Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. On September 11th, 2001, that's 20 years ago next week, members of Al-Qaeda attacked the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and other targets inside the United States. You know that. Less than a month later, on October 7th, 2001, President George W. Bush made this announcement.

President George W. Bush: On my orders, the United States military has begun strikes against the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camps and military installations of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. These carefully targeted actions are designed to disrupt the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations and to attack the military capability of the Taliban regime.

Brian Lehrer: President George W. Bush announcing the beginning of the war on October 7th, 2001. Here is Secretary of State Antony Blinken yesterday.

Secretary of State Antony Blinken: A new chapter of America's engagement with Afghanistan has begun. It's one in which we will lead with our diplomacy. The military mission is over. A new diplomatic mission has begun.

Brian Lehrer: The war in Afghanistan, as far as the US is concerned, is over. Now, before we bring in our guest, New Jersey Congresswoman and former Navy pilot, Mikie Sherrill, here's another clip of President Bush just after he announced those first air strikes.

President George W. Bush: At the same time, the oppressed people of Afghanistan will know the generosity of America and our allies. As we strike military targets, we will also drop food, medicine, and supplies to the starving and suffering men and women and children of Afghanistan.

Brian Lehrer: Again, President Bush on October 7th, 2001. We have yet one more clip of Bush from that speech that we'll play in a couple of minutes, you'll hear why, but with us now is New Jersey Congresswoman and former Navy pilot, Mikie Sherrill. She was in the Navy from 1994 to 2003. That included September 11th and that George W. Bush speech. Congresswoman Sherrill is a Democrat from New Jersey's 11th congressional district, covering big circle, a little bit west of New York City with Parsippany, Smack Dab in the Middle, parts of Morris, Essex, Passaic, and Sussex counties.

She's a member of the House Armed Services committee, as well as the Science, Space and technology committee, and the Education and Labor committee. Congresswoman Sherrill, thanks for coming on on this historic day, even if bittersweet, and welcome back to WNYC.

Congresswoman Sherrill: Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Would you like to start perhaps by just thanking and honoring the more than 2,300 American men and women who died in this mission these last 20 years, including the final 11 men and 2 women who were killed in the suicide bombing at the airport last Thursday?

Congresswoman Sherrill: I certainly would, because as you can imagine, here in my district, which you described very well, I'm on the eastern edge in Montclair, and if you go up to the reservation, you look down upon New York City. That's where we have our 9/11 Memorial, like just about every town in my district. Some memory of those who died in the Trade Towers.

I just remember those days and weeks and months after 9/11. In fact, I remember the fear that everything could be a terrorist target to the point where I was standing on the battle watch floor, I was stationed in London, at the commander of the US European fleet headquarters shortly after 9/11. I was on the watch floor, the battle watch floors. We were going into Iraq and I was standing with my commander who was from Memphis. He said, "My mom just called me and she's scared to death." She said, "Bobby, they have the brand-new library that they built in Memphis in downtown Memphis, and I think that would be a really important terrorist target." Just to show you how broad and widespread the fear was across this country.

To think of the men and women who kept us safe for 20 years so that my kids didn't grow up with that shadow and that fear, it really is incredible to think of how safe we were kept here at home because of the sacrifices and the sacrifices of a very, very small part of our population. I was just down talking to our special operators, and my classmates, people I graduated with who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan 7, 8, 9 tours who've spent really years in country. They are just such a debt of gratitude.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, for this segment, I think today we should give Afghanistan war vets, any Afghans who may be listening or Afghan-Americans, and loved ones of Americans who serve there and died their first priority on the phones or any loved ones of Afghans who got killed in the war, also first priority on the phones. If you served in that war, what are you thinking and feeling today now that the last American service people have left.

646-435-7280. Afghanistan war vets, did we accomplish enough there to make you think it was ever worth it? Or for loved ones of Afghanistan fighters listening right now, remember someone who fought and died or otherwise served there or anything else you want to say. Afghans and Afghan-Americans thinking about your country of origin today, and US Afghanistan war vets or loved ones of US service people who died there. 646-435-7280. What are you thinking? Everyone else hang back for now and let those folks have the fun. 646-435-7280 with New Jersey Congresswoman and former Navy pilot, Mikie Sherrill.

