putin might be more willing to make a deal after the American midterms. We certainly know the Kremlin always keeps its eye and sometimes it's hands in the middle of American politics. Negotiations picked up again in recent weeks and it was left as a one-for-one deal. Viktor Bout, this arms dealer once known as the 'Merchant of Death', the prisoner the Russians wanted free. The Americans wanted Brittney Griner as well as Paul Whelan, another American citizen in custody, but the Russians said, no, this would be a one-for-one or there would be no deal at all.

The final arrangements made just in the last few hours. The prisoner swap occurred at the airport in Abu Dhabi in the UAE. The two prisoners were told to walk past each other on the tarmac as they traded planes.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Jonathan Lemire: Brittney Griner is now wheels up and heading back to the United States to San Antonio, to a military medical facility where she'll be evaluated and receive care after she spent nearly 10 months in a Russian prison.

Brian Lehrer: Any word on what shape she's in?

Jonathan Lemire: The early sense is that she's doing well. We heard from the president of the United States just about an hour ago from the Oval Office, standing with grinder's wife, Cherelle. American officials have said that they think that understandably, being in a prison like that has taken a toll on Griner, but largely, she appears to be in good health, and certainly, her wife said that she was in good spirits.

Now that she knew she was going to be on her way home, Griner was able to speak on the phone to the president-- the vice president and Secretary of State were there as well, and her wife in the Oval Office. They were able to have that conversation a short time ago, just before we saw the president in the Roosevelt Room telling the nation that Griner's release had been secured.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to play a clip of Biden in just a minute from that appearance a short time ago. Tell us a little bit more about Viktor Bout, who Griner was exchanged for. I'm seeing him described with phrases like 'notorious Russian arms dealer' and an 'international arms smuggler.' Who is Viktor Bout and why was he in prison in the United States?

Jonathan Lemire: Viktor Bout was a bad man, is a bad man, and done a lot of things for which he has been charged with serious crimes. He is yes, indeed, an international arms dealer. He was supplying renegade forces throughout the world. He was a notorious criminal for a long time. He was ensnared and finally arrested as part of a sting operation that the US helped conduct where there was a front that he was going to send arms to the group of rebels in the nation of Columbia. That is when he was finally jailed.

Now, at that moment, Viktor Bout had largely retired from the business if you will. That he was less active in his chosen profession being selling arms. Despite that, his resume was long and lethal. I will say there has been already in the last hour or so, some questions in the intelligence community here in the United States, so obviously we're so relieved that Brittney Griner has found her freedom, but worried about a precedent it sets that someone Viktor Bout could be set free.

Frankly, worried about whether this was a fair deal that Griner who was arrested for such a minor infraction, having these vape pens in her bag when she landed at the airport outside Moscow, versus someone Viktor Bout who has a lot of blood on his hands, that that was a one-for-one deal. They fear that is an unfair deal and one that could set a bad template going forward. The Biden administration has simply said this was the only deal on the table. It was a painful decision, but one they needed to make in order to bring Griner home.

Brian Lehrer: We already have a tweet from a listener who writes, "Sorry, 'Merchant of Death' traded for basketball player is not a good trade." Is anyone questioning not just the equivalency of their crimes and the potential danger of Bout going forward? Sometimes hostage negotiations, if we consider Brittney Griner hostage, are derided as giving the bad guys more incentive to take more hostages.

Jonathan Lemire: Yes. In fact, we heard a warning from the president today saying that Americans should be careful if traveling overseas in nations run by dictators in these authoritarian nations. That they could be in fact snatched for profit or for a deal like this. We obviously had a wave of Americans after September 11th, there was Americans captured by terror groups. That still does happen from time to time though we're also seeing nation-states do so, unless they wouldn't be called hostages, rather perhaps prisoners.

We have seen, whether it be Turkey or Iran or Syria or here in this case Russia, rogue states who capture Americans and then try to broker some deal for their freedom. That is a concern. What is a good day? Clearly, that is a concern going forward, as is the fate that we should note here, Paul Whelan, who's the other American whose case has been so championed in recent months. He is also held in Russia, and the Biden administration attempted to secure his release as well but the Russians valued him differently in the words of administration officials. They've accused him of being a spy. They arrested him on espionage charges. They therefore valued him more highly and they wanted a lot more in return. They weren't not going to do a two-for-one. They weren't going to do a two-for-two. They wanted several people back for him, administration officials say, including they asked for some spy in US custody the Americans claim they don't have. They also asked for someone else who is currently incarcerated in Germany, not in the United States at all, so that deal wasn't on the table.

