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Nancy Solomon: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm WNYC reporter Nancy Solomon, filling in for Brian today. Despite being a solidly Democratic state, the culture wars are alive and well in New Jersey, and one of the primary places is in its suburban schools. A handful of districts are trying to model themselves after Florida's "Don't Say Gay" law by requiring teachers to inform parents if they see any signs of a student making any changes to their gender identity or sexual orientation.

That's despite the state having some of the strongest civil rights protections in the country. The issue has been gaining traction in New Jersey since the last gubernatorial race two years ago, and it's also being fought vigorously by the State Attorney General. Joining us now to talk about the LGBT kids and schools in the Garden State is Nikita Biryukov, statehouse reporter for NJ Monitor. Hi, Nikita. Thanks for joining us.

Nikita Biryukov: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for having me.

Nancy Solomon: Listeners, are you a parent of a transgendered kid and concerned about their treatment at school or teachers? We know you're out there and maybe not quite in the classroom yet. We'd love to hear from you. What's been your experience with kids and gender in your classroom? 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. If you can't get through on the phone, you can send a text to that number or tweet @BrianLehrer. Nikita, the school districts that passed these policies are Manalapan-Englishtown, that's one school district, Marlborough, and Middletown. Explain exactly when this happened and where these policies stand at the moment.

Nikita Biryukov: Sure. These three districts all enacted policies to accommodate transgender students back in 2019, but those policies were amended in June to require parents be notified if their child requests an accommodation. That could be something like a name change or a pronoun change or a request to use a bathroom matching with their gender expression or identity. Currently, these policies have been blocked by a preliminary injunction, but we won't know their ultimate fate until a separate case lodged by the New Jersey Division of Civil Rights is resolved.

Nancy Solomon: Now, the lawyers for the school districts argue that informing parents does not in any way harm students, but Attorney General Matt Platkin really drew a very quick and fast line on this. I mean, I think he filed the lawsuit like the very next day that he's suing each of these districts for violating New Jersey's Law Against Discrimination. What's the state's argument exactly?

Nikita Biryukov: Sure. The Attorney General's claim is that these policies discriminate against transgender students. Also, that's the LAD claim and also that they could harm those students by outing them to parents who might not be accepting of transgender people. The claim kind of hinges on the fact that gender identity and expression are protected categories under LAD and at present just so far has found it convincing enough to issue that injunction.

Nancy Solomon: You might have said this, but so LAD being Law Against Discrimination?

Nikita Biryukov: That's correct, yes.

Nancy Solomon: What exactly are the schools wanting teachers to be on the lookout for? This just seems to be so complicated and amorphous. I guess some of the things are obvious like if a kid uses a different pronoun, but I'm very curious about the boundaries of this because I feel like this could have been me. I am a woman who's masculine and wears men's clothes, but I identify as a woman. What are the boundaries of this? What are parents and the people who are wanting parents to be informed-- what is it that they want teachers to be on the lookout for?

Nikita Biryukov: Sure. The policies themselves would've kicked in whenever a student requested what's called a social accommodation. Now, that can be, again, a name or a pronoun change, or it could be a request to use a bathroom or locker room matching their gender identity. Clothes are a little bit trickier. They might trigger a notification, but these policies typically key off an official request, which wouldn't necessarily be made if a student wanted to wear pants or a dress to school.

Nancy Solomon: I saw that, I think it was an article in nj.com, that the AG's office is arguing that this isn't really about parental choice, that schools always have had and will continue to inform parents about issues with their children, whether it's academic or behavioral. The problem with these policies, the AG's office says, is that it targets a protected class of students. Do the schools have a counter-argument to that?

Nikita Biryukov: They have a couple of points. They claim the policy isn't discriminatory because it would also apply to cisgender students, meaning ones whose gender identity aligns with the sex they were assigned at birth. They say it would apply to cisgender students who request a name change or other accommodations. They also say that they are required to make these notifications under a federal law called FERPA. That's the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, which requires schools to provide student records to the student's parents.

Nancy Solomon: Okay. Let's take a call. We have Tom in Sea Bright, New Jersey. Good morning, Tom.

Tom: Hello. Thanks for taking my call. We're pretty close to Middletown and I follow the school board there, and they all seem to be junior DeSantis and Trump wannabes, and I think that they hire these pay-to-play lawyers and that just drafted whatever the school board policy is. If they just made it general, like someone just mentioned, I think schools have a duty. These children are minors. Their parents have to care for them if they see some distress in a child, if it's suicide, cutting, expressing harm, or drug use. I don't see what the problem is if they perceive the child is under distress and letting the parents know.

I'm not even sure, in New Jersey, did [unintelligible 00:07:18] schools have a third bathroom for transgender or that if you're a boy and you say you're a girl, you can go in the girl's bathroom? I think if they just drafted it, I think they just want attention. I think they want to be junior Trumps, junior DeSantis and say, "Look, they focused just on the transgender people who then they got themselves maybe to a problem." If you look at a broader [unintelligible 00:07:47] the child seems to be in distress, so we have to tell the parents. That's what I think.

