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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Mike Pence in as of yesterday. He filed the necessary paperwork. Chris Christie in as of today. He is said to announce in New Hampshire say multiple reports. Classified documents indictment against Donald Trump. Some knowledgeable people in Washington are predicting that we'll be in by the end of this week. Nikki Haley in for the culture war against trans people in her CNN Town Hall last week.

Nikki Haley: "How are we supposed to get our girls used to the fact that biological boys are in their locker rooms, and then we wonder why a third of our teenage girls seriously contemplated suicide last year. We should be growing strong girls, confident girls."

Brian Lehrer: That's why girls are considering suicide, and respecting people's preferred pronoun, she apparently thinks it could make us lose a war.

Nikki Haley: "We have gender pronoun classes in the military now."

Brian Lehrer: Imagine that, the US military respecting its recruits. What's this country coming to? Nikki Haley in her CNN Town Hall. In at CNN, their chief political correspondent and co-anchor of the influential Sunday morning talk show State of the Union has now been named host of the weekday show Inside Politics, which airs at noon Eastern time on Monday through Friday. That's Dana Bash, and she joins us now. Dana, thanks for coming on. Congratulations on your new role and welcome to WNYC.

Dana Bash: Thank you so much. It is such an honor to be on with you. It really is.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Dana. Thank you very much and ditto. I will ask you about hosting Inside Politics in a bit, but let's talk some politics first. The Republican presidential field is getting very big despite Trump's dominance in the polls among likely primary voters. I see you'll be hosting a Mike Pence Town Hall tomorrow night. Why are so many prominent people willing to roll the dice knowing they'll probably lose?

Dana Bash: There are various answers depending on who you're talking about. I think for the most part, it isn't fair to say people are running just for a vanity project, or to be vice president, or to sit on more boards, or, or, or. It's hard to imagine people getting into a process like this without somewhere in their mind being absolutely confident that they can win the nomination, and they can be President of the United States. That's the generous answer to your question. Of course, there are lots and lots and lots of factors that go in besides the ultimate question that somebody has to ask themselves, look in the mirror, which is can I be President, should I be President?

The reality is that you have various people in the field at various stages in their political careers who are doing it for different reasons. Let's just start with Chris Christie, who's going to announce tonight. He is somebody who passed up the chance in 2012 when everybody in the establishment world, the donor world, they were begging him to get in and he said, "No, I'm not ready. It's not my time." He did run in 2016. It was not his time then mostly because of Bridgegate, and it really, really hurt him. It was hard for him to raise money and hard for him to get traction, even separate from the Donald Trump of it all. Now he has been out of public office for several years, he's been making some money, his kids are out of the house, and he feels more confident, and more sure of the fact that this is a time for him to run.

Yes, he thinks he would be a good President. He's a competent, talented person, but he also knows that of anybody else in the field, he knows Donald Trump so well. He knows what makes him tick, he knows what makes him upset, he knows how to get at him and get to him, and that is the big reason he is running. I find that absolutely fascinating because I don't remember a time in political history where somebody is leaning into a run for the presidency with the number one goal of taking out another one of their competitors.

Brian Lehrer: I guess if that really is his number one goal, I can't think of another instance either, but a reporter--

Dana Bash: Maybe we should say his number one goal is to be a President. That's one aim.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. That's fair enough. Our reporter Matt Katz who wrote a book about Chris Christie a few years ago was on Morning Edition today, national Morning Edition saying, "Look what Christie achieved in defeat after running in 2016, a paid commentator gig with a big national profile on your competing Sunday morning talk show ABC This Week and a higher price he could charge for speaking engagements, so it could be a business decision for him and for many of them." Agree?

