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Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Matt Katz, reporter in the WNYC newsroom, filling in for Brian today. Now to Afghanistan and what the investigative radio show and podcast Reveal calls the country's recognition problem. No countries recognize Taliban as the legitimate leaders of Afghanistan. That lack of recognition has come with palpable implications for people inside Afghanistan and those seeking temporary entry into the United States or humanitarian parole.

Reveal reports that the US approved only 123 Afghan humanitarian parole applications to let Afghans live legally here in these states out of about 66,000 filed. Compare that to the 68,000 Ukrainian applications that have been approved. Curious, right? We'll spend some time talking about the ripple effects of the Taliban's takeover in Afghanistan now with Najib Aminy, reporter and producer at Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting. Hi, Najib. Welcome to WNYC.

Najib Aminy: Hi, Matt. Big fan of the show. Please send my regards to Brian.

Matt Katz: Oh, we certainly will. Absolutely. I'm a big fan too, so it's nice to be here. Do you want to start by giving us a bit of background about the humanitarian parole process, what that is, and in what scenarios are people instructed to apply through that process instead of normal asylum applications?

Najib Aminy: Sure, I got you. Also just humbled to be here and thank you for making space for this story. I think even before we get into humanitarian parole, I think it's just recognizing where tens of thousands of Afghans were last year, but as well as ordinary Americans, be it veterans or not. Around this time last year, they were just trying to exhaust every potential option to get Afghans that they felt were in danger out of the country. At this point, the last flight had left and people were not giving up. They were still trying to figure out different avenues, different ways to leave the country. The main immigration pathways was the Special Immigrant Visa Priority 1, Priority 2.

For this story, I spoken to countless lawyers, people in the community, organizations like Project ANAR and so on, so forth. They've all told me that the one thing that came through at the end was this one pathway called humanitarian parole. This specific application if granted, it doesn't grant you a path to citizenship, so to speak, but it's something that's used in extreme urgent circumstances, exigent circumstances, if you will.

To give you a sense, people typically filed this if they have a medical treatment that they can only get in the US or if they're visiting a dying family member or notably, if they're seeking protection from harm. Why did people file for humanitarian parole around this time last year? It's because everything was backlogged. We're talking months and months and months of delays and the notion that you're trying to leave and catch a flight, that's time that people couldn't afford and so that's where the humanitarian parole became a viable option.

One thing I do want to stress is, this is something that USCIS, the agency responsible for handling these applications was aware of. They had a webpage with direct instructions for Afghans seeking this specific type of application and to give you a sense, the instructions were like, "Please write expedite in black ink on the top right of your application." I just want to stress that this isn't something that was just like, "Oh, word got out and please apply." This was something that was very much not just word of mouth, but a pathway that tens of thousands of Afghans felt that they were eligible for because of the protection from harm.

Matt Katz: They paid money to apply, right?

Najib Aminy: That's right. To fill out this form, you're talking about $575. $575 is a lot for me, but it's also a lot for your average Afghan and this application, it's one per person. The average Afghan family is-- It's pretty large and so to try and get you and your family out, the costs easily go up. I guess, I can talk to you about some of the findings, but yes, this was very much a costly process.

Matt Katz: You lay it out in your episode of Reveal, which was really fascinating and beautifully done, but what happened? Why did so few Afghans end up getting admitted through this process that the government had announced, that the Biden administration had promised was a pathway to safety?

Najib Aminy: I think to, I guess, delineate, this wasn't advertised as like, "Please, seek this," as if this was like Operation Allies Welcome. Humanitarian parole has been around for decades and so let's just unpack this in a couple of ways. In a typical year, USCIS receives nearly 2,000 humanitarian parole applications. 2021, after the fall of Kabul was not a typical year. After [unintelligible 00:05:48] the government for this story, and this was a team effort from a lot of different people at Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting, but we [unintelligible 00:05:58] USCIS, we got a bunch of data numbers back and more than 66,000 applications were filed.

