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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Speaking of some of that cultural nationalism that we were discussing in the last segment, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, GLAAD, reported last month that drag events in the United States faced at least 141 protests and significant threats in 2022. These threats have included the firebombing of a donut shop in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the disruption of a drag bingo fundraiser by armed protesters raising Nazi salutes in Katy, Texas, and a group of about 50 Proud Boys, remember the Proud Boys who Trump infamously told to stand back and stand by, showing up to a Drag Story Hour hosted by a church in Ohio with long guns, helmets, full face masks, and flak jackets as it was reported.

As of December 12, only three states in the country did not have an anti-drag attack or incident to report. New York State had eight according to GLAAD's reporting, but this number doesn't even include some of the most recent incidents that we're about to discuss. The surprise to some people that even in New York City, you can't run a voluntary Drag Story Hour without protesters, maybe we should call them cisgender nationalists, getting in your face.

Many of these protests or threats do revolve around Drag Story Hour in particular, an increasingly common event in which a drag performer entertains families by reading child-appropriate books in libraries or other community centers. These events, which, again, parents are free to take their kids to or not, typically include such left-wing propaganda as The Very Hungry Caterpillar, did you ever read that, Red, which is not about communists, Red: A Crayon's Story, and Brown Bear, Brown Bear, What Do You See? Remember that?

We'll talk in a minute about why these events have been met with backlash and harassment. First, we're going to talk about Drag Story Hour itself because we don't want to take for granted why drag queens would read these books to kids and what the kids might get out of that particular genre of performance. With us now to take us inside Drag Story Hour and give us a better understanding of what it actually entails is Flame, performer and storyteller with Drag Story Hour. Flame, welcome to WNYC. Hello.

Flame Hair: Hi, good morning. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, my name is Flame and I am a storyteller and facilitator with Drag Story Hour, and I'm here to speak to you about my, so far, pretty much wonderful experience with Drag Story Hour.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, and I just saw from my producer that on first reference, I should have called you by a fuller name, Flame Hair. You go by Flame Hair?

Flame Hair: Yes, Flame Hair NYC, Flame for short, and they/them pronouns.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, so for the unfamiliar, Flame, what is Drag Story Hour the organization and why did it come into existence?

Flame Hair: Drag Story Hour came into existence, I would say, maybe about seven, eight years ago. It came to New York around six years ago, I want to say, and I joined about five years ago. It started out in California as far as my understanding. It made its way to New York and then it started spreading inward across the USA because it's gotten very positive responses from a lot of people.

Brian Lehrer: Who goes? Who's your audience?

Flame Hair: Many people go actually, but I really love seeing-- my favorite people to see actually are parents that are there to support their LGBT children or children that they might think might fall under the LGBT umbrella because they want to know how to affirm them, show them that they're loved and respected, and accepted, something that historically has been lacking for many LGBT people, unfortunately. I think that's really wonderful. There are also LGBT parents that are fans of drag and want to come, expose their children to all different kinds of people. Yes, mostly, I would say it's just wonderful families and people that want to create a world of acceptance where people are no longer othered in such a cruel way.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and so certainly much more than parents with specifically LGBTQ-leaning kids because some of the booklets that I read in the intro, those are books for two-year-olds before any gender identity or sexuality has expressed itself, right?

Flame Hair: Sure, yes. Not all books have anything to do with gender identity. Some do and it's up to the storytellers. They pick their favorite books to read. I have two that I really, really love. One of them is Neither by Airlie Anderson, which is a story about a creature that is othered by others. That could be anything from gender, orientation, race. It could really have to do with anything. We all know that as human beings, unfortunately, we tend to other people for the slightest thing. It's a book that shows you that it's okay to be different no matter what different means to you.

Another one of my favorite books to read that is more LGBT-oriented is 'Twas the Night Before Pride by Joanna McClintick. It's a book that's written for children in a child-friendly way about what pride is and how it came to be, which I think is a very important educational tool to use, not just for children, but a lot of the adults come to be educated as well. A lot of the parents come to be educated at our program, so it's just really nice to be able to share that with them.

Brian Lehrer: We can take a few phone calls. Specifically, I'd like for this segment, parents who have taken your kids to a Drag Story Hour event. I'm going fishing for you folks in particular if we happen to have any out there, parents who've taken your kids to Drag Story Hour at any of the libraries or whatever, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Just describe the experience, 212-433-9692. What do you wear when you do this, and does what you wear have any meaning that you're trying to communicate to the children?