Dana Bash: It will be. It absolutely will be. Only one of them can be the nominee, and everybody else, depending on how it goes, we'll have a higher name ID, and everybody else will have the reps and the experience before crowds on a debate stage. That will be the effect whether it is the goal from the outset, which let's just be, again, generous is not for most of them. It absolutely will be a benefit to most of them unless they do something absolutely outrageous, but in today's environment, that just probably will get them more money.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. You can win by losing, I guess, in that context. I think it's fair to say Mike Pence and Chris Christie, neither of them will be Trump's running mate if Trump is the nominee, that's for certain. You can't hang Mike Pence and marry him again at the same time, and as you just said, Christie is going to be running on take down Donald Trump platform. Maybe Nikki Haley is interested in that. We played those clips of her at her CNN Town Hall leaning into this culture war theme that accepting trans people for who they are will be the downfall of the country. Are candidates who present nicer in a certain way, like Haley and Tim Scott, basically no different from say, Ron DeSantis, on these kinds of issues?

Dana Bash: On the culture issues?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Trans especially.

Dana Bash: They're certainly not presenting much different from them on the issues like trans. It really does speak to one of the things that I'm most fascinated by in looking at how the race is shaping up, which is the Republican Party for the most part that I started out covering in my political journalistic life was the party of get government-- there were some big, glaring exceptions to this like abortion, but for the most part, get government out of your life, low taxes, small government, all those things. Now what you see is there are some of those people running. Asa Hutchinson is one of them. Not that many, but the more prominent philosophy among most of the candidates, Ron DeSantis is the most successful so far, is using government to impose social ideals, and the trans issue was one of them. Of course, everything that happened with Disney, books.

It is really interesting to see the party turn on its head when it comes to how to use government, when to use government and when not to use government. As we were getting ready for this contest, I was thinking this is going to be a big debate, but now I'm thinking I don't know how much of a debate it is going to be because, I don't know, can you think of, besides Asa Hutchinson, who am I missing? I guess, Chris Christie, but most of the leading candidates or the loudest candidates are use government Republicans.

Brian Lehrer: Well, here's my question for you and answer to your question. It's a question back to you. Is Trump hedging his bets a little now on respecting trans people and abortion rights playing it a little more moderate, as some people have commented on, or is that an illusion?

Dana Bash: Well, let's just be clear, it's hard to answer that when it's Donald Trump because he's just very, very transactional. There are some things that he fundamentally believes in, and he's believed in his whole life like he doesn't like trade agreements, and he's okay with debt. There are some things that he just has been consistent on, but most of the hot button issues, he's fine to change it. The most prominent example of that is the fact that he was loudly and proudly pro-choice until, I don't know, 2016. I think the jury's still out, but it does look, right now, it's a snapshot in time. You are right. He's playing for the general. He's got his core base and the people who are going to vote on abortion might not vote for him anyway. Maybe start thinking about the general as opposed to the short term. If he starts dropping in the polls, Brian, I can see him changing that strategy quickly. Can't you?

Brian Lehrer: Definitely. Definitely. At the moment, he's looking at the popularity of abortion rights around the country and in swing states, in particular-

Dana Bash: Definitely.

Brian Lehrer: -you're right, he could turn on a dime after the primaries depending on how he sees the landscape. As in fairness, a lot of politicians turn after the primary.

Dana Bash: Exactly. Tha'ts a very political thing to do. [chukles]

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Let me go down this road one more step with you and maybe you can't possibly answer this question. As a chief political correspondent for CNN, with all your experience speaking to so many people from so many places in America, why are these attacks on trans people so popular in what might be shockingly large parts of the electorate? I know you know Bud Light sales reportedly went down by 30% just because they used a trans influencer as one of their many ads and there was a backlash to that.

I know this is a big question, but do we have that much hate in our hearts for difference as a country?

Dana Bash: I think I would use a different word to answer that, and that's fear. It's fear. People are scared. Society is changing rapidly, and acceptance in a lot of this country of trans people, of gay people is real. People are admitting that they have family members that they didn't discuss just, I don't know, even a decade ago, and it's totally socially acceptable to do so. Not even acceptable, but it's expected to acknowledge people in your life. I think it's fear. [crosstalk] Go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Fear of what? Fear of having people in your life, maybe your kids as they grow up, acknowledge that they are something that disgust you? You know what I mean?