We heard from President Biden today, administration officials have echoed this all morning, that they're going to keep working for Paul Whelan's release. They have not forgotten about him, but there's no deal imminent there.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, the US position is that Paul Whelan is not a spy. He's another innocent American being held by Russia. He's obviously a lot less famous than Britney Griner, which makes it even harder for him, and as you say, President Biden did address his ongoing captivity. We should mention, did Britney Griner's wife, who appeared at the announcement with the president and she spent, to my ear, more time talking about how they support Paul Whelan as the next person who needs to be released than she even talked about her own joy and relief in having her own wife released by Russia.

Biden did also address Paul Whelan's ongoing captivity when he announced Griner's release this morning, saying this.

Biden: We've not forgotten about Paul Whelan, who's been unjustly detained in Russia for years. This was not a choice of which American to bring home. We brought home Trevor Reed when we had a chance early this year. Sadly, for totally illegitimate reasons, Russia is treating Paul's case differently than Britney's. While we have not yet succeeded in securing Paul's release, we are not giving up. We will never give up, but remain in close touch with Paul's family, the Whelan family, and my thoughts and prayers are with them today. They have to have such mixed emotions today.

Brian Lehrer: I'm sure they do. One of the weirdest things about the detention of Britney Griner over almost nothing is that she is actually a big beloved star in Russia as a basketball player. Did the Russian people support this? Did they know about it?

Jonathan Lemire: You are certainly right about that. There are many WNBA stars who are not paid frankly nearly as much as their male counterparts, but in some cases, not even enough to have that be their only job. A lot of them supplement their income by also playing overseas, the WNBA off season. Britney Griner, as you noted, famous big star, one of the most successful female basketball players this country has ever produced. Even she was going to Russia and frankly, earned more money there by playing overseas than she did the United States, and she had been doing it for a while when she was arrested on the eve of the Ukraine-

Brian Lehrer: Which says something about WNBA pay scales, but that's another show.

Jonathan Lemire: That's another show, but in a topic that's certainly worth spending a lot of time on. In fact, there has been a warning now that Americans should not do this. American women players or athletes of any sort should not be going overseas to Russia and like-minded countries to supplement their income because it's just too dangerous. Griner was heading back to Russia when she was arrested.

It is the timing here. It's unclear truthfully if what the Russian people thought. Dissent and protest is not something that happens all that often there. There's been spasms of it during this war, but it quickly dies down. Certainly, the most famous dissident at the moment, Alexei Navalny, is serving in a long prison sentence himself in Russia. Her arrest was always seen as she was a political pawn. That she was snatched by Russian authorities over a very minor transgression, one she admits that she did, but certainly very, very minor on the eve of the war.

There was a sense that she would always be some chip or tool that Putin could use for some means during this conflict. At the time she was snatched, of course, Russians thought this would be an easy victory in Ukraine and it's proved to be anything but.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, our lines are open for whatever you want to say about the release of Britney Griner, or anyone with connections to Germany listening right now, we're about to get into this in a minute after a short break. Anyone with connections to Germany who wants to say or ask anything about the foiled coup attempt there, or anyone on Rafael Warnock's victory, or the North Carolina Supreme Court case, which could make future January 6ths easier, future big lies easier to enact without any political violence.

We'll get into all these things with Jonathan Lemire, Politico's White House bureau chief at 212-433-WNYC if you want to join the conversation. 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer as we continue after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Yes, [unintelligible 00:15:22] the drum roll. You had me in suspense there for a minute. What is the drum roll going to announce? Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're talking about freedom for Britney Griner, the coup attempt in Germany with echoes of January 6th and more. To reintroduce our guest, it's Politico's White House bureau chief, Jonathan Lemire, who also had one of the best selling political books of this year, which is relevant to this conversation called The Big Lie: Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics After 2020. Jonathan is also host of the accurately titled MSNBC show, Way Too Early, which airs weekdays at 5:00 AM Eastern.