Congresswoman, I never like to leave the war dead numbers at the number of American service people. We lost 58,000 or so in Vietnam, but the estimate of Vietnamese people killed was in the millions. For the Afghanistan war, I'm seeing around 70,000 Afghan soldiers or police killed so many more than the number of Americans, and around 70,000 Afghan civilians as well. Even the final us drone strike on that suspect that ISIS suicide bomber and his vehicle in Kabul, just the other day, drew a claim by a family that 10 of their civilian relatives, including six children, were killed in that strike. So far, the Pentagon is not disputing that from what I've seen. How do we begin to pay our respects to all those war dead?

Congresswoman Sherrill: I think that's a great question. I also would include over 3,000, almost 4,000 US contractors killed, which are not included in the service members killed, and then, really the people that I know that have been through such trauma that they can really no longer participate in their lives. Who've left their families. Some are homeless, some are facing substance abuse issues.

The toll is really far higher as you just indicated, and that is why I think it's so important that we left Afghanistan. There were a lot of claims that we could have held a perimeter around the base, kept people within the perimeter, continued to prop up the Afghan government, but that would include airstrikes against the Taliban and as you mentioned, those airstrikes, as precise as we work to make them, there are too often civilian casualties.

I simply don't think that after 20 years we could remain an occupying force and hope to do better by the government. I think if there was anything we could accomplish militarily in Afghanistan, we did it. We were there for 20 years with the best, most professional men and women, most well-equipped in the world and we did what we could accomplish, but I think as you mentioned, that involved far too many civilian casualties as we went forward to really justify the US military remaining in Afghanistan.

Brian Lehrer: Did all those people we've been talking about die in vain? In the first clip of President Bush that we played, he said, "These carefully targeted actions are designed to disrupt the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations and to attack the military capability of the Taliban regime." Now we know the Taliban is back in power and groups like ISIS-K are apparently roaming free. Did the US accomplish its goals in Afghanistan, even in the narrow terms defined by President Bush way back then?

Congresswoman Sherrill: We certainly rooted out the physical infrastructure of Al-Qaeda and the ability of Al-Qaeda to use Afghanistan as a base to launch attacks against the United States. It's striking to me that in 20 years we have been kept safe here at home. I think some of what we accomplished remains to be seen. Will there be as societal accomplishment there? We have trained thousands of women and girls a lot. They've been to school. One of the evacuations that we helped to assist with was the evacuation of a girls robotics team.

There are many educated women and girls that remain in Afghanistan. Will they be able to take part in society? Will they have that ability now in a way they didn't 20 years ago? I think, like I said, much of that remains to be seen and how that might impact the future of Afghanistan.

I certainly would say that given the situation on the ground 20 years ago, the fact that we had just seen the worst terrorist attack that our nation has ever seen launch from Afghanistan and the government or the leading power there, the Taliban was unwilling to do anything to root that out, I do think we accomplished that. Now, we're working very hard to maintain our intelligence capabilities that are over the horizon capabilities, but I think you can't say that the last 20 years was in vain.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from Summer in Charleston, South Carolina, who says she lived in Kabul for more than five years and worked for USAID, the United States Agency for International Development. Summer, you're on WNYC with Congresswoman Sherrill. Hi.

Summer: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for taking my call. I listened to you for many years around the world and many of those years in Kabul. First, I wanted to thank you for keeping this focused on Afghanistan these last two weeks especially. I feel like we just have hours left in the media. We are being told that the war is over, the longest the American war is over, soldiers have left, but today is just the beginning for many, many people.

Yes, I was in Afghanistan for more than five years. I had lived in central Asia for many years before that. I worked for USAID for one year and then I left to stay and work with civil society and NGOs on the ground. Just really small organizations that are struggling today. I just want to share some of those experiences of those people, because the Afghan voices are often left out of this conversation. I do appreciate some of the Afghan journalists that have been heard, but I think we could all do a much better job because we have invested so much money and time in this country. We have built up dreams and aspirations for an entire generation, and we have left.

I woke up this morning with photos of what was a bustling tailoring workshop in the center of Kabul. An Afghan-American dear friend of mine who has invested 16 years of her life who also fled in a previous and fled from the communists. She went back to Kabul and created this beautiful workshop where men and women came every single day and worked together. They laugh, they drink tea. They made an income for 16 years, a small income, but enough to support their families.

They got very little support from the international community. Today, that workshop is completely empty. It's heartbreaking to see these images, the voices of these friends, the WhatsApp messages that I receive and talking to them, it's despair. Yes, our 20 years is over, but today is a new day for people in Kabul who can't get money from the bank, who don't have money to buy food. The prices for basic goods are through the roof.