Dana Bash: Sure. Are there people out there like that? Absolutely. I think for the most part, it's just fear of change. It's fear of rapid change. The world not looking the way it looked when you were growing up. The world not looking the way you think it should look. When I say looking, I don't mean actually trans people, but I mean just the feel of society, of culture.

Then it is when you dig even deeper when you look at the discussions about your kids and about schools, that's the easiest way to get people riled up for these politicians because depending on where you live, there is a big discussion and acceptance of these ideals and these changes in schools. There are parents who are saying, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, why are you doing this in school?" "Okay, let me talk about it."

Go back to Virginia, to Glenn Youngkin, and yes, Glenn Youngkin won against Terry McAuliffe mostly because it was COVID, and he was voting, excuse me, running against the schools and the government in Virginia imposing restrictions about COVID, but it was a lot more than that. Remember, it was CRT and all these things, and I think it all boils down to fear of the unknown, fear of change. I think that is a big reason why Donald Trump became President because he stoked those fears.

Back then, it wasn't about trans and CRT and books, it was about-- Well, what did he say when he came down that escalator? It was about immigration. That was a time when Republicans was desperate to move on from that kind of talk. Desperately, they had just done that whole autopsy on what happened in 2012 and made a decision that they were going to be more inclusive and embrace immigrants, and need to do immigration reforms so they could move on from that vitriolic talk, and then came Donald Trump, and took them in a completely different direction.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, he ran on Mexicans being criminals, and a total Muslim immigration ban or even visitation ban originally. That won him the nomination.

Dana Bash: Now, look what he's doing now. I'm sorry. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I'm just saying, yes, anti-trans is the latest version of that playing to some of those same threads in people's hearts or fears. What were you going to say, Dana?

Dana Bash: I was just going to say he's doubling down on that. He's even saying birthright, maybe even birthright citizenship should be revoked because he wants to go even further on the idea that undocumented immigrants come to America, they have babies, and they're illegal citizens. Go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, Republican primary voters, do you have a candidate yet? Any thoughts on the Trump and classified documents developments which we're going to get to in a minute, or anyone else with a comment or a question for CNN's Dana Bash, chief political correspondent, State of the Union co-anchor on Sunday mornings, and now, host of Inside Politics, weekdays at noon Eastern as we talk Tuesday morning politics here. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Call us or text us, and we'll continue with Dana Bash right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we continue with CNN's Dana Bash, chief political correspondent, State of the Union co-anchor on Sunday mornings, and now, host of Inside Politics, weekdays at noon Eastern as we talk Tuesday morning politics here, and with you at 212-433-WNYC. Dana, you're not busy enough being chief political correspondent and co-anchor with Jake Tapper on State of the Union on Sundays now Inside Politics, weekdays at noon, what's exciting to you about your new gig?

Dana Bash: Part of my contract is that they promised they would add more hours in the day. Do you think that's going to happen? [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: I think they're doing that with me, too.

Dana Bash: [laughs] Yes, I'm sure. What's exciting about it is that when I started at CNN, this is my 30th year, it's actually-- My anniversary is at the end of this month. Inside Politics was just getting started, the brand, the show. It was Bernard Shaw, it was Judy Woodruff, and it was must-see TV for anybody interested in politics, and that's a lot of people. John King brought the brand back about a decade ago.

The show is a little bit different but it is still the brand and is still the idea of it being a place to come if you want to know what's really going on in politics, and to be a person who grabs that baton, and to be able to sit in that chair and have a platform to draw on my experience, all of my experience in covering campaigns and covering the White House and covering Capitol Hill.

Also draw on not just my reporting, current reporting, but the reporting of my colleagues who are so, so, so good, and get to the latest nuggets, get the latest reporting out to our audience and context about why it matters, which is what you do every day is so important. I'm really excited.

Brian Lehrer: There's a fair amount of churn in cable news and Sunday morning talk right now. Chuck Todd is out as host of Meet the Press on NBC. Kristen Welker is in. You're taking over from John King and Inside Politics. Don Lemon, Chris Cuomo, Tucker Carlson. Rachel Maddow cut back her anchoring to once a week. How do you see the greater landscape, especially as fewer people are watching cable at all?