He's a regular presence on Morning Joe on MSNBC after that, though half his Twitter feed right now is about his outrage over the lack of good off season moves by his Boston Red Sox. Jonathan, I'm sorry about the whole Aaron Judge thing.

Jonathan Lemire: Yes, like I said, it's a big news day. The biggest news of all is that the Red Sox are asleep at the wheel this off season. They have let Xander Bogaerts, their homegrown shortstop two time World Series winner, leave in a free agent deal to the San Diego Padres, continuing a trend of them not paying their own stars what they're worth, and then seeing them leave town. Mookie Betts first, Xander Bogaerts now. I worry that Rafael Devers will be next.

Yes, the other side of that coin, the Yankees, took care of their star and yes, they probably overpaid, and those last couple years of Aaron Judge's deal probably won't be great, but that doesn't matter. He's the MVP. He had a record setting season, he's the face of the franchise, he's their best player. They made sure he wouldn't play in another uniform.

Brian Lehrer: I wanted to let you get that off your chest. Now, back to serious-

Jonathan Lemire: You could tell it was building up, yes.

Brian Lehrer: That's right. It was definitely building up in your Twitter feed. Now back to serious things. Let's go a little west from Russia, that we were just talking about to Germany. 25 people who sound like January 6th style conspiracy theorists arrested for planning to overthrow the government, including by the very January 6th method of storming the Parliament. Plot foiled in advance apparently, but is there a kind of international movement now of right wingers and white supremacists and QAnon believers who may actually have been inspired by January 6th or be part of an international hole of some kind?

Jonathan Lemire: Well, you just hit upon a few important connections there, and let's take a few of them here. One is the fact that this is extreme right wing groups that they have seen at the moment. This one in Germany, obviously what we saw here in Washington, I'm looking out the window here at the US Capitol as we speak. Also, the fact that so much of it is fueled by disinformation and misinformation that is spread online, fake news, actual fake news, things are that are told to them by leaders of their groups that convinces them that the government is out to get them or that their chosen candidate was unfairly excluded from power.

Then there's the conspiracy theory part of this too. A number of those arrested in Germany were followers of QAnon like group where they have these wild elaborate conspiracy theories that couldn't be further from the truth, but do bring people together, and they prey on the vulnerable and fuel violence or at least the threats thereof. That's what we saw here. This plot was, of course, thankfully stopped before they could carry out their plan, but it was dangerous and governments across the world here, at least in certain democracies, are worried about copycats.

Brian Lehrer: Was there any explicit Trump connection, not that he was involved in trying to overthrow the government of Germany, but that any of the people involved believed in Donald Trump as some kind of savior, because that's part of the actual QAnon theory, right?

Jonathan Lemire: Donald Trump has had a bad legal month to be sure, but at least at this point, no one has accused him of being involved in this plot two storm the German parliament. Yes, you are right that the QAnon theory is that he is almost a savior like character and that he is coming back to restore the United States to its proper greatness. I have not seen reports that he was cited in the German version of this, but certainly that it's connected in terms of believing that there's this deep state. That's the parallel here is that Trump and his followers in the United States accused a deep state of keeping them out of power and holding their supporters down. Those in the German plot believed the same thing was happening there.

Brian Lehrer: The other side of the deep state conspiracy theory which is scary, The Washington Post says that 3,000-- this is not the scary part. The Washington Post says 3,000 police officers, German police officers were involved in the raid but reports are also that some members of the military and this judge in Berlin were involved in the plot. That's the scary part. Shades of the Oath Keepers in this country made up largely of former and some present police and military personnel.

Does it look like they could possibly have had enough defections to stage a successful coup because it seemed like they were really planning to try to stage a violent takeover and rule by force.

Jonathan Lemire: Yes, it did seem they had a shot at success here. This was a pretty heavily armed, significant force that was going to do this. The American parallel, there were thousands of people there on January 6th, the reports of some weapons in the crowd. As dangerous as that was though-- and people lost their lives because of it, the group of January 6th did not seem quite as well armed in the moment as these folks did.

