Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we return to the two marquee democratic primaries for Congress taking place in Manhattan and Northwest Brooklyn. Early voting runs through Saturday, primary day itself is next Tuesday. Last-minute endorsements are coming in. Really, if there is a big story in those races this week, I think it's that everyone was anticipating the New York Times endorsements because The Times is very influential in Manhattan and Brownstone, Brooklyn.

The Times endorsement of former federal prosecutor MSNBC commentator and former house impeachment lawyer, Dan Goldman in the 10th district race has drawn such furious blowback that I wonder if this might be the rare New York Times endorsement that does more harm than good for their candidate.

We will talk about that and other developments in these two races now with WNYC and Gothamist Elizabeth Kim, who's covering that 10th district race in lower Manhattan and Northwest Brooklyn. Ben Max, the man with two first names, executive editor of the Gotham Gazette. Ben will focus more for us on the 12th district, that's basically the upper east side and upper west side, which used to be in separate districts.

In that race, longtime members of Congress, Jerrold Nadler and Carolyn Maloney have been forced through the redistricting to run against each other in addition to Suraj Patel, who's arguing that both Maloney and Nadler aren't effective anymore after 30 years in office and it's time for new blood. Good morning, Liz. Good morning, Ben.

Elizabeth Kim: Good morning, Brian. I just want to say one thing, early voting runs through Sunday.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, did I say Saturday?

Elizabeth Kim: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Sorry about that.

Elizabeth Kim: Okay.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for that correction. That's right, there's just a one-day gap between early voting and primary day. Monday is the only day in the coming days that you can't vote except you can mail in your absentee ballot. Hi, Ben.

Ben Max: Hi. Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Liz.

Brian Lehrer: Ben, I'm going to ask you to be patient for a few minutes while we go through some of this New York 10 stuff with Liz first. Let's jump right into this New York times endorsement controversy. There are six major progressive candidates in this race who they could have endorsed and they chose, in a way, the most conservative one, at least in the sense that he's the independently wealthy white male one, an heir to the Levi Strauss fortune, while the other front runners, Carlina Rivera, Mondaire Jones, and Yuh-Line Niou have much closer-to-the-ground stories of lived experience to connect them to their constituents' needs.

Goldman has also found it acceptable to use his wealth to give $2 million to his own campaign recently, leading to charges of no restraint. He's willing to buy the election if he can, say his opponents. Liz, why did the New York Times endorse Dan Goldman?

Elizabeth Kim: Well, if you read their editorial, which you can, and you can also read all of the interviews with the six candidates that the editorial board met with. They make the argument that here is someone who led an impeachment process against then president Donald Trump. That means that he does know people in Washington, DC, in Congress. They are very impressed with his record as a prosecutor, as a public servant. They think that he will bring that kind of toughness and investigative acumen to the job of being a Congressman. I think a lot of this boils down to what they want to see in a Congressman for this district.

Brian Lehrer: You reported that many political observers found the Goldman endorsement surprising. Why is that?

Elizabeth Kim: Well, it's all of those things that you ticked off at the top. For one thing, the optics of it, this was not the only race in which they picked a candidate. There were two other congressional races in which they also endorsed candidates. That was Jerrold Nadler, who's the Congressman from the upper west side. In the Hudson Valley, they picked Sean Patrick Mahoney. Those are also two white men. Then you have a slate of three white men, and that was something that stood out to people immediately.

I think even before people really dug into reading each of these editorials, it was really stark and that bothered a lot of people. Then, as you say, it also boils down to his story versus the story of the other candidates in the 10th.

I would say one thing that it's not just that he is a wealthy individual. It's also he's never held elected office before whereas you have other candidates in this race. There are three women who are in elected office who represent portions of this district. I think that also raised some eyebrows and it also bothered people that the editorial did not even make mention of these other candidates.

I'm thinking of someone like assemblywoman Yuh-Line Niou, city council member, Carlina Rivera, state assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon. I think with Niou and Rivera, it was a little bit more the omission to some people felt more insulting because those are two candidates that have been talked about as front runners and that polls have suggested that they are certainly in play to win this race.

