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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good Friday morning everyone. If it's Friday it's Ask the Mayor Day. My questions and yours for Mayor Bill de Blasio, coming up next hour. The mayor will be here at 11:30 today. Among our topics, Governor Cuomo keeps relaxing, COVID gathering rules. Something new every day. The mayor thinks he's going faster than what the science tells us is safe and suspects Cuomo is doing it to make people feel good while he's under a cloud of scandal.

That and much more with the mayor coming up, get your questions ready. We'll talk to a doctor from Columbia University who's been treating COVID long haulers and thinks the vaccine might be relieving some COVID long haul symptoms. That is the vaccine, it's doing that. Interesting side effect if true. Anna Sale, host of Death, Sex, and Money, will try to get you involved in her campaign for you to call somebody on the phone next Friday. She's calling it "Pick up the Phone and Call Day." Anna will stop by to explain.

That's all coming up over the next two hours. Right now, we welcome an important voice for New York City and for America. Frank Wu is the president of Queens College, the City University campus in the most diverse county in the United States, with a large concentration of Asian-Americans at a time of the current spike in anti-Asian violence. Now, weeks before the Atlanta mass murder case, President Wu had made news by writing the foreword to the report we discussed here at the time from the Asian American Bar Association of New York, called A Rising Tide of Hate and Violence Against Asian Americans in New York During COVID-19: Impact, Causes, Solutions.

He is also author of the book, Yellow: Race in America Beyond Black and White. We'll also talk to Frank Wu about running a big college during COVID time. Is it spring break yet? As higher ed tries in such a centerpiece role of the remote living and reopening curve to get it right. President Frank Wu, thanks for some time today. Welcome to WNYC. While we were filling some time, and folks, apologies. I hope that was as hilarious for you as it was for me. Can you tell us a little bit of your own story?

While I was filling time, I was filling the listeners in on a little bit of it, but I see from an interview with you in the Queens College magazine, that your parents were both born in Mainland China and raised in Taiwan, and they raised you in the suburbs of Detroit. How did the family wind up there?

Frank Wu: It's a classic American story. The elders sacrificed for the next generation. I was born in the United States and I'm a kid from Detroit. Although I'm a New Yorker who just had to find my way to the city, I suppose. That's actually part of all this. I was saying to my father, he's 85, he lives just outside of Washington DC now. I said to him, "Be careful, don't go to that Asian grocery, there's just too much risk right now. Just stay inside the house."

That's what it's like, because, he could be going about his business, no different than his neighbors, and get shoved to the ground so hard that he breaks bones. He gets stabbed, he gets shot, or called names and spit on. It's not just one or two or three incidents, it's a pattern. We've got viral videos, we've got compelling cases, and the mass murder in Atlanta, Georgia. It makes me think, "How many of these incidents have to occur before other people realize, this is not random, it's a pattern."

I've been working on these issues ever since I was a kid and got teased and taunted on the playground, even though I was no different than any other kid. I just wanted to fit in, but it was the common cruelty of bullying.

Brian: You've said that you were the only Asian-American family in your neighborhood or oriental family, as you remind us the term was then. Now we say Asian-American or AAPI for Asian American and Pacific Islander, but you referred in the Queens college magazine interview to help people say oriental when you were a kid. Why was it good to move away from that?

Frank: Because oriental has this error of exoticism, as if you really belong halfway around the world and to say you're Asian American is to make something as clear as possible to everyone, "Look, I'm an American." The people who are perpetrating these violent attacks, this isn't about citizens and foreigners, it's about the color of your skin. They don't pause and say, "Hey, Before I spit on you, would you show me your passport?"

The issues that my parents as immigrants faced are the same as the issues that I, as a native-born kid from Detroit faced, the same as exchange students. It doesn't matter. The more I try to say I'm an American, sometimes I feel a little silly. "Why do I run around saying I'm an American and yet, people don't believe it?" They say, "Why don't you go back to where you're really from. You're doing better here than you would be there anyway." or they say, "My, you speak English so well." It's just to say, "No matter what, you're still a foreigner."

Brian: Yes, you're still otherwise. I see you were inspired to become a lawyer by an anti-Asian crime before we even use the term hate crime, is what you said. Would you remind us about that case?

Frank: Sure. The attacks we're seeing now, they're not new. They go all the way back to the 19th century, people don't realize there were entire Asian immigrants settlement burned to the ground, and people were lynched and driven out in places like downtown LA. What really got me thinking about this is something that happened right there in my hometown, a guy named Vincent Chin was bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat, the murderers who always admitted, they confessed they did it, but just like we see, again and again, they said, "Oh, but we weren't bigots."

