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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We will end today, as we often do around this time, hearing some stories of people in our area, sometimes stories that don't get told publicly very much. If you've ever taken a walk down, say, 125th Street, chances are you've been approached with the words "hair braiding, sweetie," rain or shine. You can find a West African hair braider in Harlem looking for a new customer to bestow with an intricate style. While it's easy to spot the work of these women on the heads of many throughout New York City, little is heard about the many occupational injuries that hair braiders obtain while on the job.

Our guest joining us now, freelance journalist Houreidja. Houreidja Tall- I'm sorry I skipped the last name. Houreidja Tall deeply knows personally of the struggles that hair braiders in New York City face due to the nature of their work. In addition to her reporting on the subject, she's witnessed the toll of hair braiding as a profession, what it's taken on the bodies of those in her family and broader community. Now she shares their often untold stories with us. Houreidja, thanks so much for coming on with us. Welcome to WNYC.

Houreidja: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: To start off, could you give an understanding for people unfamiliar of what the work of a hair braider entails? What does an average day on the job look like?

Houreidja: Sure. The average day of a braider can vary. It usually involves getting up pretty early in the morning. It can involve braiding the hair of customers who have already made an appointment, or assisting colleagues with their braiding, or looking for new customers and negotiating prices with those customers.

Brian Lehrer: I mentioned that you have a personal connection with the West African hair braiding community. You want to talk about that connection a little bit? It's your mom, right?

Houreidja: Yes. My mother is a braider, and the salon was a second home for me growing up. I spent school breaks there. I was there after school watching my mom braid hair, and the daughters of my mom's colleagues were some of my first friends in life. I always knew that hair braiding was a physically taxing job, just by virtue of witnessing my mom. It really sank in during COVID because then Governor Cuomo shut down personal care places like barbershops and hair braiding salons. My mom had no choice but to stay home. It was during that time that I got to see the sheer pain that her body was in and how it had caught up to her over decades.

I realized that many of the women she was working with must have been in similar situations. Coincidentally, I started grad school during COVID, and I went to journalism school, and I got my master's degree in a practice called Engagement Journalism. In the program, we got to choose a community to spend the duration of our time in the program with, and I chose to work with West African hair braiders in Harlem.

I knew that I eventually wanted to write a piece exploring that pain because it hasn't gone away from these braiders. I don't think a lot of people really take the time to think about what braiders go through.

Brian Lehrer: When journalists come from many different communities, as they should, reporting often starts close to home. When we see someone on the street with a hairstyle like long box braids or Senegalese twists, we often don't think about the painstaking work that goes into that style. You talked a little bit about what the day looks like. How about the individual client? How long does it take a hair braider to work on a single customer? What goes into it that might contribute to injuries down the road?

Houreidja: That really varies in terms of how long it takes to complete a style. Simpler styles like simple cornrows without extensions could maybe take an hour or two, but more intricate styles like waist-length knotless box braids which take a lot more time and attention can take maybe five or six hours. It really varies.

Some of the injuries that braiders might experience, in my experience talking to Braiders, I've found that hand, back, and joint injuries are pretty common, and eye strain as well. Feet injuries from standing all day tend to be the types of injuries they experience.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we have a few minutes for calls. If anybody has a personal story to tell, if you are or ever were a hair braider, have you experienced any long-lasting injuries? Were you able to solve any of them? 212-433-WNYC. What aspects of your job make it difficult for you to live a healthy life? Anything else you want to say? It can be good things about the job too, but really focusing on the occupational risks of hair braiders here that rarely get talked about anywhere.

We can take calls and texts. 212-433-WNYC. This can be about yourself, or a member of your family, or a friend, customers. Anyone with questions can also call about West African hair braiding and the occupational hazards therein. 221-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for Houreidja Tall, freelance journalist who is writing about this now.

I wonder if you can talk about licensing because I understand that in New York State, hair braiders are required to obtain a license to practice, but many West African stylists forego this process. Are there good and bad things like protective and not protective things, or burdensome things about licensing?

Houreidja: In my experience in speaking to braiders, I've found that they are overwhelmingly interested in being licensed, but the thing is, they just don't know where to start. They don't know the process to take in terms of obtaining licensure. There's also a time and financial investment that they may find a little bit prohibitive. It's a skill they already possess, so they don't necessarily understand why, if they're already 10, 15 years in the business, why they need to take the time out to become certified in something they already know how to do.

Brian Lehrer: Does being licensed protect them in any way? If they're employees, does the owner of the store need to engage in any kind of occupational safety practices for hair braiders or anything like that?