Flame Hair: I like to dress very colorful and very fun. My favorite color is red, so I tend to wear red gowns. I'm usually covered from head to toe in these beautiful red ensembles, but I do like to switch it up. Kids respond very positively to bright colors, glitters, sparkles. I think it's fun for them. They're not necessarily seeing a drag performer. They're seeing a character similarly to what they would see going to the Disney World and seeing someone dressed up as Mickey Mouse or Minnie Mouse.

They seem to really, really enjoy seeing us all dressed up. I should say that all storytellers for Drag Story Hour, particularly Drag Story Hour NYC, we are a very, very diverse cast. We have cis men and women. We have trans men and women. We have non-binary folks and people of all different colors, shapes, sizes, genders, orientations, ages. It's very important to point out that we are just people like anyone else.

Some of us are actors playing a role. Some of our cast is trans women that are dressing up in more elaborate version of their counterparts. It's just really, really important to point that part out. I personally like to dress up in very bright, colorful, almost anime attire just because that's where my leanings are. I think that's really fun and cool, and I appreciate it. When I do drag, I'm just trying to live a more fabulous version of myself if that makes sense.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] Yes, I think we all try to live more fabulous versions of ourselves when we do perform it sometimes, right?

Flame Hair: Sure, absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: Are there any questions that you get from parents afterwards or even before that are uncomfortable for which you feel like you have to dispel misconceptions?

Flame Hair: I have not had any uncomfortable moments coming from the parents. If anything, my heart has been touched immensely by just having straight parents there that think that their child might fall under the LGBT umbrella and that they're there to support. They want to know how to better talk to them, how to discuss certain topics. Because let's face it, a lot of LGBT people are born predominantly just straight parents who may have never met an LGBT person. They don't know how to raise queer children.

I think that a really important part of being a member of Drag Story Hour is being able to help educate not just the children, but the adults that come to the programs. One uncomfortable moment that I had was actually examining my own prejudices and biases. It was my third story hour. It was at Elmhurst library. I was a little nervous about how people might react to a drag performer reading to children because, unfortunately, some people don't like that. There was a big man standing in the back of the room without children. He was just staring at me and I'm thinking, "Oh, my gosh. This man is going to shout hateful slurs and try to bash me."

Then at the end of the story hour, he approached me with tears in his eyes and said, "I think this is really wonderful what you were doing because I'm a trans man. When I was a little girl, it would have meant so much for me to have something like this." That was an uncomfortable moment for me just because I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm sitting here judging this man who's there to support us." I think it was a really wonderful moment to be able to realize that we all have some kind of prejudices one way or the other. It's just really great to be able to confront that and learn from that.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Flame Hair: No, I was just going to say, as far as questions from parents, no, they just want to know how to reach out to their kids, how to show more affirmation, more love, support. I would say one of the best things they can do is bring them to Drag Story Hour. Because if I had that as a child, if my parents had been supportive enough to take me to an event like that, that showed me that I'm okay no matter who I am because I was a very self-aware queer child. I started playing "dress-up" when I was four, five, six years old. It's something that parents thought I would grow out of it. Here I am, 42 years old now doing Drag Story Hour.

Brian Lehrer: Hey, here's a parent calling in who has come to your readings. Jonathan in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Hi. I missed something for a second there. I didn't go to the readings myself, but both of my kids did.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, okay. Got you. Sorry.

Jonathan: If that's what you said. I'm not sure.

Brian Lehrer: I misstated. Your kids did. What would you like to say about the experience or ask Flame?

Jonathan: Thank you, Flame. Flame came to both of my kids' schools. I have a fifth-grader and a first-grader within a year apart. Both kids came home talking about the impact on all of them and their friends. The first-grader came home talking about how all the kids have learned a lot about just what kind of self-presentation you can do and what choices you have in your life. The fifth-grader, who is very concerned about LGBTQ+ rights and equity, et cetera, came home being very moved too that this had been brought to their school.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you very much.

Flame Hair: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another parent. Amy in Jackson Heights, you're on WNYC. Hi, Amy.

Amy: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I just wanted to say that I took my daughter to Drag Story Hour at the Jackson Heights branch library years ago, pre-pandemic. It was such a non-issue. I think it took place around Pride Week. It was a full room. It was a really positive experience. It was a fun storytime. It just really wasn't a big deal. My daughter had zero questions. She had a great time. [chuckles] Over the years, we've gotten some more. There was something at the Queens Botanical Garden in our neighborhood on the open streets. It's just been a part of, I don't know, just community life and storytelling and it's been wonderful.