It's a new beginning for the Afghans who are arriving in New Jersey around the country. How long will they be stuck on these air force bases or military bases? Will the young children who left school in Kabul and now [unintelligible 00:14:42] in America or arrived in America, will they be going to school? There's a lot of questions that we're not getting very transparent answers from the US government. How long will they be on these bases or will they be sent back because their papers are not processed. We're looking at this very binary.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. We're going to certainly be shifting some of our focus on this show to the resettlement of those refugees in the coming days. I'm curious from your perspective, Summer, if any of what you were just describing from Afghanistan over the last 20 years might have been planted on a somewhat lasting basis. The Taliban is saying that they're not the Taliban of 2001.

Maybe there's enough democratic, small d, impulse that the people have been able to run with for a little while, whether that involves girls' education or anything else, maybe enough economic development through agencies like USAID and maybe others as you worked for that things are going to be better longer term, or do you think that's not the case?

Summer: Well, I think I will repeat and an answer to that question that many have said that we will have to wait and see. Actions speak louder than words. We know that right now there's a large contingency, but a contingency of foreign press in Kabul that is telling us the story. The Afghan press which was a success story the last 20 years, the press school has been largely very much decimated. Many of those people have left.

I do want to say, we often look at this-- I understand why we look at this in the US from such an American perspective. We have a domestic audience to speak to, but I would really love for the listeners to realize that Afghanistan is a country that has existed for many, many years long before America even was created. This was a country that had, despite what our president told us that this country has never been united and it's a warring country of warring tribes, this is not true.

They were united for many years. Kabul was known as the Paris of the East. You had very educated women and men long before America arrived. I don't want the story to be that just because we were there for 20 years, there is this small d ethos. That existed before, and I think it's very important for the respect of the Afghans to keep that in mind.

Yes, I think people, the messages I received, we shared a message of one of these male tailors crying, saying, "The women, they came to collect their machines two or three days ago when the workshop was closing." They said that the women want to work if the Taliban will let them. We want to maintain this community. It's a small glimmer of hope, but we don't know. There's no way to get money to them right now.

One of the strongest women that I know who run this workshop, she ran small scale tailoring scheme during the Taliban. She would travel around Kabul collecting small items. We've heard these stories before. She's not the only one, but she's the one that I know that is very strong to continue some small amount of livelihoods. Yes, of course, we're all humans. We all at the end of the day wake up and need to feed our children or our neighbors or friends, and want them to go to school and be happy and laugh at the end of the day. Of course, that is the human quality.

It's not just because America went to Afghanistan and planted the seeds of democracy. These are some of the strongest people that you will meet. They've been failed. I've had another message from a dear friend who said, "It was all fake. For 20 years, it's fake. They came in and, and said, "We have all of this money," and now, do you think any of those ambassadors or diplomats call these people who they visited their restaurants and shops and tailoring workshops to buy souvenirs? We've been working for 11 days nonstop trying to evacuate people."

Brian Lehrer: Summer, before we bring Congresswoman Sherrill back in to the conversation, what would you tell her that the US government should do now? Were you able to hear that, Summer? Do we still have you?

Summer: I lost you just when you said what would you tell her for the US government.

Brian Lehrer: To do now? That's my question.

Summer: I think that we have a lot of focus on-- again, this is very binary on the success story of how many people we've taken out of Afghanistan. I have a lot of thoughts on that, but not enough time to get to that. The numbers have not transparent at all in terms of how many people we brought out. That to me is not necessarily a success. If people wanted to leave, yes. No one truly wants to leave their country.

Those people are here or they're in Rwanda or they're going to Somaliland or they're in Albania or Kosovo. Many countries in holding. We all know how long it takes for the US government to process. I want to have transparency. I want to know, how long are these Afghan families going to be on military basis? What are they eating? Are they eating MREs? Are they getting education? We know that our refugee resettlement has-

Brian Lehrer: Taking care of all those families.

Summer: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Summer, I've got to go. I appreciate all the points that you've made and the stories that you've told. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your service in Afghanistan through USAID. Thank you for calling. Please call us again.

Summer: Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you to the Congresswoman as well.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Sherrill, there's a lot to react to there, pick your spot.

