Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We will get two perspectives on the Middle East to begin the program today. Tater this hour, the Palestinian Jordanian American journalist and College Professor, Rami Corey, first Brooklyn and Manhattan Congressman Dan Goldman, who will join us in just a minute. Goldman, as some of you know is in Israel when the attacks by Hamas began over the weekend. He will tell us that story, but also talk about policy responses as he sees it, the range of policy responses that are possible or preferable by the United States.

I can give you this program note now, which is that we will carry President Biden's statement or speech- we'll see how long it is to the nation regarding the Israel-Hamas War. That's scheduled for one o'clock this afternoon by the White House, and we will carry it. We also can take your phone calls, listeners, and I know this is personal to many people in our area, many people with ties to Israel in our area, many people with ties to Palestinian communities in our area.

Listeners, if you know anyone in Israel or anyone in Gaza who's been killed or injured or is suffering- I guess they're all suffering, even if they're not very directly affected- feel free to call in, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Tell the story of anyone you know who's over there, or say what you think can be done to end the violence with security and justice, or win the freedom of the hostages, or ask Congressman Dan Goldman a question 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Congressman Dan Goldman does join us now. Congressman, it's horrible that it's under these circumstances, but welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Dan Goldman: Thanks very much, Brian. Good to be with you as always.

Brian Lehrer: Can you tell your constituents and other listeners, first of all, where you were, and why, and what it was like for you and your family when the attack began?

Congressman Dan Goldman: Sure. We had a family trip planned for a bar mitzvah of a cousin of ours last week, and we were in Tel Aviv toward the end of the trip. I actually missed the bar mitzvah in Jerusalem because of the shutdown and other obligations in DC, but I met my family in Tel Aviv, and we were awoken on Saturday morning at 6:30 by the bomb sirens that Israelis are all too familiar with that go off when rockets come in from Gaza, and we were jolted awake. I pulled my three kids together and we had 90 seconds to get to the internal stairwell, which is the shelter in a large hotel like that We stayed there for 10 minutes or so, and then went back to our room, but did that several more times in the morning as Hamas raid paraded thousands of rockets into Israel, including at Tel Aviv, 40 miles away from Gaza.

Brian Lehrer: How did you get out of the country?

Congressman Dan Goldman: Well, after I realized what was going on, I jumped on the LL website and got five tickets. Very lucky that they were available for Sunday. It's a real concern right now. El Al is the Israeli National Airline, and it's the only airline running in and out of Israel right now. We're very well aware there are thousands of Americans trying to get out. We're working with the State Department and with the domestic airlines to see what we can do to try to help get Americans who are stranded there out and back home.

Brian Lehrer: How old are your kids, and how do they deal, and how are they dealing with what they went through and what they just experienced?

Congressman Dan Goldman: It was my three youngest kids who were with us, nine, six, and five. They're dealing with it differently, as you might imagine, because of the different ages. The nine-year-old understands it and is quite traumatized by it. She had real difficulty sleeping Saturday night. She didn't understand why it was happening and why we couldn't leave. It's been still difficult for her when we're back. Last night, as an example, she woke with a fright when the garbage trucks outside started beeping with the siren type of beeping. We're still dealing with it.

The other kids don't fully understand. My son is six; thinks it's a sports game and keeps asking which team is winning. It's very difficult. These are life lessons that unfortunately Israeli children grow up with, but I certainly had hoped not to have to explain to my kids at this young age.

Brian Lehrer: One of the biggest challenges and outrages now is the continued holding of hostages by Hamas, including women and children and other civilians, and the threat that's been reported to kill them when Israel takes various actions. What's your understanding of the extent of or status of Israeli hostages now?

Congressman Dan Goldman: This is, as you point out, the most concerning issue right now, some of the stories that continue to come out about babies being beheaded and all sorts of just horrific, horrific actions of Hamas terrorists raping women right next to corpses in the fields where the concert was. Just awful things. You know what? The announcement that Hamas made, and I think this is important for everyone to understand, said that if civilians are killed, "without prior warning" then they will take those actions.

Israel makes it a habit, and they have gone to great lengths to notify all civilians when they are intending to bomb or destroy particular buildings that have Hamas infrastructure, terrorist infrastructure. I want everyone to be aware that "without prior warning" is carrying a lot of weight here. This must not be a pretext to engage in the kind of brutal ISIS-style video beheadings that became all too familiar to many of us over the last number of years.