That comparison between 2,000, 66,000, it's a lot of applications to process. There's also at the T's or at the top of this segment, you mentioned recognition. The US has no active embassy in Afghanistan at the moment. There's no consulate. Even that recognition question is also something that complicates how Afghans seeking to complete their humanitarian parole application-- There's no embassy for them to attend to complete the paperwork. I believe the government has advised, "Please go to a third party country like Pakistan or another place to complete the process." The reality is, you have this pathway, more than 66,000 people applied, the agency collected nearly $20 million in application fees.

The government is in this position where they're going through these applications. One other thing to note is you're filing this application, at least, Afghans have been filing this application because they are trying to get out of harm and their stories that are just coming out in recent days, but time is of the essence. Typically, these forms take about 90 days to process. The data that we got back shows that it's taken more than twice as long. It's just this confluence of what is, why-- legal advocates, community members are just all left with this question of-

Matt Katz: Why?

Najib Aminy: - why is the-- Right.

Matt Katz: Listeners, we can take calls about this surprisingly few Afghan applications that have been approved for humanitarian parole and more broadly about the refugee crisis in Afghanistan. Our numbers, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or feel free to tweet us @BrianLehrer. You're listening to The Brian Lehrer Show, by the way. I'm Matt Katz filling in for Brian today and our guest, if you're just joining us, is Najib Aminy, who produced and reported a really informative and important piece on the plight of Afghans who are caught in limbo as they await humanitarian parole. He did that story for Reveal, the investigative news radio show and podcast.

Najib, it's hard not to think of Ukraine and to talk about the numbers in Ukraine, which you did in your story. Obviously, Russia's invasion led to a humanitarian crisis in Ukraine and the United States, therefore, fast tracked applications for people from Ukraine who wanted to come to the United States. Can you give us a sense of how the US handled refugees from Ukraine compared to what happened with those seeking to flee Afghanistan and settle in the US?

Najib Aminy: Sure. I think it was about maybe two months after Russia invaded Ukraine, the Biden administration unveiled Uniting for Ukraine, which was an expedited humanitarian parole program for Ukrainians seeking to leave the country. I just want to stress, legal advocates, groups like Project ANAR that had been closely following Afghan HP applications and this particular space, they're all for it. No one is disagreeing. Ukraine is very much an active war zone.

What the Biden administration did with Uniting for Ukraine is like the gold star. In fact, maybe this is a model for future or maybe current parole programs. The reality is, it is strictly just for Ukraine. I believe USCIS Director Ur Jaddou, in an interview, explained and this was just maybe a few days ago. I think she described it as the reason why this program took place and I'm paraphrasing but I think this is where I can quote, "The stars aligned" in terms of how this program came about, "The stars aligned." What does that mean?

You're talking about a far more simple process. I believe all it requires is a US to sponsors a family or a specific person in Ukraine that's seeking to leave. It's just basically a financial sponsor. You don't need to go to an embassy, you can fill out the form online, you don't need to have evidence like Afghans do that say you're under harm so to speak. The process itself is far more streamlined but the discrepancy is let's just talk numbers really quick. I believed as of early August, the numbers that we got from USCIS say that they had received more than 97,000 U for U applications and they approved more than 68,000 applications.

Matt Katz: From Ukraine.

Najib Aminy: For this Uniting for Ukraine program and then compare that to Afghan HP applications specifically those who had to fill out this I-131 form from July to may the data that we looked at showed 123 applications.

Matt Katz: You interviewed somebody in the episode who refers to this as racist. Najib?

Najib Aminy: Right. That's how legal advocates feel. I'm speechless for a reason.

Matt Katz: Especially considering our history in Afghanistan and the influence we've had on this country for better and for worse over the last 20 years, it is just inexplicable.

Najib Aminy: On that point. Exactly. There seems to be a lot of focus on trying to get just translators out of the country or those particular Afghans who had a direct assistance with the US occupation, the US war effort for the past 20 years. One thing I'd like to stress is I think by doing that or even the political stance that the Biden administration is making by making that kind of statement, is the only Afghans that are worth saving are those who helped the troops. While there's a lot to be said about that sure, I think the thing that gets easily lost is 20 years of involvement in that country, a lot of Afghans are going to have some US connection.