Brian Lehrer: They did at least give a nod in the editorial to one of the other major competitors, Mondaire Jones, current Congressman from Rockland and parts of Westchester who's now running in this district, who a couple of years ago became one of the first two gay African Americans ever to be elected to Congress along with Ritchie Torres from the Bronx who, by the way, is going to be on tomorrow's show. They at least gave a nod to him, but you're right, they didn't even mention Carlina Rivera or Yuh-Line Niou or Jo Anne Simon all considered to be serious candidates.

Listeners, with early voting underway through Sunday, not Saturday, what remaining questions do you have about the candidates in these two marquee democratic congressional primaries? Undecided voters in the 10th or the 12th, you will get first priority on the phones. Maybe Liz Kim and Ben Max can help you make up your mind.

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet at @BrianLehrer. Liz, before we talk about some of the other candidates and the endorsements that they have gotten and bring Ben into it and talk about the Maloney, Patel, Nadler race as well, Democrats in the race who are running against Goldman say he's the most conservative in a number of ways on the issues, nevermind his money or his lived experience.

One of those ways that you report on, on Gothamist today, that adds to their shock that Goldman got The Times nod is remarks he made about abortion rights to a conservative Jewish media outlet. What did he say about that?

Elizabeth Kim: Basically, he was asked during an interview with Hamodia, whether he would support a ban on essentially a late-stage abortion. What happened was, he said, initially, "Yes." I'm probably paraphrasing. He said, "Yes, I think I would consider something like that." Then the transcript of the interview which was published by Hamodia indicates that there was a brief aside with an aid. Then he came back and then he changed his answer.

That was immediately seized upon by his rivals as flip-flopping, maybe if not flip-flopping, then maybe he's this is a guy who doesn't seem sure about protecting women's rights. Immediately afterwards, his campaign issued a statement saying that he unequivocally supports a woman's right to choose and that he was perhaps talking more personally like understanding maybe some of the concerns maybe of people who might want that kind of restriction in place. That he personally he would never as an elected official. He would do everything to expand a woman's right to choose.

The damage was already done, and the rivals quickly picked up on that. It's been mentioned during debates. I think it's also made an imprint on voters' minds too. When I was out this week talking to some early voters, there was one early voter who mentioned that incident to me. She wasn't exactly sure. She said I think perhaps the sound bite was taken out of context. At the same time, it raised doubts in her mind. She said, "What it did was it made me want to vote not for him."

Brian Lehrer: I want to mention one other thing that I noticed in the WNYC, New York 1 debate among these candidates. That is Goldman seemed to take the most skeptical view of New York state's bail reform law. In fact, The Times endorsement says Goldman's  law enforcement experience offers a valuable perspective at a time when New Yorkers are concerned about public safety.

This is not to support or oppose him, I'm just noticing a difference. Maybe that's a popular position in the district, that's up to the voters, but is it more conservative than his rivals? Do you know if he set out to be the Eric Adams Democrat in this race, in this respect?

Elizabeth Kim: Well, in that debate in which he was asked about bail reform, and that was the debate that was hosted by WNYC in New York 1, he certainly sounded more of a centrist. His answer to that very much reminded me of Eric Adams who talks about this issue a lot, and he's talking about it in terms of recidivism. These are so-called repeat offenders.

I think the line was like we can't have people seven, eight times in and out of the criminal justice system committing crimes. In contrast to that, you have a candidate like Jones and Niou who are asked the same question and their answer to the question of what is the best way for the city to tackle crime is their answer is basically invest. We need to invest in social programs that helps lift people out of poverty.

Brian Lehrer: There is a little policy difference there. Also in criminal justice, maybe this is just a tiny little footnote and maybe it's meaningless, but when they asked in the debate if the candidates supported federal legalization of marijuana, all the candidates said yes including Goldman, but Goldman added a few extra words. He said, "Yes, so they can regulate it." Do you know if that means anything? Was he signaling he supports keeping a wary eye on legal cannabis in a way the others are not running on? Did you notice that?

