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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. New York City is famous for a lot of things, our towering skyscrapers, busy lifestyles, and perfection of pizza by the slice, just to name a few, but Mayor Adams is hoping to eradicate one thing the city is known for, our sizable rat population. The city's most recent war on rats so far has consisted of numerous changes to our garbage disposal policies. As many of you know, as many of you are living with, including later trash set-out times, enforcement of trash bins for businesses, the appointment of a rat czar, that's a new title in city government, and more. Joining us now to give an update on the work of the City Sanitation Department, the City entity charged with keeping our streets clean and rat-free.

Also on the rollout of the five borough composting program and to take your calls is Jessica Tisch, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Sanitation. Commissioner, welcome back to WNYC. Thanks for coming on again.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Good morning, Brian. Thank you so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: To start on the topic of rats, it's been about five months since the city appointed Kathleen Corradi, as the rat czar. Has the city seen a decrease in the rat population since her appointment and your department's new trash policies?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: On April 1st, the Department of Sanitation changed the set-out times for trash and we moved the time back from 04:00 PM to 08:00 PM. Since April 1st, so in May, June, and July, we saw a 20% decrease citywide in rat complaints to 311, and notably a 45% decrease in the rat mitigation zones. Now, changing the set-out times isn't the only thing we've done. We've also put in place requirements that certain types of businesses put their trash in containers. Specifically, we started with food-related businesses, so things like restaurants, bodegas, bars, delis, because we know that human food is rat food, and we've got to get that rat food off the street.

Those rules went into effect a month ago. We did one month of warnings, and now the new rules related to containerizing waste for chain businesses have gone into effect. We are really laser-focused on getting the trash off the street, and in particular, containerizing New York City's waste.

Brian Lehrer: What are the new rules for chain businesses and what businesses are those, for example?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: We are requiring that now all food businesses, and in addition, all chain businesses, defined as any business that has five or more locations in New York City, instead of putting their trash on the ground, on the sidewalk, they've got to put all of their trash in containers.

Brian Lehrer: Can you measure the impact?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Well, you see, over the past three months, the huge decline in the rat complaints to 311. That is a great indicator that the program to get the 44 million pounds of trash that sit on our sidewalks off of our sidewalks faster and put more of the trash in containers is working. I just want to say, Brian, yes, the rat stuff is very important, but there are other huge benefits to containerizing our trash in New York City. Among them, the odors, the look and feel of the streets. I am focused on containerizing all 44 million pounds of trash in New York City. When we do that, we are not going to be the first city in the world to do it. We will be one of the last. This is New York City playing a real game of catch-up on the waste management front.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, may I say, and you'll probably laugh and you'll probably say, it doesn't surprise you, that I didn't even give out the phone number yet to invite listeners to call with their questions for you, and all our lines are full. Listeners, for when people finish up and you want to try to get in to ask the New York City Sanitation Commissioner Jessica Tisch a question, it's 212-433-WNYC, but our text message stream and our Twitter feed never fill up, so you can text your question to that same number, 212-433-9692, or tweet at @BrianLehrer. On the topic of rats, we'll take Nan in Manhattan calling in. Nan, you're on WNYC with the Sanitation Commissioner. Hi, there.

Nan: Hi. I just want to point out that I came home around 11:00 from the subway and I passed a construction dumpster. Six rats came out of the dumpster onto the sidewalk where I was going to walk. I believe these don't get emptied for like a month or more. If the workers are putting their trash debris from food or half-empty coffee cups in them, they're sitting there for months or a month, and that needs to be regulated in some way, and education-- "Put the food trash somewhere that gets picked up," as opposed to in the dumpster.

Brian Lehrer: Nan, thank you. Construction dumpsters, Commissioner.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: We work very closely with the Department of Buildings on this issue, but your caller is 100% right. The waste has to be put in a container, and that container has to be emptied regularly. It can't just sit outside there. The waste has to be in a container with a secure lid and has to be emptied daily. This is something, as I mentioned, that we work closely with the Department of Buildings to manage how construction sites handle their waste.

Brian Lehrer: Tina in central Harlem is calling about the 08:00 PM trash set-out time, and I think she wants it to be even stricter. Tina, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Tina: Hi. Good morning, Commissioner. Good morning, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I've been a landlady here for ages. My parents were a small building, few tenants. We've been able to put our trash out at night. Obviously, the Sanitation Department is trying to minimize overnight rat population trash issues. I fail to see how from 06:00 PM, which used to be the time to put out the trash, to 08:00 PM is that markedly different. The concern here is when sanitation picks up, their pickup times, and if they were to pick up from 10:00 AM to 06:00 PM, and I know that overlaps with school stuff, but I used to have that issue anyway, because the morning trash trucks were still out blocking access to schools.