We do know from trial and you mentioned it, the Oath Keepers as had a cache of weapons stored at their hotel in Arlington, Virginia a short time away hoping that Trump would declare The Insurrection Act and that therefore there would be violence in the streets and they would take up arms in the name of Donald Trump, so those are scary parallels.

To your other point, this is something that worries US officials greatly, if some of the far right beliefs held within members of this nation's own law enforcement, federal law enforcement, local police officers, state police, agencies and the like who have in recent years seemingly drifted to the right, some of them anyway. The military has had a real issue with white supremacists in the military and again, we don't want to paint with a broad brush. We're not talking about everyone, we're not talking about even a huge portion, but we're talking about enough that it's a concern.

That we have seen officials here, particularly in the wake of January 6th, try to drum out those with extremists and potentially dangerous beliefs.

Brian Lehrer: Courtney in Weehawken, you're on WNYC with Politico's White House bureau chief, Jonathan Lemire, as we talk about Brittney Griner's release, the coup attempt in Germany and more. Hi, Courtney.

Courtney: Hi. How are you, Brian, and thanks for having me. I am so elated that Brittney is finally out and released and I'm so glad that Biden delivered on that. I'm curious though, I've heard a lot about Whelan, but I haven't heard anything about Marc Fogel who's the teacher who was similarly sentenced for carrying marijuana in Russia and he was sentenced to 14 years. I remember there was this big thing with his family saying that they wanted him not to be forgotten in this whole thing, but I haven't heard anything about it. Does your guest have any updates or info about whether or not the Biden administration is still working on his case or has he been forgotten or anything?

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, you know that name, Marc Fogel?

Courtney: I'll take my question [unintelligible 00:23:38].

Brian Lehrer: Thank you Courtney, thank you very much.

Jonathan Lemire: Yes, Fogel was sentenced this past summer to 14 years in prison. He had what his family says was about 20 grams of medical marijuana on him because of chronic back pain and he was incarcerated. He certainly-- as the caller correctly notes, his case has not received nearly the attention that Briner's has or even Whelan's has. US officials have said that he is like any other American, they believe wrongfully detained, that they are working to be released.

There are Republicans, in fact, a local congressman in Fogel's home state of Pennsylvania who suggests that the US-- who has criticized Biden administration, says that they have not done enough for Fogel, that they have prioritized other cases. This is though I think in the wake of the Griner release and the ongoing debate on how to try to get Whelan home, I think cases like Fogel potentially could move up to the forefront as well.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a Marc Fogel story from The Washington Post from July headline This American teacher also sits in a Russian jail, worried nobody cares. It says arrested last summer after arriving in Moscow with medical marijuana in his luggage. Marc Fogel has a case that parallels the ordeal of WNBA star Brittney Griner, but his plight has mostly gone unnoticed.

I'll just tell people a little bit more about his story as The Washington Post reported it. That he was always just Mr. Fogel to the students he entranced with lectures about the Cold War but he is Marc Hilliard Fogel on his well worn passports, abundantly stamped from his many years of teaching international baccalaureate history courses at schools attended by the children of US diplomats and the global elite in Columbia, Venezuela, Oman, Malaysia, and for the past 10 years, in Russia.

Then it says, "Fogel's charmed life has turned dark at the age of 60," and then it describes his medical marijuana prescription and his arrest in Russia. Now, at least we've said the name Marc Fogel out loud and talked a little bit about his story. We went west from Russia to Germany, let's go further west to Washington DC where the Supreme Court heard arguments yesterday in that North Carolina case that could allow the legislature to impose new electoral districts to redistricting case officially, and by extension, perhaps election outcomes with no review by the state's courts. They say that would be consistent with history. Justice Sotomayor was like, "What?"

Justice Sotomayor: Yes, if you rewrite history it's very easy to do.

Brian Lehrer: That's a very short clip of Justice Sotomayor being incredulous with the lawyer arguing this case for the plaintiffs. I should say, Jonathan, that this case is not explicitly about canceling the 2020 election or any election, it's about redistricting. What are the implications here?

Jonathan Lemire: The implications are significant. We talked about this this morning on my show, Way Too Early, which you noted, 5:00 AM on MSNBC. It's about North Carolina case and about redistricting and therefore gerrymandering and about who should be able to set the rules and whether the local court should have a say.

