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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Academia has long been a battleground in the culture war, you know that. We find the next juncture on this battleground in Florida, where else? But with national implications for state universities everywhere, Governor Ron DeSantis has signed a spate of laws that among other things regulate what faculty at state colleges and universities can teach about race and identity. These laws also have implications for the tenure system and require yearly surveys that they call Viewpoint Diversity Surveys from students and faculty.

Some educators at Florida colleges and around the country are worried about what this might lead to. We'll get into the specifics of these laws and what they actually do now with Lori Rozsa, reporter covering Florida for The Washington Post. Her article on this is called In Florida, DeSantis's plans for colleges rattle some academics and some academics and some experts say the changes affecting state universities are a sign of things to come nationally.

We had Lori up and it looks like her line dropped. We're going to get her back in just a second. What I'm going to do while we're doing that-- Oh, we do have her back. I'm just going to say hi, Lori. Thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Lori Rozsa: Hi, thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: The most publicized of these new laws is the one that DeSantis himself has dubbed the Stop WOKE Act, the Stop WOKE Act. What does that law actually do?

Lori Rozsa: It limits what teachers can say really in classrooms about critical race theory. Some other issues, that's the problem with the law. [unintelligible 00:01:58] teaches that it's vague. The governor's definition of woke is all over the map, but what it does is--

Brian Lehrer: Whoops. I think we're still having problem with Lori Rozsa's line. Think she dropped off again. While we get this stabilized, here's what I'm going to do folks. I'm going to read a little bit from her article, which lays this out pretty well in The Washington Post. It says, "In his efforts to remake higher education in Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis has signed laws that alter the tenure system, remove Florida universities from commonly accepted accreditation practices, we'll get into that, and mandate annual viewpoint diversity surveys from students and faculty."

Now, this is already facing a legal challenge, it's in court this week, which is one of the news hooks here. I wonder if anybody's listening right now, either who teaches at Florida State or the University of Florida or anywhere else in that system, and actually has a personal stake in this either for your career or just for what you think is right in terms of higher education. Any Florida faculty members listening right now, 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Or anyone in higher ed anywhere, faculty, students, administrators, college presidents from anywhere.

Welcome to call in with what you think the implications of this from Florida might be nationally. Because again, that's part of the premise of the article is to read again from the subhead. Some experts say the changes affecting state universities are a sign of things to come nationally. What would you ask in a Viewpoint Diversity Survey at your college or university? 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. I think we have Lori back on a more stable line now. Lori, are you there?

Lori Rozsa: I am here. Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Good. You were going to tell us how the state of Florida plans to monitor what individual faculty members teach or assign in their classes that would conform to the so-called Stop WOKE Act as DeSantis calls it.

Lori Rozsa: Yes, and the monitoring, even that is up in the air, they don't really-- but there is one way, and I heard you mention for higher ed, at least, in colleges and universities in the state, this student survey, it was passed in his law in the law that the governor promoted last year, but the surveys just came out a couple of months ago. They're just being promulgated to staff and students now and some of the questions this survey asks students and it's a required survey, it's not optional, is, for example, one question says, "My professors or course instructors are conservative, liberal, other, or don't know." It's asking students to rate the political leanings of their professors.

Of course, keep in mind these are college students. Many of them are going to be freshmen. Some of them may not know. It makes professors understandably uneasy that they're going to be judged by students in ways that they're not even sure the students understand.

Brian Lehrer: Will individual professors be named, or is that survey your impression of your professors generally?

Lori Rozsa: That's unclear too, whether it'll be tied back to the professors, and already there are questions about the way the surveys are being issued because there have been reports from some faculty that they're hearing that students are passing around the URL to people outside the university so they can fill it out. Professors are worried because there's not a lot of clarity. They're worried that they're going to be used as weapons against them that'll be enforced by the state somehow.

Brian Lehrer: That's interesting about sharing the URL. I guess what you're conquering there is an idea that a lot of conserve-- I'm reading into this, but you tell me if I'm reading the right thing into it, that a lot of conservative activists will get the link, fill it out as if they were college students at Florida universities, and say all their professors are liberal so that it looks biased in that direction. Is that what the implication is?

