[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll talk now about the case of Jose Alba, a 61 year old bodega employee in Hamilton Heights, who earlier this month was attacked at work by a man with a knife identified as Austin Simon. After a struggle, Alba got hold of the knife and stabbed Simon at least five times as it's been reported in the Daily News and elsewhere. Simon died and Alba was arrested and charged in the fatal stabbing.

Now, Alba supporters like the United Bodegas of America insist that this was a case of self defense. They're pushing Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg to drop the serious charges against Alba. They've also pitched a stand your ground law, like the one cited by George Zimmerman in Florida after he killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin back in 2012. We'll get into the charges against Jose Alba, the supporters appeal to DA Bragg and the plea for greater protections for bodega workers in general, and also another threat to the bodegas and their customers as well. All these so-called fast delivery stores or dark stores springing up in our area.

With us now as Fernando Mateo, founder, and spokesman for United Bodegas of America, an organization providing advocacy and support for bodega owners through the city. Some of you may remember that Fernando Mateo is also in the Republican primary for mayor of New York, which he lost to Curtis Sliwa last year. He has also represented taxi drivers and black car drivers in New York for many years. Fernando, welcome back to WNYC. Good morning.

Fernando Mateo: Brian, good morning. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: I'm okay, thank you. What more would you like to add about the incident by way of background for our listeners who may be hearing the name Jose Alba for the first time?

Fernando Mateo: Jose Alba is a Bodega clerk who went to work like he did every morning expecting to put in a hard day's work and unfortunately, a man ran behind the counter, attacked him. A very young man went behind the counter and attacked a 61-year-old man basically looking to kill him. Jose Alba picked up a knife and defended himself. Unfortunately, Simon died. In essence, this is a case where the video speaks for itself. The video tape clearly shows that Jose Alba was not looking for trouble.

That Jose Alba was backing down and that Jose Alba was just wanting this man to go away. The judge and the jury in this case will be the videotapes that everyone has seen nationwide. There's no judge or jury in New York City that will find Jose Alba guilty of murder. It was clearly self defense. We met with DA Bragg. We went over the situation with him and listen, he's in his right to say that he is investigating and he needs to finish his investigation before he makes a determination, which is very good for us because that means that he has not already judged this man as being a guilty man and that he's going to prosecute.

What it means is that he could drop the charges today, tomorrow, or the next day. In all fairness to him, he has a duty to the city of New York and to the people of New York to properly investigate any crime that he believes has been committed. In essence, what we're saying by all of this is Jose Alba will be exonerated. The charges should be dropped or will be dropped and that's what we're looking for. We're looking for justice for Jose Alba.

Brian Lehrer: Is it your understanding of how the legal system works that a DA would charge somebody before conducting a full investigation? Obviously, there was a bloody and even fatal incident that took place there before the video emerged. They didn't know exactly what happened. Maybe they took Jose Alba into custody, but he did get charged with murder. Now, you're saying it's reasonable to expect the DA to take some action and then to conduct the full investigation. You're confident that these charges will be dropped, but is that the way it works?

Fernando Mateo: That's the way it works. In essence, there's a body, someone was killed. Someone killed that person in self defense. While the dust settles I think DA Bragg believes he was doing the right thing by arresting Jose Alba. We believe that maybe he should have waited a little bit before arresting him looking at the evidence and we believe that one mistake was made and that was the arrest of Jose Alba.

Now, having said that he doesn't want to make a second mistake. He doesn't want to make a mistake by either dropping the charges or prosecuting him. He wants to dot his dots and cross his teeth. We've got to give him that opportunity. DA Braggs was very nice to us. He was very coherent. He listened to us. We sat with him for an hour and we believe that he will come to the right conclusion and drop the charges of Jose Alba simply because not just public opinion, but if there's an outcry.

The mayor of New York City said, "You know what? After viewing these tapes, we believe that Jose Alba is a hardworking man. I back hardworking people in this city." He also said that the wife of Simon who repeatedly stabbed Jose Alba should have been arrested. She has not. DA Bragg is really taking his time to make sure he doesn't make a second mistake in this case. Listen, we're going to give him the benefit of the doubt, but time is of the essence. Jose Alba is living in prison in his own mental prison because he believes that it was self defense.