Basically, this has set off real alarm bells throughout legal groups, throughout government groups, throughout many Democrats, former Attorney General Eric Holder in particular has become a leading voice crusading against this, suggesting that it would be deeply dangerous to throw out a portion of the United States electoral tradition and eliminate this oversight by the local courts.

The fear would be that, in this case, Republican legislatures could not just redistrict as they want but declare winners as they want, and suggests that they would certify the victory of their chosen candidate, perhaps not the candidate who got the most wins. Now, the early reading of the tea leaves after yesterday's hearing and the oral arguments of the Supreme Court were that the most muscular version, as Lee [unintelligible 00:28:15] put to me this morning, of what North Carolina wanted probably would not occur.

There was skepticism from those moderate conservatives, which John Roberts is one, on this that there was a sense that it wouldn't be fully implemented, it would not be allowed to be fully implemented. We'll have to see, there are months ahead before we get the decision released but it's one that for a case that was under the radar until very recently, it's one that has significant electoral implications.

Brian Lehrer: Under the radar previously, but NPR, in its reporting, is calling this the Supreme Court's marquee case of the year. With all those implications, the suspension, the termination of checks and balances in election law at the state level, no wonder it's being called the marquee case.

I wonder, if they're going to cancel democracy or try to to that degree, cutting out a whole one of the three branches of government, the legislatures, the executive branches, and the courts, I wonder if this is somehow consistent or just another coincidence with Donald Trump posting the other day that because of what he claims without evidence was decisive fraud in the 2020 election, that the Constitution should be terminated. He actually said Constitution should be terminated and we played this clip yesterday but I'm going to play it again. Since presidents swear to uphold the constitution when they're sworn in, Mitch McConnell said this.

Mitch McConnell: Anyone seeking the presidency who thinks that the constitution could somehow be suspended or not followed, it seems to me would have a very hard time being sworn in as president of United States.

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, as a sports fan, give me a scorecard here. Who's winning among Washington Republicans around this: Donald Trump or the Constitution?

Jonathan Lemire: Right now, the Constitution still has the lead on Donald Trump and his temper tantrum which he posted on social calling for the Constitution to be terminated was fueled by his anger at these Twitter files. The Elon Musk group-- he unearthed the records from Twitter, he says, [unintelligible 00:30:41] with the help of a journalist to suggest that Twitter had unfairly suppressed coverage that would be unflattering to Democrats in particular over Hunter Biden's laptop on the run-up to the 2020 election.

The problem, of course, with his theory is that the federal government at the time was controlled by Republicans, Donald Trump was president. There's no there there in terms of the theory it would seem, but it was enough to set Trump off, and more importantly than his rantings and ravings on election that was two years ago, is what it means going forward. You did hear from McConnell say though he didn't use Trump's name.

We should always note this, McConnell has not ruled out voting for Trump or Trump to be the 2024 Republican nominee, but McConnell certainly has been far more quick to criticize Trump even if he doesn't name him since January 6th. A, number of other Republicans including those who are pretty staunch Trump allies also spoke out about this in the Senate saying that, of course, there's no place for this. This is not appropriate. We are the party of the Constitution.

Trump has not received much in the way of support for this one and he has attempted to walk it back in a future social media post. It is interesting to see how he still is the loudest voice in the party. Certainly, we're seeing more Republicans willing to suggest they're going to challenge him, lawmakers speaking out against him, or those considering their own 2024 bid. Trump certainly had a pretty rough campaign kickoff including a dinner with a white supremacist. The rank poll suggests that he is still the choice of the rank-and-file voters.

Things like this and fears about the 2024 election and the integrity of the election, he's going to keep fueling that and it's going to continue to challenge the American democracy.

Brian Lehrer: Calling in to defend the exchange of a Russian arm smuggler known as the Merchant of Death for basketball player Britney Griner, Labe in Montclair, you're on WNYC Hello, Labe. Do we have Labe in Montclair? All right, we're going to try to come back to Labe. I think calling to oppose that swap is Peter. Peter in Westport, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Peter: Brian. Good morning to you. First of all, shout out to Jonathan Lemire, the James Brown of political pundits given the hours that he works are the hardest working man in political punditry. Shout out to Mr. Lemire.