It might not necessarily be with the military but 20 years you spend in that country, the average Afghan is going to have some connection to the US, whether you are a translator or not. One last thing I do want to raise is this is something that our lawmakers have been paying attention to, like specifically here in New York representative Ocasio, Cortez, representative, Meg who represents Flushing, Queens, just for quick context, there's little cobble over in California over in Fremont but basically flushing like a certain pocket is basically like little come to odd.

There's also Representative Velázquez who represents Brooklyn and Queens, Representative Higgins up in Buffalo. They all signed a letter, even the junior Senator from New York, Senator Gillibrand, they all signed a letter, I believe, December of 2021 urging the Biden administration to speak out or to comment on how USCIS was handling these applications.

I do want to stress lawmakers are paying attention to this. It's just the Biden administration-- The question remains, this is what we are doing for Ukraine but this is how we're proceeding forward with Afghans who are seeking humanitarian parole.

Matt Katz: Let's go to the phone lines, Nadir in Montclair. Hi there, sir.

Nadir: Hello, brother. Hi. How are you?

Matt Katz: Doing well, thank you.

Nadir: My question is that we've loped, I've been in this country now 44 years. I am originally from Cabo. My father worked, he's a defense contractor. My sister worked with the Department of Defense. Everybody, the Taliban knows exactly how my family is. I had him an Abbey Gate on the day of the bombing, got five people out to Canada.

The other seven people are still there but once they get here, this is my biggest question that nobody addresses. I've tried in vain because I speak the languages. I wanted to volunteer, go through the military base and go and run education, take donations, and everything.

Why are Afghans treated like prisoners on these military bases and the Ukrainians, the blonde hair, Blue eye Ukrainians, get a red welcome map for them? How come nobody in Congress addressing that? I contacted my senators in New Jersey, never got a response from them. I finally had to contact the Senator in New Mexico who actually responded to me. Why are we being treated like prisoners and second-class citizens while the beautiful Ukrainians get the Welcome Act?

Matt Katz: Thank you, Nadir. You're talking about the Fort in south Jersey, south-central New Jersey was housing thousands of people who've fled Afghanistan and living in essentially makeshift tents for many months and through the winter. Najib, do you know anything about that and the disparity in that respect?

Najib Aminy: I mean the caller makes a valid point and I think is it intentional? That's hard to prove. That's hard to say and without reporting or documenting or having evidence to say, it's hard for me to say that. I think what it shows is just a reflection of the system. This is how our immigration system is currently built and is it really built in a way or is the current structure really up to date with the times?

One thing I want to unpack real quick and not to get too grand but let's say this is just Afghan specific and if you're not Afghan, this might not pertain to you but if you're Haitian, this was something that came up at the border earlier this month. Let's say you're not Haitian. Maybe it doesn't apply to you. Maybe you're central American or you have relatives from that part of the world.

You can keep zooming out, zooming out, zooming out and there's a discrepancy between people that look this way versus another way but I don't like to use this Game of Thrones idiom because I'm so upset about how the show ended. I don't mean to make too much of a joke about this but it's not that climate change is coming. It's very much here.

The reason why I bring this up is like, we're talking about a Afghanistan but look at what's happening in Pakistan with the floods. Right now, the way that immigration or specifically with this parole for Afghans seeking humanitarian parole, it's a like a political football but climate change is here and it's going to force us to respond or have to respond to more and more climate refugees, things of the sort.

If this is how our current system is responding, is reacting, is handling just current situations because you could argue that it's not just man-made climate change you could say is man-made but it's almost this sense of like, "Hey, all the alarm bell are going off and this is how we're dealing with problems right now." What are we doing to prepare for much the bigger problems that are days, weeks, months, years away type of thing.

Matt Katz: Sure. How will we handle and climate refugees who, as the caller said, might be Blonde hair and Blue eyed differently from those who are Black and brown. That's going to be a looming question in a more significant question. As you said, climate change leads more people to flee their homes. I'm curious, Najib, you told stories of people who were waiting on their humanitarian parole applications. What were some of the stories you heard? Where are these folks now?