My daughter now is a second-grader, has started becoming more aware about gender identity and is full of questions and curiosity, and mostly just wants to be respectful to the other people in the world who may not identify with the gender that they present as. She just has a lot of questions and curiosity so that she can be welcoming and supportive, not anything negative. It's just been such a positive experience. I'm so surprised and disappointed that this has become such a negative experience for everyone involved.

Brian Lehrer: Amy, thank you very much for your call.

Flame Hair: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to go on now to the negative experience part and let Flame go and talk to a journalist, who's covering the Proud Boys and other protests of these voluntary events. First, Flame from Drag Story Hour, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been great to have you on. Is there any last thing you want to say before you go?

Flame Hair: It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. One last thing I want to point out is a reason why I got involved with Drag Story Hour, which a lot of people, unfortunately, don't talk about. There is a much higher rate for teenage suicide for LGBT kids and a high murder rate for trans women, specifically trans women of color.

The reason why I got involved with Drag Story Hour was to try to educate kids to learn to love and respect each other and love themselves so that they don't grow up to want to harm themselves or others. I think that is such an important part that just isn't talked about often enough. I just wanted to bring that up. Thank you so, so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it. Have a good day.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much. This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are a New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming at wnyc.org. Now, we're joined by Talia Jane, independent reporter covering policing, extremism, and activism. She's covered many of these Drag Story Hour protests in the New York City area at the scene. Talia, welcome to WNYC.

Talia Jane: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: When did you first catch wind about protests of Drag Story Hours right here in the New York City area?

Talia Jane: I caught wind of it before they happened because the group that's been targeting the Drag Story Hours is a group that I've been monitoring for the past year because they've been active with anti-vax protests where they center on disruption and harassment, intimidation, and similar tactics that we're seeing them engage in around Drag Story Hour.

Brian Lehrer: Wait, there's an overlap between anti-vaxxers and people protesting drag storytellers?

Talia Jane: Yes, the overlap is that they are extremely plugged into fear-mongering and disinformation, specifically coming out of far-right spaces.

Brian Lehrer: There have been multiple protest incidents right in New York City, which people might think would be relatively immune compared to, I don't know, South Carolina or somewhere?

Talia Jane: Yes. To date, they have targeted 10 Drag Story Hour events. The first one was on September 24th in Jackson Heights, Queens.

Brian Lehrer: Then there's been Chelsea, I'm looking at a list, 96th Street Manhattan, Staten Island.

Talia Jane: 53rd Street. Yes, they've been all over.

Brian Lehrer: Why exactly are these protesters upset about Drag Story Hour? How do they express their grievance around a voluntary event?

Talia Jane: The way that they explain it is that they feel that these events are somehow exposing children to harm and that it is their moral obligation to protect those children by preventing them from attending this event, by making the space unsafe, by intimidating parents, by targeting the council members who sponsor these events, and just, in general, making the ability to have this function be disrupted in some capacity.

They do this because they think a lot of things are happening that aren't, quite frankly. They think that children are being-- well, they use the word "groomed," but they also will claim that children are being abused in some more physical capacity by the people who are showing up to read books to them because the people who are showing up to read books are dressed in costume. There's a lot of transphobia, a lot of accusations of pedophilia, and things like that that are completely unfounded. That is the motivation for them.

Brian Lehrer: Well, they don't call it phobia for nothing, right? We talk about racism, anti-Semitism. When it comes to this realm, we tend to use the word "phobia," transphobia, homophobia. These people are afraid.

Talia Jane: Yes, they absolutely are. They will say to you directly that they are not transphobic, that they are not queerphobic, but then their behaviors and the rhetoric that they espouse is very much creating broad-sweeping accusations about queer people and about trans people as a whole to accuse them of engaging in evil and nefarious activity that is harming children. That is a definitive phobic action that they're doing. That is a definitively transphobic style of rhetoric. They can tell you that they're not transphobic just the same way that they can tell you that the sky is green.

Brian Lehrer: The sky isn't green? Well, never mind.

Talia Jane: [laughs] Breaking news.

Brian Lehrer: There was a clip going around the internet of law enforcement officers allowing members of the far-right group, the Proud Boys, into the subway station, the big 74th Street, Jackson Heights, Roosevelt Avenue station, without paying their fare at the end of one of these things. Let's take a listen to the audio from this clip that's been going around on the internet. I guess the first voice on here is a police officer, I believe, and then we will hear a Proud Boy.

Brenna Lip: Proud Boys don't have to pay for the fare?

Proud Boy: No, we're special.

Brenna Lip: Proud boys don't have to pay for the fare?

Proud Boy: We're special. Thank you.