Lori Rozsa: That's one of the fears we're hearing from faculty. It's unclear to us yet exactly how the state is going to manage these surveys, but that hasn't stopped professors from frankly being afraid for their jobs. Especially since the state this year changed tenure. My colleague Susan Svrluga has spoken to academics and others outside the state of Florida who say that they're watching what Governor DeSantis is doing to higher ed very carefully because, in some states where there's a majority of Republican voters, they think it may come their way as well.

Brian Lehrer: Did you say they changed tenure? Does that mean the rules for who can get tenure and who can keep tenure?

Lori Rozsa: Yes, it has to go through different people now and they do change the tenure. They just passed it, that hasn't kicked in yet, and that's part of a lawsuit that would change the way the system works and make it a few more hurdles to go through before tenure is granted.

Brian Lehrer: As I understand it from your article, political appointees would have more say in who gets tenure as opposed to the peer review system that's dominant now. Yes?

Lori Rozsa: Exactly. It would rely more heavily on the board of governors who are political appointees rather than the universities themselves.

Brian Lehrer: People who are concerned about this, do they make the argument that ideological diversity among faculty is not a worthy goal because I'm sure supporters say this is what higher ed is for. Fundamentally, one of the things is to be exposed to different viewpoints about the world and hash them out and learn about the pros and cons and the nuances and the complexities and have debates about what's good and what's bad. Ideological diversity, political diversity, however we want to characterize that diversity of thought, is a good goal. Who would say yes, who would say no in Florida?

Lori Rozsa: Well, especially when you put it that way, which seems to me the proper way to put it, most people would say yes, and the governor would say yes too, and he has said that he is fighting for diversity, but his point of view as he's expressed many times is that there's a lack of diversity that on college campuses in the state of Florida and elsewhere. He says there's woke indoctrination going on that liberal professors are indoctrinating young minds and he wants that to stop.

The problem becomes finding specific examples of what he calls indoctrination, and when I asked his office put out a statement a few months ago citing instances in other states that they consider to be woke in documentation, but not in Florida. In fact, Florida universities, aren't known for their trailblazing liberal bastions. I know the University of Florida, the flagship school in the state, for example, has invited Clarence Thomas to speak at their law school. They had Richard Spencer doing a speech at the campus a few years ago. The examples of this indoctrination going on at Florida college,s we just haven't seen that.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and there's a difference between those two. Clarence Thomas, whatever we may think, anyone may think of his opinions is a United States Supreme Court Justice. Richard Spencer is a racist provocateur, right?

Lori Rozsa: Huge difference between the two. Both were asked to come to the campus, Richard Spencer, by students and the university fought it for a while. Of course, Clarence Thomas Supreme Court Justice, many arguments to be made for having him on campus, and students did protest him. They didn't protest the fact that he was there. They said they just wanted to have their voices heard, that they didn't agree with some of his opinions, but both of those things went on and nobody stopped Clarence Thomas from speaking at the University of Florida.

Brian Lehrer: Kathy in Stratford, Connecticut. You're on WNYC with Lori Rosa, from The Washington Post covering these new rules for tenure and accreditation and viewpoint diversity at state colleges and universities in Florida. Hi, Kathy.

Kathy: Hi. I thank you for taking my call. I just wondered how DeSantis or the government, in general, can impose regulations on the truth, which is taught in rural education and higher institutions, especially. It's not about, although diversity of opinion is wonderful to talk about, how can the truth be regulated?

Lori Rozsa: Well, facts can't be regulated, but facts can be not presented or presented in a way that is shaded one way or another. In K through 12 schools, the governor's office has just instituted what they call civic boot camp that tells the trains teachers how to teach civics, the civics curriculum. The curriculum itself is non-controversial, it's pretty standard across the country.