Elizabeth Kim: No, I didn't notice that, but it doesn't surprise me. Again, he has the background, he was a federal prosecutor. I think he comes at a lot of these issues with a different perspective from a more law and order perspective.

Brian Lehrer: Ben Max, executive editor of Gotham Gazette, you want a grandstand here? Were you surprised that the New York Times endorsed Dan Goldman in this field?

Ben Max: I would never turn down an opportunity to grandstand, Brian. I was surprised. I definitely thought it would either be Mondaire Jones or Carlina Rivera. I definitely didn't rule out Dan Goldman because of the national moment and his experience as a federal prosecutor, and even more importantly, obviously, in the first Trump impeachment, the New York Times editorial board is clearly very focused on the threats to democracy and Trump's big lie, and what many Republicans seem to be preparing to do in future elections.

Dan Goldman's whole campaign is obviously very focused on his work impeaching Trump and his preparation for what Trump and Trump Republicans may be trying to do coming up. I didn't see that as an impossible feat, but I was surprised that they didn't go with either Mondaire Jones, who they supported, obviously, two years ago, but would be something of a stretch given he's barely lived in this new district, or Carlina Rivera whose politics line up locally quite a bit with The Times editorial board.

Again, there's a really interesting bifurcation here in terms of local service and local issues versus the national moment. That's obviously where, at least in part, the decision came down for Goldman. There's also obviously been a bunch of this blowback has focused on questions around whether this is someone of the wealthy elite with connections getting the endorsement from on high at The Times editorial board and not necessarily from the rank and file on the board, but that's been mostly a lot of speculation at this point.

Brian Lehrer: Couple of tweets coming in. One in support of Goldman says, The Kennedy's had--" Now I'm paraphrasing because it's already disappeared from my screen, but it says, "The Kennedy's had a lot of money and therefore they were immune from bribery and very empathetic and good leaders." There's that. Someone else is asking, Ben, to what you just brought up, someone says, "How could you not mention the incestuous relationship between the Sulzberger and Goldman families?"

That is the Sulzberger family that owns the New York Times. I know some people have brought that up. I'm not sure that there's a there there. Certainly, they have denied having any fingerprints on what their editorial board decides to do in any endorsement. You know anything about that?

Ben Max: No. Like I said, mostly what I've seen is speculation at this point. I have seen people doing some commentary on Twitter and even some articles that make some of the connections around the families and Goldman's background, as I said, in this wealthy elite space and with some direct connections. The way these newspaper editorial board endorsements work can be very tricky.

Sometimes the editorial board is left alone, sometimes they are not left alone. Without real deep reporting on this, it's not something I want to speculate on. I think there's a lot of ways that, like I was saying, originally the Goldman endorsement makes sense for The Times editorial board, and for obviously many readers at The Times, and especially in this 10th district, the people that are paying the closest attention to The Times editorial board endorsement.

There's certainly questions around the end decision, especially as Liz was getting at earlier, with the fact that you have several sitting elected officials who represent parts of this district, including a couple of progressive women of color. The Times has been obviously focused on lifting up diversity. The question of younger people coming into politics and getting a chance to ascend.

There's a lot of different factors that go into this. Then lastly, but if you read the transcripts of the interviews, on a number of things, Goldman seems to have done well in responding to the questions from The Times editorial board.

I think there are questions about, for example, assembly member Niou, council member Rivera, and getting ready to step up from some of more the local issues to the federal issues and their preparation for talking about entering Congress. Again, I think there's many people who would favor the local work they've done, the connections they have in their districts, and so forth.

Brian Lehrer: As we talk about these two marquee primaries for Congress on the Democratic side in Manhattan and Northwest Brooklyn, the 10th congressional district which we've been talking about so far, and the 12th congressional district on the upper east side and upper west side, Carolyn Maloney, Jerrold Nadler, Suraj Patel, which we will get to with Ben Max, executive editor of Gotham Gazette, and our Liz Kim from WNYC and Gothamist.

Richard in the East Village is an undecided voter in the 10th. Richard, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Richard: Oh, wow. Hello. Great to be on. I think the shocking thing about The  Times endorsement was the visual. When you turned the page and saw the three white men at the top, really, that was what I think was shocking. I didn't even read it, honestly.