If it is a pretext, then the world needs to react accordingly. It is inhuman, it is barbaric, it is savage what they have done and what they are threatening to do. We have to recognize that this is a terrorist organization just like Al-Qaeda, just like ISIS that needs to be eliminated.

Brian Lehrer: One thing on the difference that you were describing between no warning to civilians and the Israeli government giving warning to civilians, I've seen it reported that, yes, Israel tells the people of Gaza to evacuate or evacuate certain areas, but because of the nature of the borders there, there's nowhere for them to go. Is it a real warning?

Congressman Dan Goldman: Well, they are told to evacuate specific buildings and not to evacuate the entire territory, but I know that the IDF is trying to establish evacuation locations. I think it's very important that Egypt, in particular, recognizes what's going on, and since it shares a border with Gaza, that Egypt gets involved to provide refugee camps and space for Gazans, innocent civilians who should not be involved in this in any way, shape, or form, to be able to leave the region that is controlled by this brutal terrorist regime.

Brian Lehrer: One thing on the hostages, there's always a policy dilemma in dealing with hostage takers; negotiate with them for the sake of those individuals who are being held or refuse to negotiate and risk the hostages lives because giving the captors anything in exchange and encourages more hostage-taking in the future because it pays off. Do you have a position on the best approach in this situation?

Congressman Dan Goldman: I don't have a defined position, and I think every situation is different. This is unprecedented. The number of hostages that were taken, the ages from children to Holocaust survivors, it's something that we have not dealt with before. Hamas is well known to use its own civilians as human shields and certainly, I expect that they would try to use these hostages as human shields to prevent further attacks from Israel, and I know that's going to be a significant factor that Israel considers as it just moves to dismantle Hamas.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Lacey in Hunter, New York, you're on WNYC. Hello, Lacey. You're on with Congressman Dan Goldman from Brooklyn in Manhattan. Hello.

Lacey: Hi, I have a best friend in Tel Aviv right now, who also has family who was living in Sderot in the south. They were able to, thankfully, leave Sunday night after waiting and make it up to her in Tel Aviv. After speaking with her just an hour ago, she said that they were all told to keep their documents on them in case of a possible evacuation because they're dual citizenship with America. They also were told to just stock up on food and water for a three-day shutdown.

Congressman Dan Goldman: Yes. Look, I think there's a huge effort that's beginning to get underway to identify American citizens who are there, register them with the State Department, make sure that we are tracking everyone who's there, and work to figure out a way to get them out of the country. The problem we have right now is domestic airlines have shut down service to and from Israel, which means El Al is the only airline going in and out of there, and it's just not enough for everyone to get out.

We in Congress are in regular communication with the State Department. I will be reaching out personally to the domestic airlines to see if we can figure out a way for them to resume service so that we can get the Americans who are stranded there out. It's a huge priority right now.

Brian Lehrer: Lacey, thank you for your call, I hope everyone you know is safe. Milt in Bridgewater, New Jersey, you're are on WNYC with Congressman Dan Goldman. Hello, Milt.

Milt: Thank you. I want to try to explain why I'm surprised at my own reaction. I have several family members, and a number of years ago, I had a member of my family murdered by Hamas. There's no question that I'm sad in grief, and struggling with this, and absolutely supportive of a substantial response. I don't excuse Hamas, but I'm talking about my own feelings this time.

It's very interesting that I'm not having, as a Jew, the same tribal feelings about Israel's in danger. Israel is in danger, and I feel horrible about that. I can remember a time when my attachment to the notion of a Jewish state was so profound that it was undoubtedly probably clouded my judgment, and also was sincere. Now I tend to view the whole thing a little bit more geopolitically, which is, again, surprises me.

I'm not excusing any evil, there's so much evil, where it's impossible but I think a lot of it has to do with placing Israel now in the context of, in addition to the Jewish state, in the context of a sovereign nation that has demonstrated certain sorts of political issues and problems and steps away from democracy that I just can't get out of my mind. My feeling is absolutely powerful, but it's not tribal in the way that it has been in the past.

Brian Lehrer: Milt, thank you.

Milt: [crosstalk] I'm sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. You can finish that thought?

Milt: Oh, yes. It's just strange to think of Israel in a geopolitical sense for the first time and in a political sense, but not to excuse--

Brian Lehrer: Your feelings about what the Netanyahu government has been doing recently and also the occupation, I think is what I hear you're saying, right?

Milt: Exactly, but it doesn't lessen my outrage and absolute support for a massive, even brutal response.

