[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, a closer look at Mayor Eric Adams's new proposal for a Department of Sustainable Delivery for New York City. Department of Sustainable Delivery. Can the mayor and city council work together to tame the Wild West e-bike and moped free-for-all we now have on New York City streets and sidewalks that's making many people feel unsafe and is causing some actual grievous harm? Can they tame the two-wheelers while respecting and supporting the delivery workers who depend on them and maybe even make their jobs and their vehicles safer for them? Does sustainable mean more climate-friendly, too?

This isn't just about, say, Gruhub and Uber Eats, New Yorkers get so many packages delivered these days. There's even an idea in there for trucks to stop at certain boundary points and have packages delivered those final blocks to your door using cargo bikes in parts of the city. A lot of people don't even know what a cargo bike is. We'll talk about that. Those would change the mix of vehicles on the city streets yet again, we can at least say that. Here's the mayor in his State of the City address last week, unveiling the idea.

Mayor Eric Adams: We cannot have mopeds speeding down our sidewalks and forcing people to jump out of the way. You must also protect the drivers and delivery workers who show up for New Yorkers at all times of day and night, all kinds of weather. That is why we are in discussion with the city council to create the Department of Sustainable Delivery, a first-in-the-nation entity that will regulate new forms of delivery transit and ensure their safety.

Brian Lehrer: We'll explore the potential implications of a New York City Department of Sustainable Delivery now with John Surico, a journalist, teacher, and researcher who focuses on issues of mobility, sustainability, and open space among other things. He's a regular contributor to Bloomberg CityLab and an adjunct professor at NYU's Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute and writes a newsletter called Streetbeat. John, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

John Surico: Thanks so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Is the mayor proposing a new city department that would have a commissioner, that sort of thing?

John Surico: Yes. The most immediate action that is going to come out of this is going to be another task force where the hope is that they'd gather the app-based companies that so many of these delivery workers are working for, representatives of delivery workers, transit advocates, city council members, city hall, to all come together and really create the framework of what this department would look like. I think, to your point, with your introduction, you really got at how complex this issue is and how many different sides there are to this issue. I think they're going to really try to figure out how to get this right.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. I can say, just speaking personally, I know I don't cross the street the same way I did five years ago. I used to basically look out for cars in the street that might be driving against the light, and that was about it. Now, I'm looking both ways crossing a one-way street because the micro-mobility vehicles don't care about one-way streets, and I look for those vehicles blasting through red lights at frankly a much higher frequency than cars do. At least that's the way it looks to me. Is that my imagination?

John Surico: No. I would say this is so interesting because it's something that-- I'm a regular cyclist myself, and I talk to my most progressive of friends, the people who are cycling every day, and even they complain about this general sense of disorder on the streets that's really come about these five to six past years. I think this is just a classic case of the technology really getting ahead of policymaking. These innovations landed on our streets much like urban lifted 10 years ago, and the city's really trying to keep up. We're seeing this with the lithium-ion battery regulations. We're seeing this with now wider bike lanes for the city to really catch up to this really rapidly changing technology.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a way to know the actual harm as opposed to the feeling of harm from all this? We get lots of calls from New Yorkers who feel unsafe with the use of mopeds and e-bikes and scooters on sidewalks and breaking other traffic rules, but it's interesting in the polarized city debate about micro-utility vehicles, and you know this, defenders say there's no data that shows they are a danger to pedestrians like cars are, but advocates for more regulation and enforcement, and full disclosure, a friend of mine is one of those advocates after her life was dramatically and permanently altered after being hit by one such vehicle driving illegally.

Those advocates say the data are obscured because the categories the city keeps aren't clear enough to distinguish those accidents from those that are car-caused. My question is, do you know if the city has a way of really counting those incidents and their harm so that can inform how much regulation is needed?

John Surico: I would say, right now, what exists is not a great system. It's either has to be reported directly to the NYPD if it gets reported at all, and you have situations where it might just be a hit-and-run situation where there's either no reporting or nothing that comes of it. Also, you're directly sometimes interfacing with the app-based companies, not necessarily with a car driver or an insurance company.

When I spoke with Meera Joshi, the deputy mayor of operations who really helped inspire this idea given her time at the Taxi & Limousine Commission, which we could talk about a little later, she talked about how these data sets are all over the place right now. One thing that this department would really focus on is getting all this data from places like Uber Eats, Grubhub, Seamless, all these companies, and really try to figure out how often are drivers, are riders going the wrong way. How often are they going the wrong way down a one-way street or going through the red lights? It would really give them the ability to collate this data and make decisions based on this data right now that really is left to private companies to obtain in half.