Najib Aminy: I spoke to one woman who, just for her safety, we're just going to use her first name Ulfar and it's not good. You filed this application a year ago in her case. I think she filed this application a year ago. Hasn't heard anything, has provided the evidence. She shared with us a letter that she had received from, I believe was the Taliban's intelligence agency or group. You have Afghans like [unintelligible 00:19:13] who are just spending their lives in waiting, in Limbo. It's not just in Limbo, it's in hiding. We were coming out of COVID where everyone had to self-quarantine or lockdown or there was that very cold winter where everyone was just inside.

Now imagine still having to do that but out of genuine fear of just what might happen to you and you're waiting on this response and the US made these claims or they make these bull, I want to be careful with how I phrase this, but a year goes by and it's not just how much longer can I wait, but you're draining resources. How much longer can you afford to wait? Then there's a psychological impact. It all just adds up.

Matt Katz: We actually have a clip from Ulfar. Let's take a listen.

[start of audio playback]

Speaker: We are in our homes. We don't go out. We don't go shopping. We don't go park. We don't go anywhere. We are just stay at home in a very bad situation, and really bad economical and all also mental situation. We do not know how long we can continue to stay safe.

[end of audio playback]

That's from Najib's Reveal Podcast interview with somebody who has been waiting on their humanitarian parole application is stuck in Afghanistan. Before I let you go, Najib, I was fascinated by the end of the episode where you talked about the $7 billion in Afghan assets that have just set frozen. Can you give a little overview of that? Where is the money physically? Then without those assets, how soon is the country's economy headed toward just complete collapse?

Najib Aminy: Oh, you're asking me to do this in a couple of seconds.

Matt Katz: [laughs] Well, people will listen to the episode, but give us a sense of thanks.

Najib Aminy: For sure. I think what we did is we followed one Afghan economist, Dr. Shah Mehrabi, and he sat on the Afghan Central Bank. Basically, the way to understand this is like a rainy day money for the country of Afghanistan. This helps stabilize the economy. Helps fight off inflation, things of the sort. Since the Taliban took over, the US has frozen around $7 billion in assets that were stored at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

It's not atypical for a foreign country to have money in the Federal Reserve Bank up New York. It is a bit unprecedented. You have this combination of the fact that the current country of Afghanistan can't dip into these emergency funds to deal with their economic situation which even before the last administration was not on strong footing, and everything taking place, the exit of international donors, so on and so forth.

Them leaving the country, it just made the economic situation in Afghanistan even worse today. I think the UN projects more than 95% are living off less than $2 a day. They're actually like-- The Wall Street Journal recently had an article or a report that says the US was not going to move forward with engaging in releasing these funds. It seems to be like this seesaw of like, will they, won't they release access to these funds?

I believe after talking to Dr. Mehrabi, and you can hear it in the full segment, it's still in this kind of also state of limbo. Almost we just heard about the state of limbo for tens of thousands of people seeking humanitarian parole. This $7 billion is also in the state of limbo because it comes down to this larger recognition question. For the Biden administration, especially one year on this anniversary, you can choose not to recognize the Taliban as the government in it of the country of Afghanistan, but that also comes with ramifications, that comes with economic implications.

That also comes with impacting the lives of millions and millions of Afghans. I think the thing that we wanted to do, especially the team at Reveal is we often think about Afghanistan, it's a one-year anniversary. The lives of Afghans didn't just end when the last cargo plane left the airport in Kabul, there are still millions and millions of Afghans who are just trying to get by. The reality is there are decisions made by this administration that continue to impact them severely. I think that's something that we wanted to hit on in this segment.

Matt Katz: We're going to leave it there for now, but everyone should subscribe to Reveal wherever you get your podcast. Najib Aminy is a reporter and producer at Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting. His episode is called Afghanistan's Recognition Problem. Najib, thank you so much for your reporting on this and for coming on Brian Lehrer. We appreciate it.

Najib Aminy: Thank you so much.

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