Then we could put trash out from 07:00 AM to 10:00 AM before you leave for work, maybe 06:00 AM to 10:00 AM. It's not overnight. It's the overnight frenzy of rats that makes this such an issue. They just made all these big rule changes and it's going to make such a little dent.

Brian Lehrer: Tina, thank you very much. Commissioner, interesting proposal. Instead of the night before at all, even though it's later than it used to be and gives the rats fewer hours with a shot at the trash, why not have people do it in the morning and then start the trucks rolling at 10:00 o'clock?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: One thing that I want to clarify is that the old set-out time for trash used to be 04:00 PM. We had trash sitting on the streets at all hours of the day because the commercial trash could be put out an hour before closing, so that was really any time of the day. In New York City, there was trash all over the place, all the time. We said, when we change the rules, you can set out your trash at 08:00 PM. You could put it out earlier if you put it in a container with a lid. In addition to asking New Yorkers to change, we at the Department of Sanitation also completely overhauled our own operation.

Instead of collecting all the trash the next morning at 06:00 AM and then 20% of it later at 04:00 PM the next day, we are now collecting 30% on our midnight shift and the balance of it starting at 05:00 AM. We have moved all of our trash collection to be significantly earlier in the day. In particular, we are focusing our midnight collection in our rat mitigation zones, which happen to overlap with the high-density parts of the city.

Brian Lehrer: Her question is, even with all of that, the rat buffet goes on in those overnight hours when there aren't many people walking the street, so why not shift the whole thing to the morning?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: What we've seen in modern cities across the world, the trash collection is often done now overnight, and that is because it's a huge number of trucks on the street. They're making a huge number of collections on each route. Fighting that middle-of-the-day traffic when everyone is using the streets is just a really bad time to perform such a massive operation, which is why we have a big part of our operation overnight and the balance very early in the morning.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJU 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live-streaming at WNYC.org, at two minutes before 11:00, as we continue with the New York City Sanitation Commissioner, Jessica Tisch. Commissioner, I see the Sanitation Department has been taking to Twitter to publicly shame some businesses into compliance and praise those that are getting it right. Some victims of your shaming have been Ralph Lauren and Dunkin' Donuts. I think there's a Dunkin' Donuts now on every second corner, or more like every third corner in New York City. Anyway, Dunkin' Donuts. While the Seaport Marriott Hotel got your stamp of approval. What violations will land a business on your naughty list for public consumption on Twitter or X?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: The thinking on this strategy is there are very basic rules in New York City now around cleanliness. As I described before, certain types of businesses have to do a very simple thing, which businesses around the world already do, which is put their trash in a container instead of on the street. We've been very flexible with where businesses are allowed to store those containers. With all the outreach we've done, with the one month of warnings that we've done, with the mailers that we've sent to every business, the door-to-door canvassing for all affected businesses, the thinking is if a business hasn't gotten the message yet and isn't complying, then they don't want to comply.

If putting it on blast on Twitter is the way to get compliance, not just for that business, but for other businesses that may worry that they're going to end up there, then so be it. The other thing that we've done on our social media is really highlight, as you mentioned, some businesses that are complying. Just last night and again this morning, we did a great post about Gray's Papaya. We declared today, September 7th, Gray's Papaya Day at the New York City Department of Sanitation because they had the most gorgeous set of bins out last night. Then this morning, when we went back, the bins were right up against the property line, and it just showed how doable this is.

Brian Lehrer: Cool. Gray's Papaya. Another reason to love Gray's Papaya. Nicole in Bushwick, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Nicole: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Hi, Commissioner Tisch. I run a group in Bushwick called the Clean Bushwick Initiative, focused on sanitation, environmental issues. We are very happy about this containerization as well as composting that's about to roll out in Brooklyn. It's great for rodent mitigation, but obviously for clean streets and environmental reasons. I truly hope it's going to be enforced, most importantly, because without that, I don't know how effective it will be. I'm definitely noticing a slight reduction in the rodent, rat issue in Bushwick, which is, as I'm sure you probably know, very, very, very bad. We have a lot of rat problems there. My question is actually about composting once it's rolled out.

I know now part of the compost, a lot of what goes on in Staten Island is going actually to being composted. A lot of the other organics that are being collected currently in the Orange Bins are really going to biogas. I wondered if you could talk about whether or not going forward, as the program expands, if more will be composted as opposed to sent to the biogas facility out there in that Greenpoint.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Nicole, you are right, there is a portion of the food waste that we compost, and another portion goes to our anaerobic digesters and becomes renewable energy. We are working to strike the right balance in New York City. Right now, we have put out an RFP to solicit providers who can provide both composting and digestion services. The answer for you is we are working right now to strike the right balance, and we will know more once we get the responses to that request for proposals.