It was clear as they, and you know what, thank God that high definition videotapes were recorded because if they weren't Jose Alba would be facing 20 to 30 years in prison. I tell every bodega owner, every small business owner that's vulnerable to looters, to shoplifters, to thieves, to murderers, to of people that assault have high definition cameras. They will tell the story better than what you can. There's no way of denying what happened when you can see it and that's what the nation has seen. That's why the entire country is calling for DA Bragg to drop the charges of Jose Alba

Brian Lehrer: Listeners. We have time for a few phone calls about the case of Jose Alba, the bodega worker charged with murder after a fatal stabbing, that supporters say was a clear case of self defense, but beyond that, the plight of bodega workers in general in New York today. Anybody who owns a bodega listening right now, anybody who works at a bodega listening right now or from, by generalization, any other convenience store, let's say that may make you feel vulnerable in this relatively high crime period in New York City, how do you protect yourself? How do you prepare to protect yourself? Are you using surveillance video in the way our guest, Fernando Mateo, founder, and spokesman for United Bodegas of America just suggested, 212-433-WNYC is our phone number (212) 433-9692. Anyone connected with bodegas encouraged to call in, invited to call in, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Also, the other question that Gothamist reported on the other day, these so-called dark stores, fast delivery stores that aren't really stores people can't go into them, bad for the customers because you can't buy with cash from them. In poor neighborhoods where people don't have a lot of credit card credit, perhaps it's a problem for the customers. It's certainly unlicensed competition in many cases for people who own neighborhood stores like bodegas, just trying to make a living in their relationships with people in the neighborhood.

212-433-WNYC. (212) 433-9692. The motive for the attack on Jose Alba, Fernando, that led to that led to the stabbing. From the Daily News, Austin Simon charged behind the counter to confront Alba after his girlfriend's attempt to buy a bag of chips for her daughter was refused. The mom tried to pay for the snacks, despite lack of funds on her EBT card. She then left the store to find her boyfriend and the couple returned to confront the store worker.

Then it says, security footage obtained by the Daily News shows Simon, 34, getting up in Alba's face as the white-bearded worker backpedals away. That's the video that probably many of you have seen on television or on the web by now. I guess the girlfriend was saying that Alba snatched the bag of chips out of the daughter's hands and don't touch my daughter, that kind of thing. Anything you want to add to what precipitated this?

Fernando Mateo: Listen, what happened was inexcusable. The bag of potato chips has nothing to do with the fact that Austin Simon rushed behind that counter and started beating on this 62-year-old man. There's no excuse for that type of behavior. The problem in this city is that we're not prosecuting low-level crimes, and low-level crimes turn to become bigger-level crimes. Criminals have taken over our streets. Bill de Blasio left us in a bloodbath. He destroyed the city, and now he's running for Congress. He wants to destroy the country.

I don't understand how in hell we're going to get things under control if we don't have a stand your ground law, if we don't allow legitimate law-abiding business people to apply for a handgun so that they can defend themselves. Because right now, all the handguns are in the hands of criminals. DA Braggs told me yesterday that he had 30,000 cases of illegal guns. Guess what I asked him, "How many of those cases are against anyone that has a legal license, a license to carry, a law-abiding citizen?" You know what he said? Zero. None.

It's not legal gun-licensed people that we need to be afraid of. We need to be afraid of all the criminals, all the thugs that are carrying the guns.

In fact, when there's a shooting, who do we call? We call an armed police officer. When there's a mass shooting, we could only wish that a licensed gun owner was there to put down that shooter. It's law-abiding people that we need in this city to protect us because you know what? There aren't enough cops in the city to go around and protect everyone. The crime is so high in New York that we have to take dramatic steps, and I'm hoping that district attorneys are going to start prosecuting. That's really what this is about.

Brian Lehrer: Now you're sounding like the Republican mayoral hopeful who was running in the election campaign last year. I'm just saying when you blame Bill de Blasio, maybe he holds some responsibility. There are high-crime cities all across this country in the pandemic. I'm just saying there are different things going on out there. When you call for a stand your ground law as a response to this, like the George Zimmerman defense in his killing of Trayvon Martin, go ahead.

Fernando Mateo: That was a travesty of justice. I think that Zimmerman should have gone to jail. There will always be exceptions to the rule. There will always be corrupt people in the game. Things happen for a reason. First of all, everyone that knows me knows that I am not a politician. I'm not the kind of guy that ran because I'm a life-career politician. I'm a businessman. Because I could see what's going on in this city, I wanted to do something for the city.

I am not a politician. I don't even like politics. The truth you have to lay on the ground. Bill de Blasio destroyed New York City in eight years. No doubt. No, I've lived here my entire life. 62 years I've lived in New York City, and I've never seen a government that could put down a city as quickly as Bill de Blasio.

Brian Lehrer: I want to leave the de Blasio conversation on the side because I want to stay in our remaining time on topic. The stand your ground concept, as I understand it, means that a person does not have a legal obligation to retreat first if they're being threatened before they attack the person who either is attacking them or they think is going to attack them. Jose Alba did try to retreat. I saw the video. Jose Alba did try to retreat first. He tried to just move away from Austin Simon, and Simon pursued him in a little space in the store.

stand your ground wouldn't even be necessary for Jose Alba's defense. Tell me if you disagree, but why go all the way to stand your ground, which has the potential for the kind of vigilante abuse as even you see it in the case of George Zimmerman?