Brenna Lip: You don't have to pay for the fare. Wow.

Proud Boy: Appreciate it from your taxes.

Brenna Lip: Proud Boys don't have to pay for the fare.

Proud Boy: No, thank you.

Brenna Lip: That is insane. Proud Boys don't have to pay for the fare.

Proud Boy: $3. $3.

NYPD Officer: I just need you to--

Brenna Lip: Oh, I have to pay for the fare, but they don't? Is that the situation you're saying?

NYPD Officer: That's correct.

Brian Lehrer: Sorry. Obviously, that was not a police officer speaking. That's my error. That was the journalist, Brenna Lip, filming the free entry to the subway station. She was asking, "Proud Boys don't have to pay for the fare? Proud boys don't have to pay for the fare?" Then a Proud Boy responds, "No, we're special," et cetera, et cetera. I assume you've seen that clip, right?

Then, finally, a police officer says, "I just need you to--" meaning he's trying to get the journalist to move away, and the journalist says, "Oh, I have to, but I have to pay my fare, but they don't? Is that the situation you're saying?" The police officer says, "That's correct." Was this a one-off event, or how would you characterize police presence at these protests?

Talia Jane: Unfortunately, I would say that the presence of the Proud Boys was a first-time incident. That was in Jackson Heights. They showed up. There was about 5 or 10 of them alongside the anti-vaxxers, who have been leading the targeted harassments. In terms of police response and how they handle the two sides, there's been situations where the group that is harassing and intimidating and trying to gain entry into the library, trying to disrupt the library services, trying to scare children and parents and patrons, they gain entry. They're not hindered from doing so in any capacity by the NYPD that's present.

The NYPD, for different things, they've said that, "We can't stop them from entering." It wasn't until more recently that I think the NYPD started recognizing that there is an established precedent, that when these people show up to this space, they're not coming to just check out a book. It took three months of sustained targeted harassment for-- I think it honestly took this group targeting council members' home who hosts or who funds Drag Story Hour in his district. It took that for the police to start being like, "Okay, we have to crack down on this. We have to stop giving them an easy out."

Brian Lehrer: There's a line somewhere between your First Amendment rights to free expression to protest something no matter how misinformed we think the premise of that protest is and harassment.

Talia Jane: Yes, correct. The NYPD has given them a significant amount of leeway in terms of interpreting what they are doing as First Amendment rights. They like to claim First Amendment rights while physically menacing and trying to gain entry into a space with the intent to scare people and harm them. It is not that they are expressing concern. It is not that they are engaging in actual protest. Even disruptive protests like we see with Extinction Rebellion, the climate environmentalist group, for example, they have disruptive protests, but they are not actively harming other people.

This group engages in-- they don't have that boundary. They don't care. They literally stalk people. They've doxed city council members. They assume that because they think that what they're doing is patriotic in some weird capacity, they assume that because of that, that what they're doing is protest. Therefore, everything that they are doing is protected under First Amendment rights. Unfortunately, the NYPD, given that they've allowed for a little extra leeway on that, it has resulted in an increase in parents and children and patrons and library staff being exposed to a lot of slurs, a lot of hate rhetoric, a lot of anger and outrage and harm.

Brian Lehrer: We just have 30 seconds left, but you used the word "patriotism" to describe how they see themselves. I've seen the Proud Boys self-describe as, I think, Western nationalists.

Talia Jane: Yes, Western chauvinists.

Brian Lehrer: Western chauvinists, right, which usually indicates a racial thing. They don't want a lot of immigrants who are brown skin Muslims and other racial and religious kinds of nationalism. I think some people might be surprised to hear that this extends to what I might call cisgender nationalism. That gets lumped under this notion of patriotism. You have 30 seconds.

Talia Jane: Sure. A lot of the motivation for these groups, like I mentioned earlier, the anti-vax stuff, a lot of it is informed, generated, uplifted, and backed by efforts to expand white nationalism and Christian nationalism, otherwise referred to as Christofascism, which is an authoritarian form of governance that seeks to have everyone be very much the same. A part of that is abolishing queer people from existence.

The people showing up to protest these things don't realize that that's where they're getting their information from, that that is the intent of the propaganda that they're espousing, but that is ultimately the goal of all of this. We're increasingly recognizing the line between A and B on that. They haven't realized it yet. They refused to acknowledge it, I would say, because it would make them realize that the entirety of what they're doing is illegitimate.

Brian Lehrer: Independent journalist Talia Jane, thank you so much for joining us.

Talia Jane: Thank you, Brian.

 

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