Congresswoman Sherrill: Sure. I think voices like Summer's are so important because we do hear-- I'm on the House Armed Services Committee. I'm a veteran. I hear a lot from our military community. I think those voices on the ground are critically important. I have to say, some of what Summer was saying was great about the resilience of the Afghan people. I would say that there's not a suggestion that simply the US came in and brought democracy to Afghanistan without any seeds of resilience and a great society there, but let's not forget that 20 years ago, life for women in Afghanistan was among the worst in the world.

The images out of Afghanistan, the Taliban, really people describing it as 15th century, women who could not leave their homes without a male relative. If they didn't have one, even possibly starving and not able to have any livelihood. It was really, really horrific. Young girls not being able to go to school. What I think the US did for 20 years was to create, in certain spaces, especially Kabul, an ability for women to take part in society openly.

To have those tailor shops as we heard about. For young girls to go to school. I totally agree with Summer. We'll see if there is an ability how oppressive society is, or if there's an ability for those women who will keep, I'm sure, finding space for their families to thrive in some way, but can they thrive in the open? Can they have those open businesses? Can they take place in the dialogue? Can they take part in elected office? Can they really be a part of society in a way they weren't 20 years ago?

I'm very hopeful that that's the case. I'll say, to the idea that it was all fake, that is certainly not how our military feels. I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to who deeply believe and know that their life was saved by their driver or their translator. They were the first to say, "We've got to do more to help people to evacuate people." They've been in constant contact with so many of them trying to get their information to the state department. I know this because I have friends who are working very hard. I know this because I've been in contact with Afghans on the ground as well as our military, and I have had other veterans constantly calling my office to advocate for their friends there.

There are these deep ties with our military and friendships and support that they've developed. There are men and women who have spent much of their life in Afghanistan and have those kinds of ties. I think what we heard there was, how some people were able to flourish. Now we are entering a new phase. I will say that the plight of women has been particularly a concern of mine given the situation 20 years ago, given the ideology of the Taliban. That's why under the previous administration, I continued to ask, what is the plan for women and girls under this administration as the evacuation started?

I was pushing very hard to make sure women leaders and girls were taken-- who had really put a target on their heads by being so involved in society and so out front. What was our situation for them? What was our plan to help and support them? I think now that we have entered this new phase, as we are talking about moving forward, I know the Taliban wants to be recognized. I know that they want different things, keep their airport open. I think what should be front of mind for us is, are they recognizing human rights? Are they moving towards elections? Are they allowing free passage of people out of Afghanistan? These are the levers we need to be pushing as the standard bear of democracy.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill, and more of your calls, stay with us.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC with New Jersey Congresswoman and former Navy pilot, Mikie Sherrill, a member of the Armed Services Committee among other things. Here's that one more clip, I promise to president Bush from that October 7th, 2001 speech announcing the first air strikes in Afghanistan. You'll hear why we're playing this.

President George W. Bush: The name of today's military operation is Enduring Freedom. We defended not only our precious freedoms, but also the freedom of people everywhere to live and raise their children free from fear.

Brian Lehrer: It's cringe-worthy at this point to hear him say Operation Enduring Freedom, and we were talking about a lot of the reasons why with that last caller who worked for USAID. No two wars are the same or the reasons for them, but are there biggest lessons for you for future decision-makers in your opinion, from the decision to go to war in Afghanistan, the way it was fought or the way it ended?

Congresswoman Sherrill: Brian, something that has occurred to me for many years is, it seems unfortunate that this country learns lessons and then we have to relearn the lessons. They don't seem to stick for too long. I say that because I think after Vietnam, we learned that we needed to have a mission. We needed to have a defined mission, complete that mission and an end. There needed to be that definition, which was really lacking in Vietnam. I think you saw that understanding in the first Gulf war. There are many who were frustrated with the first President Bush saying that he should have done more, killed Saddam Hussein at that time, but we had a very defined mission.

We completed that mission and we left. I think that if you are going to have a military engagement that does not last for 20 years and does not leave a sense by many people that we have unfinished business there, that is a well-defined, well done military mission and men and women in our military like to complete their mission. I think that that's a lesson that we need to explore.