These new training camps that just started last month in Florida, the state department of education is sending out what they call trainers to tell teachers that they need to emphasize the fact that, for example, there is no real separation of church and state enshrined in the constitution.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Lori Rozsa: What the teachers I've talked to have attended those sessions, which are not mandatory, but they come with either $700 stipend, you could work your way to a $3,000 stipend. Which is a lot for Florida teachers who are still amongst the lowest-paid public school teachers in the country. They're going to these trainings, even though they're not mandatory and what they've told me is that they're huge. Not a huge, but a significant Christian dogma dose overlaying the way they're being taught to instruct students on civics education.

Brian Lehrer: State-sponsored education boot camps, you're saying, right?

Lori Rozsa: Yes. For teachers teaching them how to teach students in civic specifically. One teacher I spoke with, he's been a civic teacher for 20 some years and he said he went and he was just astonished that these trainers are basically trying to-- implying that they're once again, woke indoctrinators and that has to be fixed.

Brian Lehrer: Well, how much of this, and I guess you touch on it just by saying woke indoctrinators is how some people characterize faculty members. How much of this is related to the right-wing moral panic over the teaching of race and identity in history or just in people's contemporary identities. Because, of course, Florida is also the locus of the so-called Don't Say Gay law, which has the premise of protecting young children from being exposed to sexualized content or content about sexuality, even different kinds of families as not age-appropriate. Is there anything that equates to, Don't Say Gay in college, in this?

Lori Rozsa: Not in college. That bill, the Parental Rights in Education bill is the formal name of what most people dubbed the, Don't Say Gay bill, that's a K12 bill. That element has not reached higher education yet in Florida. That bill is specifically aimed for kindergartners through third graders.

Then it's going to go on later to other grades, but they still haven't figured out the language for that yet, but not in colleges yet. It's an overall theme that some teachers and professors feel is the state telling them what they can say and what they can't say. It's coming from people that don't necessarily have a wide worldview.

Brian Lehrer: If they're adding more about the Tulsa massacre Juneteenth in history, just to take two examples that are much more prominently in the mainstream conversation the last couple of years than they were before then suddenly they could be suspected of ideological indoctrination.

Lori Rozsa: Yes, if a student complains to a parent or guardian and that parent or guardian can take some legal action. Now they're enabled by law now to sue a school. The uncertainty is almost making people more fearful than the law itself because they don't know how it's going to be applied or what they can say and what they can't say.

The one thing the governor's been clear on is outlawing the teaching of The 1619 Project. Other than that, it's pretty much up to the teacher's guess to figure out what they can and cannot say and what we're hearing naturally, that many teachers and professors are airing on the side of caution. They're just not going to talk about certain things that they otherwise would have.

Brian Lehrer: Even that, The 1619 Project from the New York Times is, let's say, a take on history. That particular take on history is now being officially centered, you're telling us. Katrina in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Katrina.

Katrina: Hey, how are you? I'll just pick up where you were just talking bout The 1619 Project. I'm a graduate of Florida A&M University, which is a historic Black village in Tallahassee, Florida. There are quite a few other historically Black colleges in Florida. I honestly believe that this law will jeopardize, put at risk, not only the tenured professors but the colleges themselves.

What this law is purporting to do essentially to shut down his historically Black colleges and the curriculum that they teach, which is an inclusive American history curriculum. It includes things like what you just said, Tulsa, the '43 riot in Detroit, everything. It's Black history, it is our history. Honestly, this is not only going to affect that, but even just trying to get funding already at these institutions, is a challenge.

Brian Lehrer: Katrina, can I ask, is the school you went to in Tallahassee? Is that a state college or university?

Katrina: Yes, Florida A&M University is a state college. It's a Black college. It's not a private institution, it's a public institution.

Brian Lehrer: There's another whole layer, Lori and Katrina. Thank you so much for that call. Please call us again. There's another whole layer of this. If they're going to enforce ways of teaching identity that are going to come down from an overwhelmingly white, I presume, administrative bureaucracy under Ron DeSantis on historically Black colleges, like the one Katrina went to, then that's a whole other level of conflict and imposition.

Lori Rozsa: It is, and that's something we're going to be taking a look at is how they hope to, or how the department of education intends to enforce some of this on a college like Florida A&M. There are other HBCUs in the state that I believe Florida A&M is the one that's associated with the university system and under the purse string essentially of Department of Education.