Fernando Mateo: First of all, your definition of standing ground and my definition of it are two different things altogether. You're going to the extreme, I am in the middle. I'm in the center. Jose Alba stood his ground. Jose Alba defended himself. We're not saying that if someone's retreating from an issue, shoot him or kill him. No, what we're saying is that someone's life is in danger, their family's life is in danger or their community. Someone in their community like Junior Guzman.

You remember that case where a gang rang this kid into a bodega? The bodega owner did very little to assist him, and ultimately, Junior Guzman was killed. If that bodega owner would have killed one of these people who killed Junior Guzman, he would have been in jail for 20 years. That's what stand your ground means to us. It's not the far right stand your ground. It's the middle of the road stand your ground, defend your property, defend your business, and defend the people that are around you.

That's what stand your ground means. Stand your ground means that if you see a mass shooter in a school and you have a licensed weapon, for you to use it to put down that person. That's what stand your ground means to us, not the extreme of Zimmerman. Zimmerman, to me, was guilty as hell, and that was a bad decision. Like that, there are people that make bad decisions all the time. There are cops that are corrupt, but 99.9% of them are not. That's really what this is about. It's about people being able to defend their livelihood. That's what stand your ground really means.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM, HD, and AM, New York. WNJT-FM 88.1, Trenton. WNJP 88.5, Sussex. WNJY 89.3 Netcong and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are on New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming at wnyc.org. A few more minutes with Fernando Mateo in his role as the founder of United Bodegas of America and the Jose Alba case. The case of the Hamilton Heights bodega worker who stabbed and killed a man who was attacking him, and whether DA Bragg should drop the murder charges against Jose Alba. Carlos in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in, Carlos. Hi.

Carlos: Hey, Brian. How are you? My comment has to do with the kind of very fragile psychological work that bodega workers and what we call deli workers, mostly of Yemenite descent. The Yemeni workers had swapped [unintelligible 00:18:16] like the habibi have to deal with a lot of really complicated, very complex issues of denying people credit, people asking for a loosie cigarette for free. EBT cards that don't have any money, and people argue that they do. Not always the best level of communication, not always the best choice of words.

A lot of vulgarity, a lot of anger, a lot of people ready to just go off. I think that that's something that hasn't been addressed because there are no security guards at these places, so they not only are managing the store, looking out that people may not be shoplifting, but also serving people, making coffee, making sandwiches. Sometimes there might be two, there might be three people working there, but sometimes there's only one.

The decisions that these people have to make, no one understands the complexity of communication and how sympathetic they have to be with people's problems in neighborhoods where there's a lot of issues, financial issues. Issues of substance abuse, issues of very complicated machismo issues. People that have to stand their ground. Not just the bodega owner standing his ground or the habibi worker but the person that comes is in standing her ground or his ground. It's really difficult work, and that I don't think has been addressed.

Brian Lehrer: Carlos, thank you very much for putting it so well. Fernando, I imagine you agree with a lot of that.

Fernando Mateo: Listen, Carlos hit the nail on the head. He evidently comes from these communities that have a lot of bodegas and his understanding of the business is right on. I commend him. When you speak to educated people that understand, you realize that you're not wrong. In this particular case, Jose Alba was not wrong. He was basically trying to save his life. The good thing here is that you have a high-definition video recording that actually shows every minute of what happened or what transpired. How Jose Alba was beaten, how he was pushed, how he defended himself, how Simon's wife started stabbing him.

All of these things are seen when the cops make the arrest. These are all the video evidence that DA Bragg is combing through right now so that he makes the right decision when he pulls the trigger. That's what we need. Listen, stand your ground means self-defense, and self-defense should not be a crime. Self-defense is something that every human being is entitled to defending themselves.

Brian Lehrer: Take me one step further into your call for a stand-your-ground law. I'll note that the Yemeni Bodegas Association who the caller mentioned, and we've had one of their leaders on in the past is with you on this. If we assume that what Jose Alba did is already considered self-defense under New York law and that these charges against him are going to be dropped as it sounds like you anticipate and a lot of people now anticipate, Mayor Adams has taken his side too. If we assume that self-defense is self-defense, and it's going to the right will out in that, why do we need to stand your ground law in addition?

Fernando Mateo: Because this isn't going to stop. This is going to continue. Right now you see how many stores have shut down in New York because of looters. They go in and packs on motorcycles, on bikes, on four-wheelers. They park in front of a store and 20 of them go in and ransack the stores and put the owners out of business. The disarray that's going on in New York right now is beyond anything of anyone's wild imagination.