With respect to Afghanistan, how did we get to a point where we entered into war and for three presidents, we couldn't seem to get out of it? There were different inflection points especially killing Osama bin Laden that seems like a time that we could have made a different choice, but for whatever reason, that choice just seemed untenable to former president. I think now we have ended and there, and there will, I believe, a discussion going forward about how we enter into wars, and then how we are planning even from the first minute we fire a shot, how we are planning to end that war and complete the mission.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, and I know you got to go in a minute and we're going to take some more calls after that. Derek who served in Afghanistan, we see you, you'll be next. How do you think people should view the airlift of the last two weeks with the chaos and desperation and deaths surrounding it, but also more than 120,000 people evacuated most of them Afghans who wanted to get out?

Congresswoman Sherrill: It was one of the most complex missions a modern military has done. It was done with an incredible amount of grace and courage by our service members. I think the military knew how dangerous an evacuation like that or what we call a retro grade is. As you can imagine, as you were pulling out, your forces on the ground gets thinner and thinner and thinner, and that becomes the most dangerous part of the mission. We saw the devastating consequences of that with the service members who gave their lives to help thousands of escapes. I think that the actual evacuation, that part and the way the military did it, was an incredible feat and very honorable. I know we're all very grateful to them.

I do have grave misgivings about the people that still remain in Afghanistan who want to leave about their safety and security. I think we've entered, as Summer said, again, a new phase, and we really have to now work to understand the levers that the United States has to try to force better behavior by today's Taliban, than the Taliban of 20 years ago and that's what our diplomats will be exploring. That's what Secretary Blinken was talking about.

I'm not sure all of our military missions will be over. It depends on how the diplomatic missions go as to what we'll have to do to evacuate people. That said, I think it's critical that our diplomats really work incredibly hard to come to those agreements that are going to best support the people that are still in Afghanistan, help them leave if they so desire, but also hopefully support a better path forward for the Afghan people.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Sherrill, thanks for your time today.

Congresswoman Sherrill: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Derek in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Derek. You served in Afghanistan, right?

Derek: Yes, I have. Thank you for taking my call. Well, my statement, I guess, and I guess I'll try to tread lightly as an enlisted soldier as far as my opinion goes. I understand we're not paid to think as they say. In my experience overseas in Afghanistan in 2005, 2006, from my understanding from what they got us, I guess, pumped up for when we went overseas and things like that was America was assaulted or weapons of mass destruction. You're here to fight a greater good for America and things of that nature. That's great.

When you first go over it, you're pumped for that, but just over time you start to really think like-- Our mission there was to train the ANA, the Afghan National Army, and you work with these guys and you see they're so undisciplined, they can just go in and out of the military as they please. They were very young. Then you really started think like any kind of incident that you got into outside of base, they never really wanted to help you distinguish or get out of that situation. I always used to think, "What are we doing here?"

Brian Lehrer: Can I ask you, Derek, if that was the attitude that you encountered on behalf of Afghan National Army members, why do you think that was the case? Did they not feel that something important was at stake for them in defending their government, their country against the Taliban?

Derek: Exactly. I think that being so they were very young. From my understanding they had no age limits. We would have very young kids in there. You could look in their face and tell, "You got to be no more than 15, 16." I don't know how serious they took it, if they thought we were just going to be there forever, or what, but they never trained seriously enough to take the rank themselves from my perspective just as an enlisted soldier. I don't want to step out of bounds. Just things that I observed myself.

Then when you're there, you're in it. You have to have your mind fully in country just to make it home. When you get back home to America, you're thinking, you see other generations of soldiers go over there and you think, "What's all this for?" Like I say, I want to tread lightly. I respect the gains and the progress made for women in that country. In my generation of that conflict, it was just mainly weapons of mass destruction. I was early in that. Now it's the progression of women. It wasn't that, so I do respect that and I understand those gains. Just for the original purpose of us being there, why we were there in the first place, I feel like it was for nothing.

Brian Lehrer: To get Al-Qaeda, right? To get Osama bin Laden and his people out of the cave so they couldn't attack the US again.

Derek: Right. In my generation, that was the goal. I think that, yes, true, we got Osama Bin Laden, if that was the goal, then I guess maybe in America's eyes we succeeded. I as a trip on the ground just never really saw a clear goal. It was just train these soldiers, you go out on missions, if anything happens while you're out, you take care of it and you take care together, US Afghan forces, but it never was that. It was just US forces and so that was that. It seemed to be the same way all the way up until recent.

Brian Lehrer: Yet 70,000 Afghan army members or total army members and police died during this period. Got killed in battle, apparently. 70,000 put their lives on the line with the ultimate sacrifice.