Brian Lehrer: Milt, thank you very much for your call, we really appreciate it. Congressman, I think he probably articulates a range of feelings that coexist within other individuals in difficult ways, like for him. In fact, I was going to cite to you a Gallup poll in March that found for the first time Democratic voters, that is Democratic Party voters in the United States side more with the Palestinians than the Israelis in their long conflict.

The wording of the question was, "In the Middle East situation, are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?" In March of this year, 49%, said the Palestinians, 38%, said the Israelis, and that's different than in the past. In 2019, with that same poll question, it was about 50% Israelis, just 30% Palestinians. It's been narrowing ever since and this year, the line's crossed. that, of course, was before this attack by Hamas, that might change it again. Is the National Democratic Party from President Biden to most of Congress, including you, too dismissive for even your own voters now of the Palestinian's concerns, despite the crackdowns and settlements and anti-democratic moves of the Netanyahu government and other things in this era, and again, as Milt was saying, not to excuse any of the horrors of these terrorist attacks?

Congressman Dan Goldman: Yes, Brian, it's a great question, and I think that it's very important to put everything in context. There is no question that this government, under Prime Minister Netanyahu, has really attacked the democratic values that Israel is so well known for, is so well respected for, and is the true cause of our alliance with Israel. I and others in the Democratic Party have spoken out very aggressively against those attacks on democracy.

We also, of course, face attacks on democracy here at home. We don't take that out on the American government, and its structure, and its country as a whole. We try to use our voices to stress the importance of restoring democracy and the rule of law. That's also what we need to do with Israel, we need to be speaking out as the protesters have been doing there in drones.

Those issues in terms of the settlements in the West Bank and the expansion of settlements, which I oppose, is very different than what happened this weekend. Hamas is a terrorist organization that executed one of the most horrific terrorist attacks in history. When Milt talks about feeling an identity, a Jewish identity, we have to remember that Hamas' sole goal, and its stated goal, is to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth and to eliminate Jews. This is nothing other than a genocidal effort to remove Jews from Israel and remove Israel from the Middle East.

You have to put it in context because Israel was created in the aftermath of the worst genocide in history, the Holocaust. Everything is put in that framework. I feel very much as do many Democrats, Republicans, Jews, alike for the situation that the Palestinians are in. Part of the reason that they are in this situation is that Hamas is increasingly in control over them. Rather than use economic support that they have gotten from Israel, from others, to build out the infrastructure in Gaza, to build schools, hospitals, roads, an economy that can be self-sustaining, they have instead used that money for terrorism, for tunnels, for weapons, for training for horrific terrorist attacks that we witnessed this weekend.

We have to separate the Palestinian people from the terrorist organization, Hamas. It will be ultimately much better for the Palestinian people if they have different leadership that actually cares about their future, their peace, their prosperity, more than just eliminating Jews and the State of Israel from the map. That's why Hamas needs to be eliminated, which ultimately will not only benefit the peace and security of Israel, but will benefit the Palestinian people as well.

Brian Lehrer: Critics will say, but Israel is cutting off food and water and electricity and other fuel to all of Gaza. They would say that in addition to Hamas' war crimes in the murder of innocent civilians and taking of hostages, Israel is committing war crimes with this collective punishment as they characterize it. That, for example, is depriving hospitals of electricity at a time when the war is causing so many injuries. Are both sides now war criminals?

Congressman Dan Goldman: I think everything, again, needs to be put in context. I, we, as Americans must stand with Israel and united with Israel against terrorism. The reality is that Hamas certainly knew what they were provoking with this attack. They knew they were putting their own citizens and civilians in severe danger by executing this brutal terrorist attack. Israel must be able to defend itself. It must be able to target the terrorists to eliminate them so that this doesn't happen again.

Brian Lehrer: Is that targeting, or is that collective punishment?

Congressman Dan Goldman: No, no, it is targeting right now because they need to undermine and eliminate the power and the infrastructure that Hamas can use to continue to fire rockets. However, this is not something that can last for a long period of time. There needs to be an effort to provide humanitarian aid to the civilians in the Gaza Strip. This is a balance that Israel and the international community will have to strike to make sure that they are able to defend themselves and able to take out Hamas while also making sure that innocent Palestinians get the humanitarian aid, the medical aid that they need.

Brian Lehrer: Michael in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Congressman Dan Goldman from Manhattan in Brooklyn. Hello, Michael.

Michael: Hi. I'm a moderate Democrat and I certainly support Israel 100%. I support Ukraine. Here's the problem that I'm having with Democratic Party right now. We know that Gaetz and those guys are crazy, but Gaetz could not have removed McCarthy without Democrats voting with him. The Democrats could have voted present, and 96% of the Republican party caucus would've kept McCarthy in power.