Brian Lehrer: With Jerrold Nadler and Sean Patrick Maloney, both of whom also have women and in the 12th district case, a person of color running as well as candidates.

Richard: I did a little supportive work for [unintelligible 00:18:04] campaign. I think she's fantastic. I did vote for Patel last time around when I was in his district. It was interesting to hear about the Stephen Ross's money going to Nadler the big Hudson yard developer, Trump supporter. Apparently, [unintelligible 00:18:22] [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Now you're undecided in the 10th.

Richard: Yes. Yuh-Line and Mondaire. I was halfway through your WNYC debate last night, I had to finish it still and I was really leaning Yuh-Line because I'm in Rivera's district, I know her and I wasn't going to vote for her. Mondaire was really strong in the debate. He's not enlisted in the front runner. I'm very much going back and forth between the local solid person leads with empathy, it feels like she really would listen to people and take that with her in her job.

Brian Lehrer: Richard, thank thank you very much. Good luck making up your mind. Here's another undecided voter in the 10th district, Mark, who's calling today from Ponce, Puerto Rico, but votes in the district. Hey, Mark. Thanks for calling.

Mark: Hi, Brian. Thanks for picking up. Like the previous caller, Carlina Rivera is one of our local politicians, so I'm definitely not going to vote for her. Part of it was the debate and her five-minute pitch on your show this week where she gave this full-throated defense of the East River plan standing on the fact that it's been two years. There was a community supported plan we all thought was going to happen for two years and she suddenly switched with a pro developer plan and dug up the NYCHA Community Board as some sort of  representation of community support.

I really want to vote for Yuh-Line Niou, but I was actually quite impressed with Simon and Holtzman during the debate. I thought they had a logic, a lot of cogent dancers, and I thought Simon was the most consistently progressive, but then you just mentioned their responses to crime and you really did have a good response. I just feel this close to election day, I've got my absentee ballot. I'm actually going to be in the district tomorrow. If I can early vote, I will, but I'm still undecided. I've got a plane trip and I just need to do some more research. There something about Yuh-Line Niou that makes her better as a US representative.

Brian Lehrer: Well, that of course is for everybody to decide for themselves. One thing that we can do is run down some of the endorsements since we've talked about the New York Times endorsement of Goldman, and the reasons for them he's the best candidate, and the reasons that it's a controversial endorsement for some other people.

Liz, assembly member Yuh-Line Niou has the major progressive endorsements, Working Families Party, the Climate Activist Group, the Sunrise Movement, New York Communities for Change, public advocate Jumaane Williams, actor and former gubernatorial candidate Cynthia Nixon, plus a number of Asian American organizations. She's the first Asian American woman in the state legislature, and the first Asian American to represent Chinatown in the state legislature.

Is Yuh-Line Niou, with that progressive coalition, running to the left of the field on issues.

Elizabeth Kim: I think that you would say, by and large, most of these candidates do not disagree sharply on major issues. It's all looking at them by gradations. I think that just in looking at the list of groups and individuals that have endorsed Yuh-Line beginning with the Working Families Party, which was seen as a very pivotal endorsement in this race, because that party has deep roots in Brooklyn, the expectation is that most of the voters will be coming from Brooklyn that she does have the bona fides of a progressive and she cemented her standing as the progressive candidate in the race, especially after Jumaane Williams came out and endorsed her.

Brian Lehrer: Carlina Rivera. Is the closing of East River Park parts of it for a few years and the taking down of all those trees as part of that resiliency plan, this is a post-Sandy resiliency plan. Frankly, my prediction was that The Times was going to endorse her partly because she's a woman of color who represents the district, partly because I thought they might see her as taking a tough vote on East River Park in defiance of some community opposition, but also some community support of something that was going to be, not a beautiful experience for the community one way or another for the next few years while they do this renovation, but of course, Times didn't go that way.

Do you see the blowback that does exist as being a major factor for, or against her in this race?