Dana Bash: It is changing. Look, I mentioned Inside Politics when I started at CNN. It was just us. There was no Fox News. There was no MSNBC. Then we got competition. Everything is in a constant state of change. For our industry, it seems to have been accelerated recently for all the reasons that you just mentioned. I think that what has gotten me up in the morning every day and what gets me excited is just focusing on what's in front of me and doing the job.

The fact that I can do that with this platform, and just have fun with it, of course, politics is consequential. Of course, it matters. Of course, at some points, it's sober and solemn and all those things, but it's also fun. That's the way to get people to pay attention and realize that it's something that isn't just-- I think that's actually what I'm getting to, which is my goal that, yes, there's a lot of vitriol out there, but there is also a lot that's not. Part of my goal is, Brian, to highlight the fact that on Capitol Hill, even though everybody seems to be screaming at each other, there's so many Democrats and Republicans who are friends, who get things done under the radar, because they don't want the extremes in both of their parties to find out and then the thing gets killed. There's a lot happening beneath the surface that I want to be able to highlight.

Brian Lehrer: Antonio, in Bayside, you're on WNYC, with Dana Bash from CNN. Hi, Antonio.

Antonio: Hey, Brian. How are you? Good morning. My question was posted on the screen here is how would the Republican hopefuls intend to win after the primaries when they're so just speaking to their base, but in a very extreme way? You have to win Independents and Democrats to win because you're not going to be the president of Suffolk County, you're going to be the President of the United States.

Brian Lehrer: Antonio, thank you. Dana, it's a perennial question, right? Playing to the base versus playing to the swing voters in a general election.

Dana Bash: It really is, and it's true for the Republicans this year because they're the ones with the active primary. It was true also last cycle with the Bernie Sanders versus Joe Biden, and even more so in 2016 on the Democratic side. The answer is, it's the candidate who threads that needle better who becomes President of the United States. Not to sound corny, but the President is supposed to be President for the entire United States, not just their party or the people who vote for them. To be able to get that message out to make that clear, is what gets you into the White House.

Having said that, the last couple of election cycles have been incredibly close. What was the last time we actually had a landslide? '96 wasn't a landslide, but it was very determinative. Then, of course, you go back to the famous Michael Dukakis. This is a divided country, and the way that the process works to win, we have a two-party system for better or worse right now. It's your party activists who make you the nominee. Being able to walk that line is the challenge in order to become President.

Brian Lehrer: Whoever gets this nomination will presumably have to run against Joe Biden. I want to replay a clip of Biden that we used yesterday from his Friday night debt ceiling agreement speech suggesting that it came out relatively okay because of his presidential governing style. Here's the President.

President Biden: "When I ran for President, I was told the days of bipartisanship were over. The Democrats, Republicans can no longer work together. I refused to believe that, because America can never give in to that way of thinking."

Brian Lehrer: That was a very gracious way to put it, but also a very politically strategic way to put it. Kevin McCarthy at the same time was not speaking in those gracious terms. He was basically saying we forced that recalcitrant Biden into a compromise. How do you see that kind of language we just heard serving Biden politically, even as he alienates progressive members of his own party? Most of the New York City delegation you know voted no.

Dana Bash: Yes, they did. The Biden team believes based on whatever research they're doing focus groups, polling, whatever, that that kind of language is maybe the most important. You remember, pre-midterms, he kept talking about the MAGA Republicans and everybody was up in arms about how he was denigrating regular Republicans, for lack of a better way to say it, in his big speech about democracy. What they say inside the White House is that that actually helped. Certainly helped that it dovetailed on the abortion decision rather.

They have come to believe that that kind of language, trying to separate for voters out the extremism that Antonio was referring to and just want to live my life and make sure that I've competent government, and maybe the Democrat is somebody I should look to vote for. That that is a choice that they believe works for them.

Brian Lehrer: Donald in Jersey City, you're on WNYC with Dana Bash. Hi, Donald.