When you hear that New York City is being compared to Chicago, my God, it's like I get goosebumps because you know what? Mayor Adams came into office looking to make this city better, and we need to help him. The Mayor isn't going to do it alone. NYPD isn't going to do it alone. We need law-abiding people to come out and defend the city against these criminals. These criminals don't belong on the streets.

The prosecutors, the district attorney need to start prosecuting. They need to start putting these people away because one small thing today leads to a bigger thing tomorrow. That's the biggest problem that we're having. Not just in the bodega industry, the taxi industry which I represent. They stabbed a taxi driver to death a week and a half ago, six times they stabbed them to death. For what? For pennies? Come on. We need to take our city back somehow.

Brian Lehrer: Doug in Manhattan, you're on-

Fernando Mateo: Brian, I don't know if you live in New York, but if you do-

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I do.

Fernando Mateo: -you should be very concerned. You should be very concerned.

Brian Lehrer: Of course I am and people who know this show know that, of course, we take these issues seriously. The question is it always gets complicated as to how and protect people's rights at the same time. Doug in Manhattan, you're on WNYC.

Doug: Hey, Brian, how are you? First-time caller. Actually, I've called a bunch of times, but now I finally got through. Listen, I'm a former retired police officer. My thing is that Alba would've never been arrested if he had been a white woman's south of 96th Street. If he had done the same thing in the same place in the same way, again, policing north of 96th Street is different than policing south of 96th Street.

The fact that he was who he was, was the reason he went to jail. The man had no criminal record at all ever. Why would he need to sit in Rikers? They could have put a bracelet on his ankle if they thought he was a flight risk, there was no reason for that. Again, because of who he was, because of his color, because of his economic status, that's why he went to jail and is being charged with murder.

Again, I was a police officer for 25 years in this city and I see it all the time, privilege race. If he had been a 61-year-old white woman who stabbed a guy, because he tried to rob her in Central Park, would she had been in Rikers? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Mateo's idea of this stand-your-ground thing is insane. It'll just be a wild west. First thing of self-defense you're taught, never fight for property.

Property is replaceable. You have insurance. If your welfare is at stake, then you defend yourself. If they're going to run up in there and grab 15 boxes of Pampers, let them have it. What are you going to do? Fire wildly into a bunch of people, possibly hitting somebody or maybe a stray bullet goes outside and hits the child outside. It's insane.

Brian Lehrer: Doug, let me ask you one follow-up question in your experience as a police officer. You weren't a prosecutor, you were a cop, but still should in this circumstance, as you understand it, Alba be charged with something, but a lesser crime? That's what some people are saying.

Doug: Absolutely not. He was trapped in a space retreating from an attack. He didn't know if this guy was just going to smack him in the face or throw nasty words at him. This man physically attacked him in a space where he did not know he would be able to retreat from and did not know the severity of, and he shouldn't have to know the severity of the attack. He defended himself in a situation where he felt his life was in jeopardy. Absolutely not. He should be in charged with anything.

Brian Lehrer: Doug, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. I'm glad you got through. Call us again. Fernando, we've got about a minute left. Do you agree with his racial analysis here of who would or would not have been charged with anything under these circumstances?

Fernando Mateo: I don't like to bring race into anything so I'm not going to entertain what he said. I also will not entertain the fact that if someone is stealing a box of Pampers or milk or something, we're going to shoot him. That's not what I said. That's not what our intentions are. In fact, the message that we give all of our bodega owners is if somebody comes and loots and robs you and steals or shoplifts, let him go call 911.

I'm talking about a life and death situation. Common sense should tell this former police officer, that common sense should tell him that no one is going to turn around and shoot someone over a box of Pampers. That's not threatening. That's not putting someone's life in danger. What happened to Alba is putting someone in danger. Having someone put a gun to your head or a knife to rob you, that's putting your life in danger. That's what stand our ground means.

He's a former police officer. I'm sure he carries his gun. If he sees a shooting in the middle of the street where there are little kids on the street, is he going to keep his gun in the holster or is he going to pull out his gun and shoot the shooter? What's he going to do? That is what stand your ground means is defending the public, defending your life, defending yourself, not defending property. Property you can get. Common sense. He should feel a bit of shame by saying what he said because what he said made no sense whatsoever.

Brian Lehrer: There we leave it for today with Fernando Mateo, Founder and Spokesman for United Bodegas of America. Of course, we will see what happens with DA Bragg and the Jose Alba case. Fernando, thanks a lot. We really appreciate it.

Fernando Mateo: Thank you. Thank you.

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.