Elizabeth Kim: Certainly. You just had two callers who either currently live or have lived in her district, and they just said that they're not voting for her. I think during the debate, she was asked about that, and her answer, which I think many people gave her credit for was that you have to make some difficult decisions as an elected official, and you have to be able to face that blowback from the community because you're looking more towards the future.

She said this was a plan that was in the making for 10 years. She was pretty sharp with her criticism at her rivals who wanted to attack her for it. She said, "Where were you?" She was the one who was at the hearings and taking the criticism from the community, but also listening to experts. I think what's a very interesting experiment, which I accidentally did, was I went and I looked at the interview with Goldman and I looked at The Times, I'm talking about The Times endorsement interviews. You look at the one with Rivera, she really positions herself as this very pragmatic, progressive.

When she's asked, "What do you want to do in Congress?" She says, "I need to join the best committee so I can have an impact for my district." That's not the answer that Goldman gives. Goldman gives an answer like, "I'm going to Congress so I could fight Donald Trump and the right-wing Republicans." I think, to look at that, a lot of it is about what do you want your Congress person to do for you?

Brian Lehrer: On endorsements, Rivera has the Manhattan Borough, president, Mark Levine, Congress members, Adriano Espaillat and Nydia Velázquez, plus city council speaker, Adrian Adams, and many other city council colleagues. She's got the big Healthcare Workers Union, 1199, plus the TWU, the Boston Subway Workers, and some of the arts as well, the Musicians Union, Local 802, and Broadway Stagehands and Theatrical Teamsters local. That's a swath of supporters for Carlina Rivera.

Mondaire Jones, the current Congressman from Rockland and parts of Westchester, his own area, again, got redistricted in a way he probably couldn't have won a primary in because Sean Patrick Maloney is such a big, well-funded fish. Now, he moved down to the 10th. The Times chose him second place after Goldman. Also he's got house speaker, Nancy Pelosi, and the Congressional Progressive Caucus pack. He's got the major LGBT organization, the human rights campaign. That's a little bit of the Mondaire Jones coalition.

Now, we better get to the 12th congressional district before we run out of time. Ben Max, let me jump to that with you. The upper east side, upper west side combined. The west side lion of Congress, Jerrold Nadler, and the east side lion of Congress, Carolyn Maloney got pitted against each other and there's Suraj Patel running on the argument that it's time for new blood as Nadler and Maloney aren't effective anymore, he charges. For people who don't know him yet, who is Suraj Patel?

Ben Max: He's an attorney. He's worked in his family's hospitality business, and he's now a three-time candidate for Congress in New York 12. Of course, the prior two times were in the current district lines against Carol Maloney where the district was a lot of the east side of Manhattan, Roosevelt island and portions of Queens and Brooklyn. Now, it's a very different district as you noted, but he is now in his late 30s and he's been running throughout his 30s here for Congress on a variety of different platforms, but now we're very focused on ideas and solutions for the future.

Again, a pragmatic progressivism and the notion that we need a lot more growth and forward-looking planning and ideas and creativity from a Congress member.

Brian Lehrer: One of the quotes that I think is representative that I saw from Patel is "1990s politicians have lost every major battle to Mitch McConnell from climate action to guns and abortion. To win our country back, we need new messengers to make a new case for our values. Is that just ageism or does he have a new case as he calls it for the values that he and Nadler and Maloney all apparently share? Is there an actual new case or just a new person?

Ben Max: Well, I would say there are some challenges to making that argument in part because just, even as he's trying to make that argument, you see Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden among others who have been around quite some time and would be considered 1990's Democrats by many, if not earlier, getting quite a bit done in a very difficult situation for Democrats in Washington, even though they obviously have slim majorities in both houses of Congress.

There's some real challenges with that argument for him. The idea that he's really trying to put forward is that it is time for someone with a new thinking, someone who's has lived experiences for the challenges that many younger people are facing today, young families, people who were like these Congress members when they were first running for office and making their pitches to let a new leadership shine.