As if that excused them because they never denied they killed this guy. They cracked his head open, literally and the blood, spinal fluid, and cerebral mater pulled down to the pavement beneath him. Even now when I talk about it, you got to choke up a little bit about that. It's unbelievable. He was out for his bachelor's party. He was going to be married. The guests who would have gone to his wedding went to his funeral instead.

What happened here? Those folks, the killers, they were two white men, they were auto workers. That's important because Detroit's the Motor City. This was when Japanese cars first became popular, there was a huge recession, it was terrible, it in 1982. They looked at Chin who was Chinese-American, and they started to use, according to witnesses, those slurs, and they finally, and they used up sandys, things you can't say on the radio. They blamed him for the success of imported cars. This was mistaken identity twice over.

When I was a kid, they always used to say, "You all look the same." Chin was Chinese, not Japanese, he was an American, not a foreigner, he was a working-class kind of guy. No different than his killers. Now, it wouldn't have been [unintelligible 00:07:54] and found some random Japanese foreigner and killed that person. That's still wrong. What's going on here is scapegoating. People are concerned about something.

Right now, it's the pandemic. I get that it's a real problem in the world, but it's caused by a virus, not caused by me, by other Asian-Americans. That's what scapegoating is. You take a real problem, and back then it was the recession, imported cars, people losing jobs, that is a real problem, but then you blame the wrong cause. You take out that anger on somebody who's got nothing to do with it, but because of the color of their skin, the texture of their hair, or the shape of their eyes, they represent Tokyo or Toyota. They represent their orient.

Brian: Listeners, your calls for the president of Queens College, Frank Wu, take two. I think we've chased the gremlins out of the regular call-in lines as well. We'll see if we really did. If you want to call in, 646-435-7280. It can be about Asian-American, anti-Asian-American violence, or other forms of bias. That unemployed college professor from the Bronx who was calling in before to see if Queens College has any openings, you can call back too, [laughs] or anyone else with something relevant for Frank Wu, the president of Queens College, who is also the author of the book, Yellow: Race in America Beyond Black and White.

646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. Can I ask your reactions as a lawyer, as well as a community leader to some of the things we've been hearing? The Cherokee County Sheriff down there, say, since the arrest, he said the suspect has admitted to the murders, said he was not motivated by race, but that they stemmed from his own sex addiction problem. The sheriff said of the suspect, "He was pretty much fed up and had been at the end of his rope and yesterday was a really bad day for him and this is what he did." What do you think about any of that language really bad day for him or not about race or any aspect of it?

Frank: Yes, I'm astounded. It really is unbelievable. It's just so shocking because let's make clear that the killer has confessed. There's no question. He did this, six of eight victims were Asian women. There's race, there's gender, there's all sorts of stuff going on. It's not random. He drove around Asian-owned businesses. He targeted these people. The police spokesman said he had a bad day. That is unbelievable.

Even if you took out anything about race or gender, it's unbelievable. It turns out apparently the same police officer has been posting stuff on social media, just like we've seen so much of about how COVID is the China disease. When it first started, I was on an Amtrak train headed to New York City, and the passenger next to me, this was before the lockdown or anything, didn't want to sit next to me.

Who knows why, but he didn't want to sit next to me. I thought, "Well, maybe he's afraid of catching a disease," but now I realize isn't about catching a disease. It's about blaming people for the disease, whether it's in childish jokes or conspiracy theories. Yet it's so hard, even with this tragedy, eight people dead. This is a mass murder. With all the videos we've seen of people who are shoved to the ground so hard, their bones are broken. Not just people, elderly people. People still want to minimize it. They want to say, "No, this isn't about race. This is an individual, it's not a hate crime." How many of these cases do we have to see? I think there's a reason. It's hard for us to talk about this.

Two reasons. The first is usually when we talk about race, even in New York City, we talk about Black and white. Asian-Americans, they don't fit. They're ambiguous. When you talk about civil rights, you just don't think about Asian Americans. They're sort of an afterthought, but all you have to do is walk down the street and you realize if you only see the world in literally Black and white terms, that picture is not accurate. There are people who are Latino, Jewish, Arab, mix.

There are people who are Afro-Asian. There are people who are Asian and Spanish speaking because their families have roots in South America or they're Asian and adopted. Part of what's hard about this is no one ever thinks about Asian Americans when you talk about race or when you talk about anything. Asian Americans are always sometimes literally they're the Black other. The second reason it's hard to talk about this. We want to make things figuratively Black and white.