Brian Lehrer: I don't understand because people who are hurt, certainly people who are killed, but even people who are hurt if they're hit by one of these vehicles, presumably there would be a police report in a lot of those cases, so they'd be able to see some numbers. I see you wrote an article on Curbed in December, headlined, It Was One of the Deadliest Years for Cyclists in New York City, but pedestrian traffic deaths are reaching historic lows. Getting worse for bicyclists, better for pedestrian, but what's going on? What are some of those numbers, and do we know about pedestrian deaths or injuries from micro-mobility vehicles? Is there a number?

John Surico: Specifically, when it gets to a point where it's so dramatic like it's a fatality, then that's something that, of course, goes to the NYPD, or we have a very serious injury. I think when you speak with cyclists and pedestrians, it's really the near miss that happens so regularly that's not being reported, and then this is fomenting this feeling of sense of disorder.

As it relates to Vision Zero, one of the more interesting data points that comes from that is that one of the biggest dramatic increases in cyclist deaths have been from e-bikes, particularly because my sense through the reporting is that they're going at faster speed, so what would normally be just an injury is becoming a death because of the speed.

It's something that DOT really repeats over and over the city agency that says, this is really something that we're seeing in the data that didn't exist five years ago, and it's something that they're hyper-focused on is that could be drawing up the cyclist desk because we're in this really strange period where we're seeing a safety for pedestrians, even if it's hard to believe. I think one of the first lines of my story was that it's hard to believe, but at the same time, we're having this bizarro world for cyclists that looks very different.

Brian Lehrer: Is that to say that these e-bike injuries and deaths, and I think I saw a stat that said out of 36 bicyclists deaths last year, 30 were riding e-bikes. If that stat is right, are those just e-bikes having a one-vehicle crash, or is that e-bikes and cars colliding, and because the e-bikes are going faster than regular pedal bikes, the injuries are more grievous?

John Surico: Typically, the latter. This is a crash with a car overwhelmingly so.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. One could argue it's still the cars through better Vision Zero policies-

John Surico: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: -that need to be more regulated, but still, while recognizing that there is additional danger if you're riding an e-bike and going above a certain speed. So far--

John Surico: That's good.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Listeners, I'm going to put out the phone number because many of you are calling in already, and I want everybody to have a shot. Do you like the mayor's idea of creating a Department of Sustainable Delivery, and what do you think such a department should or shouldn't do? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. For our guest, John Surico, who studies this thing and teaches at NYU and writes for Bloomberg CityLab among other places, call or text 212-433-WNYC.

I want to make sure to get the delivery workers' point of view and aspect into this. So far, I've read that Uber, as a company, is supportive of this initiative, which might surprise people, and delivery workers are suspicious. Is that your take so far on who likes and doesn't like this idea of regulating what we call micromobility vehicles in new ways?

John Surico: Absolutely. I think rightfully so, delivery workers are coming from a history where things really didn't change until the pandemic where New Yorkers really felt like liberated workers were the frontline workers that were coming through the pandemic, bringing food, going through the worst of situations to really help people, bringing medical supplies, food, things like that. Before that, I think it's hard to remember now where e-bikes and mopeds were being heavily enforced on the streets where it was illegal up until a couple of years ago. They have that in their memory of persecution.

I think rightfully so, when they hear a new government entity, especially when a fair share of the workforce is undocumented, it can be very scary to hear that because that could mean more enforcement, that could mean more bureaucracy, more regulation. I think in the responses that have come from delivery workers since then there's a mix of that, but also, there is a very real fear around the battery fires, there's a real fear about labor exploitation. These are issues that the department would try to take on.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned the fact that many of the workers in this field are undocumented, and I see that Deputy Mayor Joshi, who you mentioned that you spoke to recently, who's working on this new department idea, was quoted saying they might require IDs for all delivery drivers once this department gets going, but since many are undocumented, there would probably be resistance to that, even though the quote I saw said, well, maybe it would be the city IDs, not a driver's license ID from the state, the CIDs, which were created specifically for undocumented immigrants to have some form of legal ID.

John Surico: Yes, and I think this mirrors what has been an ongoing debate over a city council bill sponsored by Councilmember Rob Holden to register every e-bike on the city streets. This is something that has really divided the transit advocacy community because they believe this would lead to persecution or enforcement, while others would say this would help rain in the sense of disorder we've discussed. It mirrors that ongoing debate between classification registration, and what's the right approach there.