That's a concern, but it is a concern at all of these schools. The governor's staff, by the way, is fairly diverse. The fact that university professors will now have to-- they believe and because the law is vague, but they believe they will have to get approval to teach certain subjects. That will go up ultimately, perhaps to the president of the university who answers to the board of governors, who answers to the governor himself.

Brian Lehrer: Diana in [crosstalk] Yes, there's going to be that political infrastructure. Diana in Toledo, Ohio. You're on WNYC. Hi, Diana.

Diana: Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: You have a story, I see.

Diana: I do. Up until about a year and a half ago, I was a full-time faculty member. I did not have tenure and I taught courses that explicitly dealt with race, gender, sexuality, and social class. I was told over and over again by my state school in Ohio that I had to validate everyone's opinion and some of those opinions were wildly misinformed. I had QAnon adherence in my classes whose ideas would show up in their writing. I had people who came from very homogenous, rural places in the state who said very troubling things about their attitudes and beliefs about race, about sexuality, about gender.

When I asked my students to consider other perspectives or to think about something that the author had brought up that might complicate their answer, a lot of these students got really angry and aggressive and were threatening and intimidating. University did not support me at all. I made the decision to leave the profession because I felt unsafe.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Physically unsafe, as well as professionally unsafe?

Diana: Correct. A lot of students posted things about me online that were not true. There were instances where, especially young men became very aggressive in wanting to challenge me on their performance in the class or their grades when they really have not been doing a lot of the work in the class. I'm an older woman, I have gray hair. I'm out in the classroom, especially when we talk about sexuality and gender and I think in many ways, I was an easy target for some of these students and the university just kept telling me over and over, just make everyone happy. Underneath that, of course, is the goal of retaining students for tuition because of the defunding of public education.

Brian Lehrer: Wow, Diana, that's so disturbing. Thank you very much for that story. Of course, it changes the context that a lot of people might assume underlies this whole topic which is that there's a liberal environment on campus and that the conservative say, isn't enforce liberal orthodoxy. Here's some enforced conservative challenge and how that is rising as a force per Diana's story.

Before we lose Lori Rozsa, in about a minute, I want to get this one more call on here. Bella in Hoboken, who I think has a story as a college freshman that relates to Florida State. Hi, Bella, you're on WNYC.

Bella: Hi, Brian. First-time caller, longtime listener. I'm going into freshman year at Boston University. My first day there during my open house, I spoke with one of the professors. I'm a journalism major, he was giving a journalism presentation and he mentioned that he had left Florida State University a few years earlier because he was a journalism professor there and was told by the administration after a while to just start letting students make things up because there was nothing to report on and he had nothing to give them anymore. They were just making up stories. He left and went to Boston University.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Bella, thank you very much. Lori, I know you got to go in a minute, so if you want to react to that maybe there's a follow-up story for you as a Washington Post correspondent who covers Florida.

Lori Rozsa: Yes, there's so many possible follow-ups but it's just trying to figure out exactly what the goal here is. There's a purported goal to eradicate indoctrination but what even is that? It's so vague and so broad and the uncertainty creates fear and chill. As a reporter, I try to speak to academics a lot and the state university system produces some experts in many fields, for example, in epidemiology. For a while, they were able to talk about how the state was handling COVID but now, a lot of folks will not talk to the press anymore at least on the record because they're afraid of losing their job. They're afraid of retaliation from Tallahassee.

That's the atmosphere that I'm sure many other states do not want to import from Florida because that's the atmosphere that academics are feeling in this state.

Brian Lehrer: Stories from our callers, Katrina in Harlem, Diana in Toledo, Bella in Hoboken there, that can make your head explode. Our guest has been Lori Rozsa who covers Florida for The Washington Post. Her article, In Florida, DeSantis's plans for colleges rattle some academics, some experts say the changes affecting state universities are a sign of things to come nationally. Lori, thanks for coming on with us.

Lori Rozsa: Thanks a lot, Brian. I appreciate it. Have a good day.

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