We want to be simple. There are villains and there are victims. We want the bigots to be wicked through and through. We want them to stand up and say, "I'm a white supremacist." Sometimes, for the most part, other than people who are really extreme and foolish. We know you have to disavow racism. Even bigots today, most of them don't stand up and say, "That's right, I'm a bigot and I'm going to stab you because I'm a bigot." They stab you and then they say, "Oh, no, that wasn't bigotry. That was just a stabbing." And just somehow they're now excused. What we don't see is that quarreling about whether this guy was racist, misses the point, the consequence is racial.

Can I see into his heart or his mind? No. Do I want to have a giant debate about, is he technically a racist or not a racist? Look, he's a murderer. As it happened, his actions affected one community way more than others. It wasn't random and it comes in this context of so much that's happening even before all of this, people were suddenly becoming aware of. There was a lot of talk about all these attacks on Asian Americans and this is just the ultimate most in-your-face version that I'm just astonished that people still want to write it off or dismiss it.

Brian: The president of Queens College, Frank Wu is our guest. You ready to talk to another native Detroiter? It's Viola in Kew gardens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Viola.

Viola: Hi, how are you. Frank, I loved your story. I was a kid when the Vincent Chin murder happened. It deeply affected me as a Black American. Similarly, I have this strong sense of justice and what's right because of that. I sympathize and I stand with the Asian American community and at the end of the day, it's about humanity. Unfortunately, that gentleman who did what he did basically relinquished his humanity and demonstrates that he doesn't care about the nature of his own humanity. Thank you so much for your story in your words.

Frank: Thank you. What's so important people have asked me, "Well, what should we be doing?" I want to thank you because bridge-building, coming together, we just need that so much. After what happened in Atlanta so many people, I don't mean just a few, I mean so many people, African-American, Latino, Jewish, leaders, colleagues, acquaintances, they've reached out to me to say, "Hey, we're thinking about you and your family, and we want to work together."

I said these incidents aren't new, but the awareness is. Out of this tragedy, I'm hopeful. I believe in the American dream, I believe in these ideals. We can bring people together. One of the saddest aspects of this to me as an American is there are now many Asians, some Asian exchange students, even a few immigrants, who are saying they want to give up on America. That's not worth it. That they don't want to come here or they want to go back. I'll tell you that saddens me as an American because it means that these ideals that I believe in, the ideals that my parents sacrificed for to come to these shores.

They aren't compelling anymore. They don't have that power because some people feel that despite all the principles that we have when we talk about equality and justice, that they're not included. This is so traumatizing in every way. It's traumatizing because there are direct victims who are injured and killed. Then, it's traumatizing again because some people, it's almost as if they want to laugh it off. Then, on top of that, you realize that the core belief that you have, that I'm an American, that this is my homeland. I'm not going back someplace else, it just shakes you.

Brian: Peter in Norwalk, you're on WNYC with Frank Wu. Hi, Peter.

Peter: Thanks, Brian. I wanted to bring up two points here. One, I wanted to talk about an issue that you had mentioned early and built on it about there almost being a double standard. Although I was born and raised in the Northeast, I went to graduate school in Atlanta. In many ways, this really hits close to home as a Korean American. The double standard that I wanted to point out was that good old boy culture they have down South. It's something that I didn't really know about when I was living up here, but it really is. It's almost like a fraternity real club almost where the only people I've ever met who was considered a good old boy were always white.

As an Asian American, I quickly realized if I want to stay down here after I graduate, the thing that you want to be is a good old boy, but given that I've never seen a non-white good old boy that means I'm not going to be part of that club. In my mind, that gave me some insight as to what type of future I should expect. I think looking at the way the sheriff almost defended the shooter by telling that he had a bad day or calling a sex addiction issue. Really, if he had a bad day, how about the gunshot victims?

Then, I don't think of it as a sex addiction issue. I think of it as a murdering innocent victims issue. That's my first point. My second point is just that regarding what should we do moving forward, after Trump got elected four years ago, after the inauguration within weeks, I received two random racial verbal attacks from complete strangers. One, when I was in a business trip in Michigan and another out in my parking lot in Norwalk. That's when it occurred to me-- I've always been a gun enthusiast. I know that's not a popular topic for many of the listeners.