We know that McCarthy took him 15 rounds to get the speakership in the first place. We knew it was going to be chaos if you guys voted with Gaetz instead of just voting present. Now we're in the situation where we don't have a speaker. We have all this important stuff going on in the world, and we know that McCarthy would've delivered on Israel. We know McCarthy voted for the continuing resolution. He got that through.

He would've eventually sorted this out. He would've had to, or you could have always removed him later. He would've eventually gotten the Ukraine funding, even though he took it out of the continuing resolution because the votes were there in the long term. As a moderate Democrat, we know that Gaetz and those guys are crazy, but we don't want to hear where Democrats just keep blaming them because without Democrats voting with Gaetz, you couldn't have removed McCarthy. You could have voted present.

Now, you guys need to think three steps ahead because you removed McCarthy and now what? We know that it's going to be a mess for those guys. I have a potential solution, but you guys, you can't just keep blaming the Republican--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead with your potential solution, but briefly, okay?

Michael: Sure. Sorry. 126 Republicans voted for the continuing resolution. Those are the guys that you have to target, the men and the women in the Republican Party that you have to target and say, "Look, we're in a crisis. We need to work together." Get 110 Republicans with 110 Democrats, form some kind of moderate coalition if it's at all possible- again, 126 Republicans voted for their continuing resolution- and try and form a moderate group who can sideline the extremists on both sides. We don't have time for this nonsense anymore. Sorry to be frustrating. Sorry, I'm so frustrated, but that's the way I think a lot of moderates in this country feel at this point.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, thank you very much, Congressman.

Congressman Dan Goldman: Michael, I appreciate the sentiment. I have a couple of responses. First of all, there are a lot of assumptions that you're making about what Kevin McCarthy would do. If you look at his track record in this Congress, he has not made a single effort to work across the aisle with House Democrats in any way, shape or form. Even when he did reach a bipartisan deal to lift the debt ceiling with the White House and Senate Democrats, he then immediately went back against his own deal that 147 Republicans, including him, voted for.

He has proven both to be untrustworthy and he's not a good faith partner in any kind of legislating. There has only been one occasion in recent history when a member of one party voted for a member of another party for speaker. It just doesn't happen. That's not the way the house works. You win the majority, you select the speaker and you control everything. It's different than the Senate.

Kevin McCarthy, in order to become Speaker of the House, changed the rules from what the democratic rules were in the last two congresses, to allow for a terrorist like Matt Gaetz to hold him hostage and to potentially move to vacate him. It only requires one. That is their rules. That is what they passed. We all voted against those rules, all of us Democrats.

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in because I know we're going to run out of--

Congressman Dan Goldman: Let me just finish one thing, Brian, go, if I could, because I think there's a lot of sentiment that, oh, the Democrats should join with the moderate Republicans. We would be eager to do that. We don't control what happens in the House, but we welcome that Hakeem Jeffries, our leader, wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post this week asking moderate Republicans to form an enlightened bipartisan coalition with Democrats to do the people's work to get rid of the power of the extremists on the right.

We welcome that, but we cannot force that on moderate Republicans. They have to be willing to do it. Kevin McCarthy did not even come to us in terms of the continuing resolution. He thought we were going to vote against it. He did not even allow us 90 minutes to read the bill. Then he blamed us for trying to shut down the government. He was not trying to partner with us. He was surprised that we actually voted to keep the government open.

I'm not sure why he was surprised. Essentially, the bill was exactly what the Senate clean resolution was. We don't have good-faith partners across the aisle, and we cannot force them to do anything when they are in the majority.

Brian Lehrer: Looking forward now, can you see any scenario where any Democrats vote for any Republican speaker candidate with some kind of deal for a rules change to give the most radical right-wing faction, less power to remove a speaker? Minority leader, Jeffries was on the show yesterday and floated the idea, but I don't know if any Republican would make such a deal. Do you have a take?

Congressman Dan Goldman: We welcome it. That's what I keep saying. There are a lot of moderates who I hear from who seem to blame the Democrats for removing Kevin McCarthy. We were not in control, but the Republicans were.

Brian Lehrer: I'm just asking you, going forward, do you see the Democrats having any role here with--?

Congressman Dan Goldman: Well, that's my point, Brian, is that we are open to it, but they need to make the overture to us. We cannot force it upon them because they control the House. Yes, Democrats would be eager to partner, to change the rules, to form a coalition bipartisan government to actually get the work done that the American people sent us there, not to be held hostage by the extremists on the right. It is the Republican Party that has allowed themselves to be held hostage. Until they come to us and try to work out some sort of a deal, there is nothing that we can do.