Derek: Right. Not even including the-- as we spoke before, the U S soldiers. As a troop, you're there on the strength of, "This is for America," but I say 20% of that is where this for America. 80% of that is for that person next to you, is for your battle buddy, you don't want to let them down. I've seen soldiers that's got an injury and say, "Hey, you may not come back out," and they have been devastated that they cannot come go back out with our guys. It's almost-- not a shame because you're injured. It's almost like, "I want to be there with them so let's get through this together." That's what I experienced during my time there.

Brian Lehrer: Derek, I've never served, but I've heard that from so many people who have served that the overall mission is a motivator, yes, but when you're there, especially if you're on the frontline somewhere, you're doing this for the people you're with, you're protecting the people you're with and they're protecting you and that starts to rise above all else for obvious reasons. Derek, thank you so much for your call. I really appreciate it. Thanks for your service. Call us again.

Derek: Thank you. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: One more on this before we turn the page for today. Like I told the caller from USAID, we will definitely follow the treatment now and the progression and resettlement of all these thousands of Afghan refugees in the coming days. Job one for the US was getting them out, but now here are all these human beings, here all these individuals, all these families living on US military basis for the moment and other very temporary quarters. What about them? What about their health? What about their children's schooling, et cetera, et cetera, where are they going to live?

Some of them in our area, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut area, many of them elsewhere and we will definitely be following that, but one more caller. Samir in Bergen County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Samir. I'm sorry to say we have about two minutes for you.

Samir: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I just want to say thank you for all the service members who served over there in Afghanistan and thank you for Congresswoman Sherrill for her thoughts as well. I am a B-side kid like yourself, Brian. I went to PS 188 in elementary school. That's when 9/11 happened. I was in fifth grade. My teachers were crying. I remember even seeing some smoke in the sky. I was born and raised in Queens. My parents are from Kabul, born and raised, and they came here in the late or mid-'80s.

I have a unique perspective. I will say that throughout the years I didn't know what was really going on with the war as I was growing up because you're just a kid. I would say, when Osama bin Laden got killed that's when my real attention came and I started to look into it for myself. I would ask questions from my parents. I'd always get a not sufficient response from my parents. They're not educated. My mom and dad were in business over there and then when they came here, they continued that.

I will say to this, Brian, I wanted to just say dinner table conversations and traditional Afghans-- Today I'm married. My wife's Afghan. My was actually born there. Also, I would say, a product of Soviet invasion and her family migrated to New York as well. I will say this, that what we talk about here is why are the wrong people backed? From Hamid Karzai to Ashraf Ghani to even Zalmay Khalilzad, which was the Special Envoy leading the Qatar and Doha discussions by the US.

These guys have no popularity amongst the Afghans living in Kabul and Afghanistan more broadly and abroad. They have no standing, and we saw it, they were corrupt. Ashraf Ghani was reportedly left with $130 million to $180 million in cash, he just left. That's fact-based, you guys could look it up. It's really disappointing. Just seeing why these guys are backed by the US government, and then when they leave, they get to live in Virginia and they get to live with all these assets.

The US doesn't even go after them to sanction or freeze their assets. Has the US gone after Ghani to freeze his assets? I don't think so. The point is, guys like Ahmad Shah Massoud, who's a champion, his posters and pictures are all of Kabul, service members know it. We all know it. Anyone who's a little bit more discerning will know this. Ahmad Shah Massoud, his son right now is fighting for Panjshir province. He's trying to keep that from Taliban invasion and no one's backing him. That's one thing.

The other thing really quick, I don't want to take too much more time, but you raise the question, what would you tell the US government to do now? The answer is simple. Sanction. Sanction the right people and sanction the people who back the Taliban. Unfortunately, I don't have a very positive outlook. I don't think a lot of Afghans in the US do when it comes to the Taliban. Women's rights and children, they're going backwards in that country. I have my wife's uncle lives in Kabul. He had his daughters, his three daughters, made them cut their hair short and start to get traditional Afghan boy clothes so that they can start to go to the grocery-

Brian Lehrer: You mean like to sneak into school? To pretend they were boys. You said so they could go to the grocery store. Even go to the grocery store.

Samir: Exactly, right. I'll pause there. Sorry, but I don't want to take too much time- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Samir, thank you so much for your call. It's very instructive for a lot of people who don't have the firsthand connection to this that you do and please keep calling us.

Samir: Thanks.

 

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