Again, Joshi is coming back from her days for TLC, where this commission was created 40 years ago to really start doing that regulation for taxi drivers, which, in the early 1970s, was a similar Wild Wild West of what's going on now in terms of lots of different taxi companies came into New York City and were competing, and the TLC came from that time to create a standardized approach, which is why I think you have companies like Uber cheering on something like this proposal.

Brian Lehrer: Listener, tax, regulate, and insurance for all motorized bikes, then data can be obtained. Tim in Manhattan wants to raise a fundamental question about an underlying premise in this whole conversation and this whole topic. Tim, that's you, go.

Tim: Oh.

Brian Lehrer: Go for it, Tim. Yes, it's you.

Tim: Brian, I'm on the air?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, you are on the air. Don't get nervous.

Tim: Brian, right now, I'm calling you from the snowy Catskill Mountains, but my wife and I live and work in Manhattan in Greenwich Village. We have been riding our bicycles day in and day out, year-round on the streets of Manhattan. We, today, literally have never felt less safe on our human-powered bicycles.

My question is, why, post-pandemic, do we continue to refer to delivery as an essential service? I'll give you one glaring example. We live on West 12th Street, Murray's Bagels, right around the corner, I witnessed a guy on a moped, a gas-powered moped, no helmet, no plates, going down 6th Avenue, taking a left onto West 12th Street, and I saw a young able-bodied man come bounding down his stoop to accept the small paper bag that had a bagel in it. What is arguably the easiest big city in the United States in which to walk and bike to shop and dine out, why are so many adults not getting dressed, going outside, shopping and dining in their neighborhoods, and instead picking up their phones and having someone bring it to them?

Brian Lehrer: From around the corner. John, have you thought about that underlying premise, and has it changed that much since the pandemic and not gone back, even though now people are not afraid to go to their grocery store?

John Surico: This is a larger existential question about New Yorkers getting out and about and going to get what they need for their everyday existence, but a lot of New Yorkers can't do that, either they can't walk, they have mobility issues. I think we really see the strength and value of this industry, especially during snowstorms or really horrible weather events when they're still out there delivering food to people.

To the caller's point, I think one thing that it does touch upon is our addiction to delivery. I think, Brian, you really mentioned this at the offset, which is, we've just become this completely delivery-addicted city, and I think this is something that's proceeding around the world, of course. I don't see that shifting anytime soon.

Personally, as a New Yorker who hears the e-bikes and mopeds outside every day, I'd much prefer to hear that than huge delivery trucks every day going down my street. It's something that transit advocates do argue that this industry can help take those trucks off the street that we know really through neighborhoods are super dangerous and all those things. It's become this industry that is pivotal to New York City in the industry here, but also something that we got to really figure out how to make it work in the environment we have.

Brian Lehrer: It's not just New York City, and Tim, thank you for your call from the snowy Catskills. Call us again, whether you're in the city or not. It's nationally. Again, I think the pandemic change the degree of it, the amount that people order from Amazon or a million other places, they can get packages delivered to their door, not just, let's say, food and things from around the corner.

There's actually another part of this Eric Adams Department of Sustainability blueprint that addresses that. I'm curious to get your take on this because this part hasn't been discussed as much, and that's the use of cargo bikes, and you can explain what a cargo bike is because a lot of people don't know, that would replace the trucks. On the last whatever it is, few blocks to people's doors, so that the city streets don't get as clogged with trucks as they've been getting since the beginning of the pandemic because a lot of that package ordering as opposed to shopping in stores also has not gone away.

John Surico: This is such an important part of the formula too, especially as Manhattan sees the advent of congestion pricing, where a lot of companies are going to really have to figure this out if they don't want to pay the $15 toll or whatever it's going to be every day. You've touched upon it.

This is really the world of last mile deliveries, which is this idea of the big truck comes into New York City has all of your goods, but instead of that truck going to every single house and delivering things, they move them onto smaller vehicles to that last mile delivery from the distribution center to your front door. This could be in the form of cargo bikes, which really are e-bike with a haul on it, you see this with boxes behind the e-bike. This can be done on the e-bikes and mopeds we see today.

Brian Lehrer: Are they wide like a pickup truck or something?

John Surico: Yes, they're a bit wider, and there's some regulations there about how wide they can be, but they have a larger haul. This was the justification or reason that the city gave when they recently widened bike lanes on 3rd Avenue and 10th Avenue because there's these wider hauls that would really be able to carry a decent amount of goods.