Brian Lehrer: Nicole, thank you very much for that question. You want to lay out to our listeners who may not be familiar with it yet what the new composting system is in the City, the new policy that covers all five boroughs?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: I really do. On October 2nd, we are going to be rolling out universal curbside composting service to the entire borough of Brooklyn. That means every resident in Brooklyn will get compost pickup on their recycling day, starting October 2nd. This isn't a program that's going to be start and stop. This is a program that is now in New York to stay. We already rolled out the entire borough of Queens. After we're done with Brooklyn, over the next year, we're going to be providing service to the remaining boroughs. Staten Island and the Bronx will get service in the spring of '24, and Manhattan will get service in the fall of '24.

The program is really simple. Give us anything from your kitchen, anything from your yard. If you cook it, or you grow it, you can throw it. We will come, as I mentioned, every day on your recycling day, and we will pick up the compost in addition to the metal, glass, plastic, and paper.

Brian Lehrer: What are people supposed to put the composted materials in as compared to what we put our other trash in or our recyclables in.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: The compost material has, if it's food waste, it's got to be in a bin with a lid. We are offering, at the Department, free bins to any Brooklyn resident. You just have to sign up for one and order one before the service starts on October 2nd. There's still plenty of time to do it. We've had tens of thousands of requests for bins already over the past few weeks. We've been delivering them. If you decide you don't need a new bin, or you missed the deadline to order it or something happens, you can use any bin you want. Just label it compost, set it out, and we will come collect it on your recycling day. We're going to be offering these free bins as we turn on service in every borough going forward.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a composting bin question that came in via text message from somebody in Queens, which is the borough that already has this. Listener writes, "Composting. I live in a garden apartment complex in Queens. We have four small compost bins that are picked up only once a week for 100 buildings. Also, it's only at one end of the development that is five blocks-long." Listener writes, "This is ridiculous. Can you help?" We don't know which garden apartment complex in Queens that is. There are many. I grew up mostly in one of them, but I don't know if it's that one. What's the solution?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Collection of compost, or source separation of food waste and yard waste, is about to become mandatory in New York City, which means that the problems in past programs where some buildings didn't provide compost bins or accommodate compost set out the way they did, for example, metal, glass, plastic, and paper, those days are behind us because now those large buildings, when the program becomes mandatory, will be required to facilitate set-out of compost. My hope and expectation is that as soon as the program becomes mandatory, larger buildings that are not currently accommodating set-out of compost will have to. Otherwise, they will face fines.

Brian Lehrer: Since this is coming to Brooklyn on October 2nd, here's a composting bin question from Avi in Flatbush. You're on WNYC with the Sanitation Commissioner, Jessica Tisch. Hi, Avi.

Avi: Hi. I have a question. I have my compost bin. I'm super excited that composting is coming to Brooklyn, and my neighbors are too. I have seen a lot of confusion about lining the bins, whether to use a bag. There's instructions on the website that say you can use a bag to keep it clean, but it doesn't specify a compostable bag. It says you can tie it up [crosstalk].

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: That's exactly right.

Avi: I'm worried-- Right, but I'm worried that that means that a lot of people are going to be using plastic bags and that will defeat the purpose of using a compost bin as opposed to newspaper or using a compostable bag or just putting it in the bin, which would be fine and what I plan to do. If you could clarify how to keep that from happening.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: I can. Avi, people can put it directly in the bin and wash the bin each time they use it. They can put it in a compostable bag, a plastic bag, whatever they want. If they use plastic, rest assured, our process takes that plastic out before the material is composted or digested.

Brian Lehrer: Hope that's helpful, Avi. A listener tweets, "How about single-stream recycling? With compost, I'll have four waste bins in a New York City kitchen."

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Yes. We've seen a number of cities around the country move to single-stream recycling over the past decade, and they've had significant challenges with it, meaning a lot of the material ends up either not being recyclable and/or sellable on the commodities markets. My thought is that until single-stream processing becomes more effective, we can't contemplate moving back. I love the idea. My thought is, at this moment, the technology is not there to accommodate it in a meaningful way, but it is the way of the future.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to run out of time in a minute. Let me ask you one more composting question, and that's about what not to put in a composting bin. People may not have this list clear. Gothamist reported that your department specifically noted that deceased animals and animal waste cannot go in compost bins, although animal-based food scraps, meat scraps are allowed. Why the distinction? Maybe take this moment to remind listeners what cannot be composted.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Let's start with what can be composted. Any food, human food, cat food, whatever type of food you want to put in there, any food-soiled paper, basically any paper from your kitchen, a paper towel, a paper plate, anything from your garden that you grow, all of that can go in the bin. In past composting programs, there was a distinction, "Oh, you can't compost meat and dairy. You have to separate that stuff out." No, this is easy. If it's food-soiled paper or if it's anything you grow, you can compost it.

Brian Lehrer: The last word from Jessica Tisch, New York City Sanitation Commissioner, who is good enough to join us from time to time and take your many trash and recycling and now composting questions. Commissioner, thank you so much.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Thanks for having me.

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