Again, Jerry Nadler and Carolyn Maloney have a lot that they're running on from their seniority and their experience. The question, I think, for a lot of voters is, do you think it's time for some of these long-time leaders who've been in Congress since 1992 to allow for a newer generation to come in and take the helm, especially as these major challenges are facing the democratic party facing the country. I think he has some creative ideas on things like the economy and housing and so forth. I don't know that a lot of voters will see him as necessarily a better fighter on things like democracy issues, than someone like Jerry Nadler, who was chair of the Judiciary Committee.

Brian Lehrer: Patel argues that Nadler and Maloney are making ageist claims against him, isn't he?

Ben Max: Yes, he's tried to spin that around on them by them talking about him being inexperienced. One of the most interesting questions, I think, in this race is the question that Carolyn Maloney has most pointedly asked Suraj Patel, which is, "What have you done for this district?" He's run for congress three times now, but there's not a lot of evidence that in and around those races, he's necessarily been that involved in community issues.

Maybe he has on things that I'm not aware of, but I haven't seen any of it. Obviously, he's been working. This is someone who's been working in between these runs for Congress, but that is a very interesting response. At the same time, as I said, there are arguments to be made, of course, for fresh blood new thinking. There's a reason that a lot of people like term limits, for example, which we obviously don't have for members of Congress.

Brian Lehrer: How are Nadler and Maloney, longtime allies in Congress, of course, from the New York City delegation running against each other?

Ben Max: Carolyn Maloney is, in many ways, struggling to make the argument with Jerrold Nadler, which is the same thing Suraj Patel has struggled with. If we hear him, I've asked him on my podcast about this, and he can make this extensive argument against Maloney, and he doesn't have that much to say against Nadler, except that Nadler endorsed Maloney when he thought they were running in different districts earlier.

Carolyn Maloney has pointed out that she's delivered a lot for her district. She said that Jerry Nadler has this top priority of a freight rail tunnel that he hasn't gotten built. She's talked a lot about the need for a strong, experienced woman in this moment to stay at the higher levels of Congress and the Democratic caucus, especially after the overturning of Roe.

Jerrold Nadler has pointed out very pointedly that Carolyn Maloney voted for the Iraq war, for the Patriot Act, and against the Iran nuclear deal, some of those she's expressed regret for, and then, of course, Suraj Patel and Nadler are both attacking Maloney about her past skepticism about the childhood vaccines.

Brian Lehrer: We're just about out of time, but I promised the listeners an endorsement review in these races, so here we go on this one. Nadler has Chuck Schumer, Elizabeth Warren, the Working Families Party, 1199, the Human Rights Campaign, and controller Brad Lander, in addition to the New York Times endorsement, that's a lot.

Maloney has the pro-choice Emily's list, a number of unions, including firefighters and postal workers, also AIPAC, which supports pro-Israel candidates, and she has more local democratic clubs than Nadler, from what I've read. I don't see any notable endorsements for Suraj Patel. Am I missing them?

Ben Max: I don't think there's anything particularly notable. People were, in part, chuckling a little bit that he rolled out an endorsement from Andrew Yang, who obviously had a flame out in his mayoral campaign and then left the Democratic Party. That was one that he highlighted, but with these two longtime members of Congress, Patel has really struggled to garner notable endorsements.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, do you want to get a last word and grandstand on New York 12, which mostly Ben has been reporting for us? The one question I have, in the back of my mind is, has there been backlash to The Times endorsement of Nadler like there was to the Dan Goldman peak that we were reporting on earlier in the segment?

Elizabeth Kim: I haven't heard that. In fact, when I immediately reached out to talk to political observers was that, that was actually expected, they expected The Times would endorse Nadler. Same with Sean Patrick Maloney, that did not come as too much of a surprise. Everyone pretty much immediately honed in on the Goldman one as being surprising. As we've already mentioned, taken together, the optics of the three of them being white men, was startling to some.

Brian Lehrer: Elizabeth Kim, always great reporting on Gothamist, as well as on the air here on WNYC. Ben Max, great job always as executive editor of Gotham Gazette. Liz, Ben, thanks so much.

Elizabeth Kim: Thanks, Brian.

Ben Max: Thanks, Brian.

 

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