Brian Lehrer: Wait, Jonathan, have you ever been compared to James Brown before? This may be the best day of your life.

Jonathan Lemire: That is a very good comparison. Not to do an obnoxious namedrop, but Stevie Van Zandt, the guitarist of the E Street Band, said something. [unintelligible 00:33:31] that I was the hardest working man that he knew, and considering he stands next to Bruce Springsteen most of the time, I'm taking that one too, so thank you for these kind words.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, Peter, go ahead.

Peter: Yes, you're very welcome. I recognize that what I'm about to say puts me as an absolute outlier given the commonality in relation to the Britney Grinder case. I have zero empathy and sympathy not just for Brittney Griner, but all the Brittney Griners of the world who knowingly put themselves into harm's way by landing in countries, and in her case, as a very well-known sporting figure, no matter how minor the infraction, at worse, it's uber stupidity. Then for any government to go into compulsions around what we are going to give up and, in this case, a well-known arms deal makes zero sense to me.

You do the crime, you do the time. Now, I'm in no way defending the harshness of the time that she got, but bluntly, I took the same attitude when I was living back home every time an Australian got arrested in Singapore for drug smuggling, where it was universally known you smuggle anything into Singapore, your life's not going to be happy afterwards. On that basis, and as I said, I recognize that I'm an outlier but I have zero empathy or sympathy. If we are going to get into the negotiation business of assets, we need to start in things that actually are far more important.

Brian Lehrer: Peter, thank you very much. Funny enough, I think Labe in Montclair, who I think is there now has a comment that serves as a response to Peter. Labe on WNYC. Hello?

Labe: Yes. Hey, it's an honor to be on the show. I'm on the Bureau of Prisons website right now and it says that Viktor Bout was to be released on August 19th, 2029. That means on a 25 year sentence, he's done 18 years. I happen to know from reading the paper that Judge Scheindlin who sentenced him said that he's done enough time and that it's not necessary to keep him in jail any longer. I haven't heard this mentioned from anyone in the news that he did at least 18 years and that he's going to be released in less than seven years anyway. I know he is a bad guy, but 18 years is a lot of time, so I don't think it's-

Brian Lehrer: That's a great point if it's accurate that I also had not heard before. Jonathan, can you confirm that?

Jonathan Lemire: Oh, that is true. The judge who released him and I alluded this earlier, even noted-- I'm sorry, the judge who sentenced him even noted that he was more or less retired at the time of his arrest and conviction. That he had certainly-- no one was denying the awfulness and the severity of the crimes he had committed prior to that, but that he was moving into the next phase of his life. It is also true as the caller notes, he has already served a fairly substantial amount of his sentence, but that's still seven more years. That's not nothing.

Certainly, there is a fear though that by reputation, that this is what some in the intelligence community have said, that because he is a [unintelligible 00:37:11] name in the international arms world if you will and the Russians were able to get him back, that may inspire similar arrests, Americans taken hostage or prisoner, take your pick depending on what country you're in, in order to try to get back other valuable assets. I heard the other caller suggest that Griner knew what she was getting into.

Look, we should just note that she did admit her mistake. She said it was a mistake. She was extraordinarily apologetic, but it is hard to argue that her mistake would warrant anywhere near the punishment that Russia was giving her.

Brian Lehrer: All right, it's time to let Jonathan go and have his third breakfast or whatever meal you eat on your schedule at 10:38 in the morning. Politico's White House bureau chief Jonathan Lemire, who was also host of the MSNBC show Way Too Early, which airs at 5:00 AM and author of one of the bestselling political books of this year called The Big Lie: Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics After 2020. If you're interested, folks, in hearing more about that because of this conversation, we did a book interview with Jonathan in the summer. You can go back into our files and listen to our conversation about his book The Big Lie.

Jonathan, again, seriously, thanks for extending your day even more and staying up with us on the breaking news on Britney Griner and all the other things we discussed.

Jonathan Lemire: Brian, you were always so generous and it's a pleasure to be here. Happy to come back at any time.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Much more to come.

 

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