Brian Lehrer: Acacia in Williamsburg, you're on WNYC. Hello, Acacia.

Acacia: Hi, full disclosure. I am an e-cargo bike rider.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, wow.

Acacia: I have two kids, two and four. We ride our e-cargo bike from Greenpoint to the East Village for school every morning.

Brian Lehrer: You mean your cargo is your children?

Acacia: Yes, my cargo is my children and sometimes our dog. What I don't understand is we have the largest police force, they're on every corner. We have so much money, I mean give or take. We have the laws on the books, why isn't the law, why isn't it being enforced? What are we paying them to do? They're walking down the block, they could see an e-bike with a bad battery and be like "Hey, guy, that battery is bad. I got one in my trunk. Let's switch it out for you." If we have demand power, I don't know why we don't do it. Why are we creating new administrations? I like the delivery thing, but other than that, it baffles my mind.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. I don't know if you can really see a bad lithium-ion battery just by looking at one, but on the other parts, the the Wild West traffic patterns with the micro-mobility vehicles, e-bikes, mopeds, scooters, why do they need a new department? The listener is asking, "Why not just enforce the traffic laws?"

John Surico: That's a great question. This is really the argument that city hall has been making where, just as you explain it with the NYPD, all these responsibilities are being done by a different agency right now. Currently, as it stands, the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection is responsible for labor regulation. This is the most recent minimum wage rule for app-based workers, bathroom access, all these kinds of labor protections that the city has put in place to make sure these delivery workers aren't exploited, but also lithium-ion batteries.

However, when you read in the news about lithium-ion batteries, you're probably hearing about the FDNY handling it, not DCWP. However, if you have a traffic infraction with someone who's on a delivery moped, it's probably the NYPD, even though it's DOT who is responsible for creating the street design. You have all these different entities that are touching this one point, which makes it so complex. The city's argument is that, as a result, we can't really regulate this current industry, because it's being done by a little bit of all these different A, B, C soup of agencies, and this would put it all in one place.

I see in this that the traffic enforcement by the NYPD, and we really see this at the base of the bridges, where they're telling people they can't go over the bridges on a moped, I really think is a symptom of the lack of cohesion that we have around this issue, where NYPD doesn't really know what to do. They're just handing out tickets to what they've seen as an infringement or what they see as not suitable for the streets. I think it's a sign that we don't know how we're really handling this problem as a city.

Brian Lehrer: We should acknowledge that a lot of people might oppose more enforcement because we know who's going to get enforced upon more than other people, and force contact for otherwise law-abiding people with the criminal justice system, and then it's a slippery slope from there. Sometimes I wonder these days about some of the safe streets advocates.

Like in the pre-e-bike era, they were for pedestrian and bike safety versus cars, and that was relatively simple. Now, they seem sometimes to be micro-mobility advocates, even though those vehicles or motor vehicles and pedestrians call the show all the time feeling unsafe from them. Do you ever comment on the politics of this?

John Surico: Brian, you touched upon what I think is one of the most contentious heated debates right now in the transit community where I think it does really divide people. I've had friends argue this over beers at a bar about what to do about the Queensboro Bridge, which is the most crowded bike lane in New York City, I truly believe so. Do you crack down? Do you widen the bike lane? Do you regulate the vehicles? What do you do there? I think this is something that the transit community is really thinking through and try to figure out what's the position there.

What I'll just say to that point is that, I think everyone agrees that the current system is just so fragmented and needs to be improved. I got that sense. When I'm actually talking to cyclists, just like the caller who just called in, I did a story about how crowded the bridges are getting and how crowded bike lanes are getting. I was so surprised talking to cyclists who you would think would be the most cycling-minded and street design-minded, who were all like, "This is a really annoying issue, how much of getting overtaken by mopeds and the bikes, how I feel so unsafe." The rank of all cyclists is talking about this all the time, and that might sound different than what the transit advocates are talking about. I think there is a disconnect there that needs to be figured out.

Brian Lehrer: We will leave it there. We will not solve the streets of New York today, but hopefully, some insight and some good discussion. Thank you, listeners, callers, and texters. Thanks to John Surico, journalist, teacher, and researcher who focuses on issues of mobility, sustainability, and open space. Among other things, he's a regular contributor to Bloomberg CityLab, and an adjunct professor at NYU's Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute, and writes a newsletter called Streetbeat. Thanks a lot, John. Really appreciate the conversation.

John Surico: Thanks so much.

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.