Nancy Solomon: I'm not sure there was a question in there, Nikita. I guess, do you think that this is a genuine issue that's arising in this part of New Jersey or do you think it's being fueled by some individuals or a political movement looking for attention?

Nikita Biryukov: Sure. I think the answer is actually going to be both. Obviously, Republican groups have been very forward about making transgender rights an issue. The other important thing to understand is that the New Jersey public at large isn't really comfortable with transgender people yet. There's a Monmouth University poll out yesterday that found just 36% of New Jersey adults believed someone's gender could differ from the sex they were assigned at birth. The public isn't quite there. These are in some ways legitimate discussions that are going on.

Nancy Solomon: Have you been able to see any evidence that these lawsuits all came from one specific group or that ties them all together? It's interesting that they all happened on the same night in an area in close proximity to each other, right?

Nikita Biryukov: Yes. There certainly are groups organizing around this issue. The far-right group Gays Against Groomers is one, and Republican party organizations from the local level on up to the state level have really made an effort to forward this issue ahead of this year's elections.

Nancy Solomon: Listeners, we're still going to take your calls. We'd love to hear from parents and from teachers about the issue of gender and sexuality among students at school. The number is 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Or if you can't get through on the phone, you can send a text to that number or you can tweet @BrianLehrer. Nikita, there's also been another issue going on with the state school board, I believe you covered, and issues around policies about the LGBT curriculum and issues of equity in schools. Tell us a little bit about that.

Nikita Biryukov: Sure. This happened earlier this month. There was a vote around essentially, updates to state equity policy, which is part of the state's administrative code. Basically, it sets guidelines and/or rules for what school districts have to implement on their own. This vote, the hearing on it, I have to say, was a pretty eventful one. The board just updated the chapter of the code dealing with equity and equality. Five of the 11 members there voted no. They worried the state was moving too quickly. They said it would drive a wedge between parents and teachers, and they charged that the policy itself was discriminatory.

The changes themselves mostly dealt with language, stuff like replacing the word equality with the word equity, but there were a couple of substantive changes, like requiring that districts that segregate sex ed classes, they're not required to, but they can choose to. The new policy requires that districts that segregate sex ed classes do so based on gender identity instead of on sex.

Nancy Solomon: This, of course, came up in the 2021 gubernatorial election. We had Republican candidate for governor, Jack Ciattarelli, who made a huge issue of schools teaching kids things that he deemed inappropriate. It got a lot of parents, and I would say, especially suburban parents, fired up about this. Ciattarelli ended up getting much closer to Phil Murphy in the election than was expected. Do you think that this issue has given New Jersey conservatives a playbook on how to make gains in what has become a very Democratic state?

Nikita Biryukov: I don't know that I'm willing to go quite that far, but it certainly is an area of concern for Democrats. I mentioned this a moment ago, but it's very important to remember that New Jersey runs legislative elections in odd-numbered years. What that means is that turnout is going to be abysmal pretty much no matter what. A small group of animated voters could really have an outsized effect, and a subset of New Jersey Republicans do seem really animated by these issues.

Nancy Solomon: Yes, every single legislator is up for election in November, and as you said, very small turnout election. I think that's a point worth repeating. Let's take a call from Christine in Linden, New Jersey. Hi, Christine.

Christine: Yes, hello. I am a 28 or 29-year veteran. September is going to be, I believe, year 29 for me. Historically, we teachers have been required to report to the parents all sorts of things. We're required to report to DYFS if we feel like a child is abused. We're required to report to our administrators if we feel that there's a problem at home. Often, these things tend to drive a wedge between the teachers who are just trying to help and also follow the law and the community. This is just going to be one more thing that is going to drive a wedge between the people who are hands-on, who are in the classroom trying to help the kids and the children and the community itself.

I see children walk into my classroom every day who are hungry, who are dirty, whose clothes have not been washed, and we are not encouraged to call home to speak with the parents to let them know that because the school understands that doing so will alienate the parents instead of getting them on board. We just quietly take care of things ourselves. Teachers pay for lunches. We have snacks in our drawers. We make sure that no child walks out of the building hungry. We take their clothes and wash them if necessary. We provide them-- I personally have provided children with clothing, and no one says anything about it. We just do it quietly.

In that way, we have the support of the community, the support of the parents, and the kids trust us. If we start paddling on them for little things like this, and I understand for some people it's not little, but let me tell you, I don't care what the gender or sexual orientation of the children in my class is. If they're in that classroom and they're learning and they're on task and they're happy, that's what I'm paid for. That's why I'm there.

Nancy Solomon: Thank you so much for your service to the children of your community. I guess I'd like to ask you a little bit more about-- it sounds like you don't support these policies and that you think it just causes more harm to be expected or to be required to inform parents of possible changes that you see happening with the children around gender or sexuality?