Donald: Oh, hi, Brian and hello, Dana Bash.

Dana Bash: Hi, Donald.

Donald: My question is broadly philosophical in a sense is that how can any big media cover the upcoming elections with the possibility that either Trump or DeSantis will be candidates, and so much of their agendas are anti-democrats? In other words, how to pursue covering these candidates when so much of their agenda would be destructive of what we know about the American democracy up till now?

Brian Lehrer: Dana, go ahead, tough question.

Dana Bash: Yes, it is a tough question. I think the answer to that is to remember that we in the media are a crucial part of that democratic system and to continue to ask tough questions, to put things in context, to challenge things that are not true, and do the best we can at that. That's really all we can do. Look, the person who is the nominee for the Republican or Democratic Party is going to be somebody elected by a lot of Americans, whether Democrats or Republicans. That is part of the democratic process. That is something that we have to respect as journalists and then to cover the news and cover the race as it goes based on what the voters want.

Brian Lehrer: One piece of news this week, Trump's lawyers meeting with special counsel Jack Smith, apparently in a last-ditch effort to stave off an indictment on the classified documents case, and new evidence of Trump on tape possibly flaunting some kind of classified document on US military readiness regarding Iran. I'm going to play a clip of you from this past Sunday interviewing very conservative Republican Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado on this topic.

Dana Bash: "I want to turn to a different topic, and that is CNN reporting that federal prosecutors obtained an audio recording of former President Trump talking about holding on to a classified document about a potential US attack on Iran, that was after he left office. You're an elected official, you know that it is illegal to take classified documents. The tape appears to show that he knew he had those documents. Do you find what President Trump did the former president irresponsible?"

Ken: "As a former prosecutor for 25 years, I think it goes beyond just irresponsible. I don't know if anybody has located the document, or there's a copy of the document somewhere that can show just what kind of information and classification that that document had. I don't know if anybody saw the document. I know that he was waving some paper, but I don't know anybody saw a document with a stamp on it. It wouldn't be the first time that President Trump has talked about things, and he may have been illustrating something. It depends on what the testimony is as to how severe this is for his criminal case."

Brian Lehrer: Dana, what did you take from that exchange. To our listeners not familiar with him, Ken Buck is very conservative. He's a Freedom Caucus member, who seemed to also tell you elsewhere in that interview that Kevin McCarthy deserves to lose his leadership role because of the debt ceiling compromise with Biden. He sounded concerned about the classified documents and Trump.

Dana Bash: Yes, he is. Just for even more context and this is just proof of how complicated the Republican Party is in their alliances, he is pretty much an anybody but Trump guy, because he is a conservative, who's an ideologue. He believes in small government and low spending and all of those things. He believes that, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but effectively what he has said before is, that's not who Donald Trump is. He became a Republican just because not because he believes in that stuff. Having said that, he does speak to a very big concern about the substance of the investigation and the allegations but also about the political implications.

Yes, we also would happen in New York, these kinds of things tend to help Donald Trump in the short term, but he is playing for the general election. If he is going to be the nominee, being an indicted candidate an indicted former president, the independence that we were talking about maybe even disillusioned Democrats that we're talking about, that's going to make them maybe take a pause. Which is why they're very worried about this in Trump land. Not just his lawyers, but his political team.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go. Some say an indictment is likely this week. Is that your information, too?

Dana Bash: If I knew the answer to that, I would be playing the lottery as well. We don't know, but it does seem to be soon. As you mentioned earlier that meeting seemed to be a big telltale sign, because generally speaking from people who have been involved in investigations like this, that doesn't happen until it's the 11th hour.

Brian Lehrer: Dana Bash, chief political correspondent at CNN, co-anchor of the Sunday morning talk show State of the Union with Jake Tapper and Dana Bash, and now weekdays Monday through Friday at noon Eastern, host of the show Inside Politics. Dana, thanks for coming on with us and good luck again on the new gig.

Dana Bash: Oh, it's such a pleasure. I really appreciate you having me on. Good to talk to you.

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