Houreidja: A lot of the braiders, in my experience, work as almost independent contractors or day laborers in a way. They are working for themselves and they rent a chair out in the salon. The salon merely provides the space, if that makes sense. I'm sure that licensing does have its benefits. I don't think licensing is an awful thing at all, but I don't know if licensing-- I think it will serve to further formalize the profession, but I don't know if it will provide things such as health insurance or paid time off. I don't know if those things are inherent to obtaining a license.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Marge in Tenafly has a question. Marge, you're WNYC with Houreidja Tall. Hi.

Marge: Hi. My question is, how do the injuries from this differ from those of any other hairdresser?

Brian Lehrer: I don't know that they do differ, but I think the reason I chose to focus on this is because of the demographics of the braiders. These braiders are women who largely are undocumented or were undocumented at one point. They often find themselves in this profession because it is a job that is relatively accessible when they first come to the States. It's a skill they already possess. It's a community that comes built-in which I think is necessary for anyone who comes to the country to find a community. Because these people are largely undocumented, they don't feel as if they can take time off to recover because when they're not working, they're not making money.

The combination of all those things, it compacts the injuries and makes them a lot worse than if they felt like they could go to the doctor or speak freely about the pain they're experiencing.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Bobbi in Summit New Jersey. You're on WNYC. Hi, Bobby.

Bobbi: Hi, there. I'm originally from Lagos, Nigeria, where when I go back home, sometimes I get my hair braided. The experience there is multiple braiders doing one customer's hair at the same time because then, it takes about two hours. I'm wondering if that reduces the strain on the body versus one person here doing the braiding. Of course, the six hours spent nonstop, almost sometimes without bathroom breaks, causes more strain. Then I also wanted to talk about the economics of doing the hair back in West Africa versus hair in New Jersey, for instance.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. Talk about that. What do you want to say in terms of economic comparison?

Bobbi: Well, the cost of labor in Nigeria is much cheaper, and so you can get a full hair of very intricate braids done for maybe $50 in Lagos, Nigeria where here, it could cost upward of $200. I'm wondering is there possibly the opportunity to somehow start a union so that hair braiders [unintelligible 00:10:48] then have some access to medical care.

Houreidja: Addressing the first part of your comments about multiple braiders working on heads, I definitely see that that is something that happens sometimes here, but oftentimes when a customer books their style, I think that they're booking it with the impression that it will be done by one person just for consistency of parting, that sort of thing. I think that's why that's not as a common occurrence here. Also, if multiple breeders are doing that, then you have to split that $200 among three or four braiders.

The second part of what you were saying about a union, that was actually something I addressed over the course of reporting my piece. I spoke with the executive director of African Communities Together, which is a New York City-based advocacy organization for African immigrants. I asked him about unions, and if there would be a benefit to African braiders creating unions. I think a concern about unions is who would they be bargaining against? Yes, who would they be bargaining against? That was the main concern.

Brian Lehrer: Against themselves as individuals, or against other maybe African immigrant small business owners. Yet one of the interesting things to me is that in your search for solutions to these injuries, you spoke with one licensed braider, Ngone Sow, if I'm saying the name right, who owns her own shop in Brooklyn. She pointed to the industry-wide protections that nail technicians fought for and won as possible examples for braiders. I'm just curious what you think the lessons can be from the nail industry.

Houreidja: For context, a number of years ago, there was this piece on The New York Times about how nail salon workers are exploited, and are exposed to a lot of dangerous chemicals in the process of doing nails, and how they're often underpaid and exploited.

As a result of that, a lot of protections were put together. A New York City task force was put together to address the needs of these nail techs. Minimum wage was guaranteed. There were protections put in place to prevent wage theft. I don't know the most about nail techs, but I'm under the impression that they tend to work for a boss whereas with braiders, they tend to work for themselves.

Brian Lehrer: Some lessons to be learned, but some-

Houreidja: Yes, I think there are parallels, but I think--

Brian Lehrer: - differences too that need to be navigated.

Houreidja: Yes, that's for sure.

Brian Lehrer: Houreidja Tall, a New York City-based freelance journalist. You can read her piece Who Will Stand Up for the Hair Braiders in Harper's Bazaar. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. This was great.

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Houreidja: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: The Brian Lehrer Show is produced by Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen handles our Daily Politics podcast. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. Our interns this summer are Brandon St. Luce, who produced that hair braiding segment, way to go Brandon, and Katarina Engst. Juliana Fonda and Milton Ruiz are at the audio controls. I'm Brian Lehrer. Stay tuned for All Of It.

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