Christine: Well, I'm fortunate to work in a district where the teachers are awesome. I just feel like it's difficult to get parents on the side of teachers. That's a difficult thing. The number of parents and caretakers who really care about the growth and education of their children still exists, but it's diminishing. School is being seen as less and less and less important and teachers as less and less and less of an authority figure or a helper. When a child gets into genuine trouble, often, the parent takes the child's side, regardless of whether that's accurate or not.

We try so hard just as teachers in the classroom to reach every kid. I look around my classroom, there's every desk filled. I've got 30 to 34 kids who, each one of them have their own needs and requirements and issues and problems and trying to balance that with actually getting the curriculum done. Forget about time spent on testing and all the other things that we have to do. It's just one more thing. I don't care whether a kid is green. I don't care whether a kid-- It doesn't matter to me. If that kid is in that classroom and wants to learn, that's my priority. That's what my training and my heart is for.

If I can get a parent on my side, awesome. I have had parents who punish their children by not feeding them. Why would I then do one more thing to alienate a parent and a child from each other and from me? Many of us don't give homework anymore. It's not because it doesn't have value, it's because it's a wedge between the parent and the child and the school because there's arguments constantly over homework. Who does homework? How much homework do you have? Why do that? Life is difficult enough.

Trying to put food on that table, trying to get the kid up in the morning, get him to school, trying to work two jobs. Life is hard enough. Why make it more difficult? Why put more distance between all of us? We're all supposed to be on the same page.

Nancy Solomon: Christine, thanks so much for your call. It's great to hear a teacher's perspective in all of this. I think now we can get a perspective from a parent. We have Shayna in Morristown. You're on the line.

Shayna: Hi, thanks for taking my call.

Nancy Solomon: What do you have to say?

Shayna: I just wanted to check that you could hear me.

Nancy Solomon: We hear you.

Shayna: Great. I'm the parent of a transgender teen, and they're nonbinary and they changed their name. The school called me. When my child found out that the school called me about that, they were furious and said, "This shouldn't happen." I said, "Why? I don't really understand. It seems like it's just protocol." They pointed out that while I and my husband are very supportive of our trans child, my biggest concern was will they be accepted in society and is society ready for a transgender or a nonbinary kid?

I've been surprised at how supportive where we live in New Jersey has been and grateful for that, but there are kids who are living at home with parents who are not supportive and who are not accepting. I loved hearing your previous caller who talked about the teacher who has to step in when the parents aren't there for the kids. The terrible story of the parent who punishes their child by not feeding them, my God. There are parents who aren't going to accept that their children are trans, so the safe place that they feel to do that first is school.

If the school were to call the home of every parent and say, "This is what your child is trying to do," we don't know what those parents are going to do to those children. The suicide rate of kids who are LGBTQ+, we know that suicide rate is high. It is likely that it is higher in places where their families and their parents don't accept them. These rules are here for a lot of reasons. I think the biggest reason is what if the school calls home, tells the parents that their children are behaving in such a way that's not conforming with their gender, and the parent punishes the child, hurts the child, doesn't accept the child, and the child then self-harms or attempts self-harm?

That seems to be the biggest issue to me. I didn't hear it mentioned yet, so I just wanted to call in to make sure it was brought up.

Nancy Solomon: Yes. Thanks so much for the call. I believe there is a case, I don't have the details in front of me, and maybe Nikita you do, that there is a case of a student who died by suicide after being bullied over issues around, I believe, that person's trans identity. I know there have been a couple of other very high-profile cases where schools didn't act on bullying and are now being sued over those suicides.

Nikita, any thoughts on these callers? Linden and Morristown are not exactly progressive strongholds in New Jersey. It's interesting to get calls from places that are really very politically mixed in that way.

Nikita Biryukov: Yes. I will say, Linden, it just happens to be where the Senate president lives, so it's a little bit of a Democratic town, but certainly, New Jersey has always more to the moderate Democratic line than the progressive Democratic line. As to the concerns about student safety, when trans students get out, that is one of the state's big concerns. Now, the districts say that there are provisions of these policies that would bar notification in cases where they think that it would endanger a student, but those typically require some sort of documented evidence.

Nancy Solomon: The term parental choice is certainly a very powerful one, Nikita. What parent doesn't want to have control over what their kid reads, watches, learns? To what extent is this debate about parental choice? How much of it is homophobia hiding behind this term to get people whipped up about it?

Nikita Biryukov: That's a hard question to answer. I'm sure homophobia is part of it, but again, it's important to understand that on transgender issues, the New Jersey public isn't quite comfortable yet. Obviously, large majorities of the state's Republicans oppose schools even teaching about gender identity at any grade level. There is some baked-in opposition there, but it's hard to say generally.

Nancy Solomon: Okay. Well, we're going to have to leave it there for today. My guest has been Nikita Biryukov, statehouse reporter for NJ Monitor. Thanks so much for joining us.

Nikita Biryukov: Thanks again for having me.

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