Brian Lehrer: One more call for you, and back to the Middle East. Aziz in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Aziz.

Aziz: Hello. Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: Good morning.

Aziz: Well, I've been watching the media these days and I can see the hypocrisy of the media. The hypocrisy of even your show, Brian Lehrer, you always bring a pro-Israeli voice, never a pro-Palestinian voice since I start listening to your show.

Brian Lehrer: Our next guest is a Palestinian journalist.

Aziz: Wait, wait , I got a few [unintelligible 00:29:15]--

Brian Lehrer: I'm just letting you know what we're doing on the show right after your call, but go ahead.

Aziz: Well, I never heard a pro-Palestinian voice in your show.

Brian Lehrer: Then you haven't been listening.

Aziz: Never. Well, I've been. I want to say everybody act like this thing started like 48 hours ago. No. It started more than 76 years ago. Palestinians have been occupied, killed by Israelis every day just like what happened on Saturday, but not a single day that the media talks about that, or Mr. Congressman over here talks about that.

I want to ask the congressman; you said you went to Israel. Have you ever been to Gaza? Have you ever visited people, how they live out there? I want to ask you again, don't the Palestinian people have the right to exist? Don't the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination? Why is it whenever Israel people are being killed, which is sad and I do not stand for it, are always the people, the victim, and they're the occupying force for the Palestinians who don't even have nothing, no freedom, dying every day? You don't hear one congressperson talks about it, but when one Israeli is being killed, everybody's crying. The whole media covers it.

Just last year, a Palestinian journalist by the name of Shireen, and she's an American too, has been killed by an Israeli soldier. Nobody talks about that, not even the congressman talking right now.

Brian Lehrer: Aziz, I'm going to leave it there, because I know the congressman has to go in a minute. Aziz raises the historical and underlying conditions for this attack from a Palestinian or pro-Palestinian perspective, which is not that acts of terrorism like this against civilians are justified in any way, but they are to be expected, historically, given this kind of occupation. Is he wrong?

Congressman Dan Goldman: He is wrong for a couple of reasons. First of all, this attack this past weekend is very different from the cycle of violence that Aziz refers to, which is devastating to all of the communities, and certainly to the Palestinian communities as well. I think there's a misperception here, especially in Gaza.

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. They withdrew all settlements. They moved everyone out that was Israeli and allowed the Palestinians to govern themselves in Gaza. Hamas took over in 2007, and for the last 16 years, Hamas has been in control of the Gaza Strip. Instead of actually trying to build a self-sustaining society with an economy and government, they have turned to terror and they have focused solely on terror.

When you start hearing people talk about 76 years, what that means, is that they do not believe that Israel has the right to exist. They do not believe that there should be a Jewish state in Israel-

Brian Lehrer: Congressman, don't you think-

Congressman Dan Goldman: -and that is not a belief in a two-state solution.

Brian Lehrer: -don't you think that a lot-

Congressman Dan Goldman: That's not a belief in a two state solution, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: -don't you think that a lot of people do believe in a two-state solution with Israel as a Jewish state, but that the occupation, the way it's been extended and carried out, is unconscionable and leads to the conditions under which a rejectionist group like Hamas would attract supporters?

Congressman Dan Goldman: I wholeheartedly reject the notion that anything that Israel has done to protect itself, to protect its borders from terrorist organizations that surround it and seek to eliminate it, is any justification for the horrific war crimes that were committed this weekend, that the women and children who were killed and kidnapped, there is absolutely no justification for any of that. Nothing Israel has ever done would ever in any way, shape, or form justify the horrific terrorist actions that occurred this weekend. I reject the notion outright that anything that Israel has done warrants what happened.

If we do not, as Americans, condemn terrorism like we have with Al-Qaida after 911, like we have with ISIS, that is what Hamas is. Hamas is a danger to all of this world. It is a terrorist organization. What I hope for more than anything, is that the Palestinians can live side by side with Israel and be a self-sustaining government with a meaningful and robust peace and security for themselves with self-determination. As long as a terrorist organization is in control, that will not happen. That's why the Hamas is not only a danger to Israel, but it is a danger to the Palestinian people as well.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Dan Goldman, Democrat who represents parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan. I'm glad you're back safely, you and your family. Thank you for joining us today.

Congressman Dan Goldman: Thanks so much, Brian.

 

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