I actually spoke to local police about concealed carrying and they said, "Yes, I would totally do it." I think that Asian-Americans really need to take a real hard look about what it means for us to be able to protect ourselves, where we're going to get help. You hear all these stories that these racial attacks happening in New York, about that gentleman who got spat in the face on the subway. He kept saying, "No one American did anything." Like we can't expect others to come to our rescue and help us. After a certain point, we got to take our safety in our own hands. That people who feel threatened should really consider carrying a loaded firearm responsibly and legally. That's all I wanted to say. Thank you, Brian.

Frank: Thank you. You're absolutely right about the double standard. One of the things and people have actually studied this. There's some professors, they took all these news reports of mass murders. There's no question that the attacker did it. Then, they looked at how the stories play out. Usually, when someone was white, it's, "Oh, the person's mentally ill," or "They're a lone shooter." Something happens, they just snap. When you look-- The killer doing the exact same thing, "This is a bad, bad thing. This is immoral. This is wrong. No matter what your background is." Killing people that way. When the person is white, it's always, "Well, that's an isolated person. That's not like the rest of the community.

When there are minorities, no one starts to say those things. You're also right about these slurs. I can't tell you how often, even now in 2021, even in New York City. In fact with the pandemic, it's come back with a vengeance. Someone goes by and says, "Ching Chong something," or I'm going to use these words. I'm going to do it deliberately because I want to show they don't have any power over me. They call you a chink. They call you a Jap. They call you a gook. It still happens. Sometimes people-- I remember when I was a kid, the adults would say, "Just reply sticks and stones will break my bones, but no words will never hurt me."

I get it. They're just words. Except, those words, they're prelude, they're fighting words. They lead to someone coming after you and you never know. They start with these words. That's how it always starts. It starts with the words and then it escalates from there. It's asymmetrical. Sometimes people say, "I can't just take a joke. Come on. It's just a kid calling you a chink. What's the big deal." It's trivial to the person who isn't the butt of the joke, but to the person who's heard it 100 times and we're sometimes it's led to worse, that is traumatic. Sometimes people say to me, "Oh, come on. You're doing okay. You got a fancy job." Yes, I get it. This is still. Every time, it's like a gut punch.

Every time I got to think, "Man, is this going to be worse than just someone using a slur?" Because for Asian-Americans, the other aspect is a lot of people assume we're like the movie crazy rich Asians. You're well off. I can tell you our students at Queens College, they are not well off. They are like their neighbors. Some of them are suffering. Some of them have food insecurity, housing insecurity. Some of them are middle-class and they're doing okay, but that success is held against them. They're perceived not as immigrants, but as invaders, taking over. Success is used against you and that isn't right. These are folks, they want to do what everyone wants to do.

They want to get ahead the same way that their neighbors want to get ahead. They want their children to do better than them. The context here is there's also this fear of yellow peril. It's the idea, it's been around. You'd see it in comic books. When I was a kid, I remember the Fu Manchu taken over the world. There's this fear that Asia is going to take over. Then Asian-Americans become the representatives of the rise of the East, the decline of the West. There's just this moment in history. There's just so much anti-Asian sentiment. The idea that Asian students are all spies. All of this is just coming together, it's unbelievable.

Brian: We've gone way over our scheduled time to make up for the fact that the first 20 minutes, were all getting the gremlins out of the board and us being able to hear each other. Let me wrap up very briefly on Queens College-specific stuff. First of all, I mentioned that I grew up near Queens College. My brother went there. I've been on the campus many, many times.

Frank: That's great.

Brain: Can you tell us the current size and rough demographics of the Queens College student population, and then just tell us how in-person and how remote you're doing this semester and what the impact has been on your student body? You got to do that in like a minute.

Frank: Sure. I came to Queens College because of the diversity of the borough. We serve everyone. We still believe in the power of American higher education. We're open. We're just online right now, about 99%. We keep the library open because we know people need a safe, quiet place to be able to do these classes remotely. We're going to come back in the fall. We've already announced we'll be in-person, but we're going to do this safely. We're not just all going to rush pell-mell back in. I love Queens. I'm so glad to be here because Queens contains the whole world and we are all New Yorkers. That is what gives me hope, that we're going to rebuild and we want to be a part of that.

Brian: The president of Queens College, Frank Wu. He also wrote the forward to the recent Asian American Bar Association of New York report on anti-Asian acts of hate and including violence that was already in the news in the New York area before Atlanta happened. He's also author of the book, Yellow: Race in America Beyond Black and White. It's been great to have you on today. Sorry, under these circumstances in the world. I apologize again for the extended technical difficulties that we had at the beginning of the segment. We look forward to having you back.

Frank: Thank you. Thank you so much.

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